Covenant vs Dispensation

[CrowCross]

So what? I am aware of that. How is it relevant to the conversation. My gosh, the dance that is done to avoid dealing with things!

You were talking about "lenses"....I simply presented another lense.

 

[Arial]

You were talking about "lenses"....I simply presented another lense.

Mod Hat: Consider this your final warning to stay on topic and to address the content of posts. You are in violation of rules 2.1, 2.2 , 3.1, 4.3, 4.7. I suggest you read them so you will learn how to appropriately engage in conversations on this forum. It isn't like what you are used to.

 

[Arial]

@CrowCross

1. What was God's purpose I giving anyone the Holy Spirit in any place in the OT--not just some in Israel during the Sinai Covenant?
2. Can anyone have saving faith in God apart from the Holy Spirit?
3.Is the giving of the Holy Spirit in the New Covenat, dispensational or covenantal?
4. Is it God dealing with humanity in a different way, or is it a covenantal relationship?

Asked in post #20 as per your statement that God deals with people differently in different dispensations, and your response that for once he didn't give the Holy Spirit to every believer.

 

[Arial]

@CrowCross

The questions in post #23 are questions that have definite answers that are found in the scriptures, and are directly related to the OP topic. Answers that are God's truths. They do not change according to what "lens" one is looking through. God's truth is not relative. Therefore, simply answering the questions in a respectful and thoughtful way would not be off topic, and would not incur rules violations.

 

[Arial]

@CrowCross

1. What was God's purpose I giving anyone the Holy Spirit in any place in the OT--not just some in Israel during the Sinai Covenant?
2. Can anyone have saving faith in God apart from the Holy Spirit?
3.Is the giving of the Holy Spirit in the New Covenat, dispensational or covenantal?
4. Is it God dealing with humanity in a different way, or is it a covenantal relationship?

Asked in post #20 as per your statement that God deals with people differently in different dispensations, and your response that for once he didn't give the Holy Spirit to every believer.

@CrowCross

1. Forward movement of his purpose of the Covenant of Redemption through the Seed that would crush the serpents head. Not all those he covenanted with in this way were Seed bearers, but if you look at the primary ones, Noah, Abraham, David, you will see that they are. And the others, such as the prophets, were within a covenant relationship God had established in the Sinai Covenant. So it was serving the same purpose.

2.No. John 3:1-15.

3. It is a covenant relationship between God and believers. Not a dispensational non-relationship. It is post first advent, crucifixion, resurrection, ascension, exaltation. Christ, the mediator of a new covenant, making the old covenant obsolete because he is the fulfillment of all the promises of the OC, making it no longer necessary. It had served its purpose. And what was that purpose? Christ and him crucified.

4. It is a covenant relationship. (Romans 3: 20,24,28; Phil 3:9; Gal 2:16-21; Heb 8:13).

 

[CrowCross]

@CrowCross

1. Forward movement of his purpose of the Covenant of Redemption through the Seed that would crush the serpents head. Not all those he covenanted with in this way were Seed bearers, but if you look at the primary ones, Noah, Abraham, David, you will see that they are. And the others, such as the prophets, were within a covenant relationship God had established in the Sinai Covenant. So it was serving the same purpose.

2.No. John 3:1-15.

3. It is a covenant relationship between God and believers. Not a dispensational non-relationship. It is post first advent, crucifixion, resurrection, ascension, exaltation. Christ, the mediator of a new covenant, making the old covenant obsolete because he is the fulfillment of all the promises of the OC, making it no longer necessary. It had served its purpose. And what was that purpose? Christ and him crucified.

4. It is a covenant relationship. (Romans 3: 20,24,28; Phil 3:9; Gal 2:16-21; Heb 8:13).

You're wrong and I'm not going to argue with you.
You'll find a way to say I'm not answering your question...then try to censor me by claiming I'm changing the topic.

Basically I'm tired o playing your games.

 

[Arial]

You're wrong and I'm not going to argue with you.
You'll find a way to say I'm not answering your question...then try to censor me by claiming I'm changing the topic.

Basically I'm tired o playing your games.

If I am wrong, then answer the questions with the right answer. What I do about it is beside the point. But if you actually answer the questions, I will not say you haven't. And me disagreeing or challenging your answer, is not saying you haven't answered. I have never done that. Either that, or just admit you don't have the answers because you never thought about it. These posts that paint me as the culprit rather than your inability or inadequacy to answer the questions does not fool one single person.

You should be able to answer those questions without changing the subject by laying down half a dozen rabbit trails. And there are not multiple valid answers to any of those questions. You have to find the answers in Scripture.

