Looking At T.U.L.I.P. By Calvin

[ChristB4us]

But what does it mean that they were not ready? By any reasonable definition I can come up with, it has to do with perfection; therefore, perfection by imputation/identification with Christ, or actual personal perfection. Actual personal perfection can never be good enough, thus, we are talking about the state of salvation and that, by election. If about salvation, then those who are not ready are NOT still saved.

Luke 12:40-49 KJV Jesus is warning believers to be ready or else be cut off to have their portions with unbelievers whereby His servants will get stripes per the knowledge they had for not being ready and lesser stripes for the lack of knowledge for not being ready, but stripes they shall get.

John 15:1-8 KJV Jesus warns that when a disciple stops abiding in Him to bear fruit, they can be cut off & cast into the fire; as said fire is that which He will send on the earth per Luke 12:49.

1 Corinthians 3:10-17 KJV Paul warns that every believer needs to take heed what they build on that foundation as it will be judged in that day verse 13 whereby if we defile the temple of God, God will destroy that physical bodies hence physical death per verses 16-17 but the spirit is still saved per verse 15.

Revelation 2:18-25 KJV Jesus is warning one of His 7 churches that if they do not repent of their "fornication", they will be cast into the bed of the coming great tribulation for how God will reward every man according to his work of the flesh on that foundation which is physical death.

2 Timothy 2:18-22 KJV & 2 Corinthians 5:7-11 KJV So from all of this, I see that day of judgment, the BEMA Judgment seat, is when Jesus will judge His House first at the pre great tribulation rapture event, receiving the vessels unto honor that departed from iniquity to the Marriage Supper above & leaving behind unrepentant saints & former believers to die, but their spirits will be with the Lord in heaven to await for their resurrection after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House, vessels of wood & earth but still in His House.

Luke 21:33-36 KJV & Luke 14:15-24 KJV These 2 references also warns how we are to pray for help that we are not overcharged by the cares of this life that the day does not take us unaware for it can be a snare for all that dwells on the earth at the time of the rapture event.

Luke 17:26-37 KJV We are not to even treasure anything on this earth that we would be tempted to go back to get it when He appears as verses 31 & 32 warns us of that.

Luke 14:25-35 KJV When the Bridegroom comes, we need His help to just leave everything and everyone we love behind.

So when we are called to be ready.. this is not looking to us to get ourselves ready, but looking to Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd & Friend, trusting Him to get us ready and willing to go for when the Bridegroom comes.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

I'm praying and trusting Him to have me ready and willing to go because I do need His help everyday to forgive my enemies, & to let go.

 

[ChristB4us]

No. When I said Feeding the Nations is a good thing, that was my opinion; sorry...

Let me pull over at a Rest Stop...

So it seems to me that you agree with the Doctrine of Total Depravity as I have described it; right? As I said earlier, Total Depravity is probably the most widely accepted point of Calvinism...

I believe we are in agreement since I recognize that my believing in Jesus Christ is a manifested work of the Father for how I am saved by grace.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[ChristB4us]

There is also the meaning of "God's foreknowledge" to mention. The writer says "not based on foreknowledge", which I will grant if the term is only meant as something like "seeing the future". But the Biblical use of it, in complete agreement even with all good philosophical "attributes of God", invokes God active intentions toward, and causation of, future facts and events. I find pretty much all valid commentaries on the principle of the Greek and Hebrew translated such ways as "God's foreknowledge" to say the same.

I can see God's purpose by foreknowledge as our lives are written in the book.

Psalm 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

Psalm 139:15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. 17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 

[ReverendRV]

I believe we are in agreement since I recognize that my believing in Jesus Christ is a manifested work of the Father for how I am saved by grace.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Awesome! That was a nice drive Let me take us downtown...

Perhaps you are a One Point Calvinist now, holding to the T in TULIP. The U stands for Unconditional Election...

Grace is defined as the Unmerited Favor of God; right? Can you think of anything about Salvation that we Merit?

 

[makesends]

Luke 12:40-49 KJV Jesus is warning believers to be ready or else be cut off to have their portions with unbelievers whereby His servants will get stripes per the knowledge they had for not being ready and lesser stripes for the lack of knowledge for not being ready, but stripes they shall get.

John 15:1-8 KJV Jesus warns that when a disciple stops abiding in Him to bear fruit, they can be cut off & cast into the fire; as said fire is that which He will send on the earth per Luke 12:49.

