Looking At T.U.L.I.P. By Calvin

[ReverendRV]

Ooooh, thats a tough saying.

We're Elected before we've done anything Good to deserve it, and we're Reprobate before we've done anything Bad to deserve Reprobation...

 

[Carbon]

We're Elected before we've done anything Good to deserve it, and we're Reprobate before we've done anything Bad to not deserve it...

I agree. It's just a solid piece of meat. I can see a lot of choking on that.

 

[ChristB4us]

No, they are Reprobate before they're born...

As the elect, are but not every elect will be ready for why they are reprobate. That does not mean they are not saved.

The unsaved cannot be disqualified when they are not running the race to even qualify to be partakers of the firstfruit of the resurrection.

 

[ChristB4us]

We're Elected before we've done anything Good to deserve it, and we're Reprobate before we've done anything Bad to deserve it...

@Carbon

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

 

[ReverendRV]

As the elect, are but not every elect will be ready for why they are reprobate. That does not mean they are not saved.

The unsaved cannot be disqualified when they are not running the race to even qualify to be partakers of the firstfruit of the resurrection.

The Elect are never Reprobate, because Election is finalized in Eternity before we're born; without our input. Reprobation is also finalized in Eternity before those people are born; without their input...

 

[Carbon]

The Elect are never Reprobate, because Election is finalized in Eternity before we're born. Reprobation is also finalized in Eternity before those people are born...

Stop making so much sense.

 

[armylngst]

As the elect, are but not every elect will be ready for why they are reprobate. That does not mean they are not saved.

The unsaved cannot be disqualified when they are not running the race to even qualify to be partakers of the firstfruit of the resurrection.

Methinks you are not understanding what Paul means by disqualified. For instance, if you preach that one must not commit immorality, but you get your feet wet now and then, why would you consider yourself qualified to be preaching that? I would say you disqualified yourself from that ministry.

 

[ReverendRV]

Methinks you are not understanding what Paul means by disqualified. For instance, if you preach that one must not commit immorality, but you get your feet wet now and then, why would you consider yourself qualified to be preaching that? I would say you disqualified yourself from that ministry.

This is the thing; because of Original Sin, everyone begins disqualified...

So God can disqualify us before we're born; and he does...

 

[armylngst]

This is the thing; because of Original Sin, everyone begins disqualified...

So God can disqualify us before we're born; and he does...

That isn't what Paul is dealing with here. He is speaking of why he buffets his body, (self-discipline) and fights himself each day that he might not disqualify himself from service. I may have the wrong passage, but here is what I am talking about:

"24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may [i]obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize [j]is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified."

 

[ReverendRV]

That isn't what Paul is dealing with here. He is speaking of why he buffets his body, (self-discipline) and fights himself each day that he might not disqualify himself from service. I may have the wrong passage, but here is what I am talking about:

"24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may [i]obtain it. 25 And everyone who competes for the prize [j]is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. 26 Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. 27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified."

It's true we're born disqualified, and it's true we can become disqualified after Faith; but this has never happened to the Unconditional Elect; and never will. It's also true that Reprobates are disqualified before they are born...

 

[armylngst]

It's true we're born disqualified, and it's true we can become disqualified after Faith; but this has never happened to the Unconditional Elect; and never will. It's also true that Reprobates are disqualified before they are born...

This disqualification is not loss of salvation. It has to do with one's testimony and witness. It goes to the passage that says those who teach, do you not teach yourselves? If you teach do not steal, do you steal? That idea. It does not affect your salvation. It can happen to the unconditional elect, however if they take Paul's words to heart, it should never go that way. It has been given to each of us a measure of faith. Some people are stronger in faith than others.

 

[CCShorts]

Ephesians 1 says that God did it "out of the good pleasure of His will." I can't think of a more straight forward way of saying "He felt like it". No merit, no conditions. He, given His position as Creator of the universe, took it upon Himself to choose people He felt like spending eternity with, and set no conditions on it.

Please correct me if I’m wrong but this sounds like you are describing a scenario where there was a pool of “people”, already existing, and God just “chose” from that pool based on a “feeling”…

Is that your understanding of Unconditional Election?

…

 

[makesends]

@Carbon & @makesends & @preacher4truth & @David1701

Reprobates as in what? Disqualified? Castaways?

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Textus Receptus Greek Text King James Bible With Strongs Dictionary From this link: at 1 Corinthians 9:27 for the Greek word "adokimos" which castaway was derived from in English has been defined as "from a - a 1 (as a negative particle) and dokimoV - dokimos 1384; unapproved, i.e. rejected; by implication, worthless (literally or morally):--castaway, rejected, reprobate."
NASB has it as disqualified.
1 Corinthians 9:27 but I strictly discipline (H)my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified. NASB

You all want to talk about what Paul is saying here & why he would even say it that it could happen to him?

Not saying he is talking about loss of salvation, but loss of being partakers of the firstfruit of the resurrection of being that vessel unto honor in His House which is still by His grace 7 by His help when we look to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily.

I'm guessing that, since you think this doesn't contradict your thesis, it is proof of it?