Perhaps you have already noticed that a covenant interpretive framework as opposed to a dispensational interpretive framework is much more valid, as it can produce answers to those questions that do not need to begin giving interpretations of various prophecies or things in Revelation (which is why all those rabbit trails come in that I mentioned) in order to validate itself. It's foundation is the self revealed God, and what the Bible us---one continuous working in history (God entering into history) fulfilling the Covenant of Redemption. One redemption---not two. One people of God, not two.

 

[CrowCross]

@CrowCross

1. What was God's purpose I giving anyone the Holy Spirit in any place in the OT--not just some in Israel during the Sinai Covenant?

God typically gave the Holy Spirit to certain people to accomplish Gods will...whether they be a prophet, priest, king or spread it out amongst a group of people around Moses. THAT IS HOW GOD WORKED IN THAT DISPENSATION.

Currently all believers receive the Holy Spirit. It started at the day of Pentecost.

2. Can anyone have saving faith in God apart from the Holy Spirit?

No.

3.Is the giving of the Holy Spirit in the New Covenat, dispensational or covenantal?

Gods covenant runs through all the dispensations.

4. Is it God dealing with humanity in a different way, or is it a covenantal relationship?

As I said above....Gods covenant runs through all the dispensations.

Asked in post #20 as per your statement that God deals with people differently in different dispensations, and your response that for once he didn't give the Holy Spirit to every believer.

Do you believe that throughout mans history from creation to now God changed the way to become saved? I don't.
You seem to post as if dispensationalist do.

Perhaps you have already noticed that a covenant interpretive framework as opposed to a dispensational interpretive framework is much more valid, as it can produce answers to those questions that do not need to begin giving interpretations of various prophecies or things in Revelation (which is why all those rabbit trails come in that I mentioned) in order to validate itself. It's foundation is the self revealed God, and what the Bible us---one continuous working in history (God entering into history) fulfilling the Covenant of Redemption. One redemption---not two. One people of God, not two.

Dispensationalist do not claim there are two people of God.

 

[Arial]

God typically gave the Holy Spirit to certain people to accomplish Gods will...whether they be a prophet, priest, king or spread it out amongst a group of people around Moses. THAT IS HOW GOD WORKED IN THAT DISPENSATION.

Then wouldn't it be more logical to build the "house" (the Covenant of Redemption as it progresses through history, with its theology and the other "ologies" and doctrines) around covenant, rather than a time period (dispensation)? What is the purpose of interpreting scripture (all of it) through the way in which God dealt with men in different time periods? Why do that when the entire OT (not just the Sinai Covenant) is called Old Testament (Covenant) and the same with the New Testament (covenant)?

The giving of the Holy Spirit in the OT did not have anything to do with what dispensation it was. The giving of the Holy Spirit to New Covenant believers has to do with the covenant, not the dispensation. It is part of the covenant, not the dispensation, other than that the time period can be distinguished by the advent of Christ and his work. It isn't that it is a different dispensation. It is that Christ fulfilled the old making it obsolete.

Gods covenant runs through all the dispensations.

Agreed, and I said as much. There is no relationship between God and man without a covenant he establishes. So covenant is what one should be looking through when interpreting scripture. This has to do with interpretation of Scripture. And there is no doubt that those who look through the lens of dispensationalism and those who look through the lens of covenant, arrive at a great many differences in their interpretations, particularly when it comes to interpreting the OT. And because of the differences in that regard, the end times eschatalogical interpretations are vastly different.

As I said above....Gods covenant runs through all the dispensations.

That does not answer the question of whether the focus is on God dealing with people in different ways or on the covenant relationship. How did he treat Noah differently than he treated Adam? How did he treat Abraham differently than he treated David? How did he treat New Covenant believers differently than he treated Abraham, or Isaac, or Jacob? But what is it that all those named (but not only them) have in common? A covenantal relationship with God, just as NC believers do.

Do you believe that throughout mans history from creation to now God changed the way to become saved? I don't.
You seem to post as if dispensationalist do.

No I don't believe that. And that is not what I have been talking about. I have been talking about the difference between covenant and dispensation interpretive frameworks.

Dispensationalist do not claim there are two people of God.

As long as they claim that national Israel is the people of God, and the Church is another people of God, they do present two peoples of God. Whether they claim that they do or not is beside the point.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Tell me why I should read them?

Because it's free and you have free time, and this Christian online with whom you share a faith in Christ, said it was an awesome book written by people learned and Spirit-filled.

Plus, it will help you better understand what the Protestant Church by and large has historically taught.

https://archive.org/details/farascurseisfoun0000will/mode/1up