 

[armylngst]

Please correct me if I’m wrong but this sounds like you are describing a scenario where there was a pool of “people”, already existing, and God just “chose” from that pool based on a “feeling”…

Is that your understanding of Unconditional Election?

…

The verse in question is not easy to deal with. However, it is people God foreknew, which is either everyone who will ever exist or just the group that He chose for Himself. If you decide to use the parable of the wheat and tares in figuring out, it becomes really interesting.

 

[ChristB4us]

The Elect are never Reprobate, because Election is finalized in Eternity before we're born; without our input. Reprobation is also finalized in Eternity before those people are born; without their input...

In God's eye. that is true but in our eyes, is why Paul gave this warning as something that could happen to himself if he did not by His help, bring his own body under subjection for he too can be a castaway and not just lose the reward of the crown.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Peter gave the same warning.

1 Peter 1:1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Try as I might, I cannot find the term "elect" in Revelation to confirm that it also applies to the unrepentant saved believers left behind. Saints can be found to apply them to those left behind like in Revelation 18th chapter at the fall of Babylon, but not elect.

By the scriptures above, it would seems to confirm that the elect are the firstfruits of the resurrection that ran the race by faith in Jesus Christ to finish.

I am open to any scripture that would testify to any one resurrected after the great tribulation as the elect also, because somewhen along the way, I had thought I had come across a scripture or two that seems to testify of those saints left behind as the elect also, and so I may be wrong.

 

[ChristB4us]

Methinks you are not understanding what Paul means by disqualified. For instance, if you preach that one must not commit immorality, but you get your feet wet now and then, why would you consider yourself qualified to be preaching that? I would say you disqualified yourself from that ministry.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

If the consequence is castaway & the reward is a crown for running that race, then it does not apply to how we are preaching in life down here but how we are abiding in Him while preaching at the time for when He comes as the Bridegroom.

Otherwise, why would Paul says those who repent form iniquity have purged themselves to be vessels unto honor & are meet for the Master's use?

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
So no matter how many falls a believer makes, he or she is not to give up, call on Him for forgiveness and help to continue running that race.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2 Timohy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

 

[makesends]

We're Elected before we've done anything Good to deserve it, and we're Reprobate before we've done anything Bad to deserve Reprobation...

Agreed. Not only by logic does that work —i.e. by simple default, if one is elect when created, those that are not elect are reprobate— but it also works, by imputation. Adam's guilt imputed to all.

 

[ChristB4us]

This is the thing; because of Original Sin, everyone begins disqualified...

So God can disqualify us before we're born; and he does...

But you cannot know that. And you should not say that because the devil would like to make a habitual sinner give up every time he or she falls of the wagon. As I am sure those unbelievers & Christians in Alcoholic Anonymous & Narcotics Anonymous or Gamblers Anonymous & Sex Addicts will be religious in in "keeping that commitment" & quit when their higher power does not seem to be helping them to keep that commitment; this is the reason why even regular Christians trying to keep their commitment to follow Christ condemn themselves as not serious enough to follow Him by how they fail in that commitment.

We are not to follow Him by keeping that commitment or promise, because no matter how much the spirit is willing, the flesh is weak therefore what is impossible for man, is possible with God thru Christ Jesus, AND SO we are to rest in Him & His New Covenant to us that He will help us to follow Him as our Good Shepherd & Friend when we trust Him to finish His work in us to His glory.

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2 Timohy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

The crowns we shall receive in Heaven are His crowning achievements upon us for why no flesh shall glory in His Presence & why we would cast those crowns at His feet.

 

[ChristB4us]

It's true we're born disqualified, and it's true we can become disqualified after Faith; but this has never happened to the Unconditional Elect; and never will. It's also true that Reprobates are disqualified before they are born...

Again, no one can know that but God for why no one should give up in running that race everyday looking to Him for help to do this.

1 Peter 4:1Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This applies to those saints left behind as He will finish His work in them too, albeit they will wish they had turned to Him for help in running that race daily.

 

[makesends]

But you cannot know that. And you should not say that because the devil would like to make a habitual sinner give up every time he or she falls of the wagon. As I am sure those unbelievers & Christians in Alcoholic Anonymous & Narcotics Anonymous or Gamblers Anonymous & Sex Addicts will be religious in in "keeping that commitment" & quit when their higher power does not seem to be helping them to keep that commitment; this is the reason why even regular Christians trying to keep their commitment to follow Christ condemn themselves as not serious enough to follow Him by how they fail in that commitment.

We are not to follow Him by keeping that commitment or promise, because no matter how much the spirit is willing, the flesh is weak therefore what is impossible for man, is possible with God thru Christ Jesus, AND SO we are to rest in Him & His New Covenant to us that He will help us to follow Him as our Good Shepherd & Friend when we trust Him to finish His work in us to His glory.

Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2 Timohy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

The crowns we shall receive in Heaven are His crowning achievements upon us for why no flesh shall glory in His Presence & why we would cast those crowns at His feet.

Your post here seems to assume that all sin is conscious sin.

Also, the fact that some may take something to be an excuse for them to continue to sin, is irrelevant to the point. The truth is always good, even when God uses it to cause some to turn against it or even to misuse it.