1 Corinthians 3:10-17 KJV Paul warns that every believer needs to take heed what they build on that foundation as it will be judged in that day verse 13 whereby if we defile the temple of God, God will destroy that physical bodies hence physical death per verses 16-17 but the spirit is still saved per verse 15.

Revelation 2:18-25 KJV Jesus is warning one of His 7 churches that if they do not repent of their "fornication", they will be cast into the bed of the coming great tribulation for how God will reward every man according to his work of the flesh on that foundation which is physical death.

2 Timothy 2:18-22 KJV & 2 Corinthians 5:7-11 KJV So from all of this, I see that day of judgment, the BEMA Judgment seat, is when Jesus will judge His House first at the pre great tribulation rapture event, receiving the vessels unto honor that departed from iniquity to the Marriage Supper above & leaving behind unrepentant saints & former believers to die, but their spirits will be with the Lord in heaven to await for their resurrection after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House, vessels of wood & earth but still in His House.

Luke 21:33-36 KJV & Luke 14:15-24 KJV These 2 references also warns how we are to pray for help that we are not overcharged by the cares of this life that the day does not take us unaware for it can be a snare for all that dwells on the earth at the time of the rapture event.

Luke 17:26-37 KJV We are not to even treasure anything on this earth that we would be tempted to go back to get it when He appears as verses 31 & 32 warns us of that.

Luke 14:25-35 KJV When the Bridegroom comes, we need His help to just leave everything and everyone we love behind.

So when we are called to be ready.. this is not looking to us to get ourselves ready, but looking to Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd & Friend, trusting Him to get us ready and willing to go for when the Bridegroom comes.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

I'm praying and trusting Him to have me ready and willing to go because I do need His help everyday to forgive my enemies, & to let go.

Here I only seeing you attempting to prove or continue your thesis, but you aren't answering my objection.

 

[Carbon]

End of quote from link

I agree with this part but clarity in application is that although God must do all the work, in the life of the believer, they can hinder His work by sowing to the flesh in reaping corruption.

I'm not sure how you can say they can reap corruption if you agree with TULIP.

just as heresy is a work of the flesh. which can also include by resorting to their own power in living the Christian life like keeping a commitment or a promise to follow Christ as if they can finish by the flesh and by their will, what was begun with the Spirit.

The Christian life is a life of mortifying the flesh and sanctification. Living by and in our own power is the desire of the flesh which must be mortified, and as the Spirit does His work of sanctifying, we continue to mortify.

God will finish His work in those that build wood, stubble, and hay on that foundation that defiles the temple of God for why they will die per verses 16-17 in that day per verse 13, but their spirits are saved per verse 15 of 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 albeit left behind at the pre great tribulation rapture event for that day when they die.

Personally, I'm an Amil, I believe the rapture takes place at the second coming. I just though I would share that so you may see the different understandings of this.

They will be resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House for not departing from iniquity per 2 Timothy 2:19-21 before the Bridegroom had come, thus being damned as vessels of wood & earth to serve the King of kings on earth.

It is not a works salvation because when those are left behind for not being ready, they are still saved for why they are still in His House as God will finish His work even in them that were not ready when the Bridegroom comes.

 

[Carbon]

That sure reads as God picks those whom He will draw unto the Son ( John 6:44 ) to reveal His son to them ( Matthew 11:25-27 )

Unconditionally. But it is conditioned on God's good pleasure and will.

by having foreknowledge of who would prefer their evil deeds for God to not choose them over choosing those who would want to come to the light to be reproved of their evil deeds.

Huh? Are you saying God through foreknowledge God saw who would prefer their evil deeds, and therefore did not choose them? If so that just destroys the meaning of "unconditional election" and not to mention, distorts the true meaning of foreknowledge.

 

[ReverendRV]

Here I only seeing you attempting to prove or continue your thesis, but you aren't answering my objection.

Ask him to give you the Steering Wheel of the Conversation, and ask him to go on a ride with you down a road you want to take...

I've learned a LONG time ago, nothing gets solved when the passenger in the discussion is always reaching over and grabbing the Steering Wheel away from you...

 

[Carbon]

From the Link in the OP

"L - Stands for Limited Atonement
Limited atonement is the view that Jesus Christ died only for the sins of the Elect, according to John Calvin.

According to scripture actually. Calvin just pointed that out in his teachings.

Support for this belief comes from verses that say Jesus died for "many," such as Matthew 20:28 and Hebrews 9:28. This point is one of the more controversial beliefs of Calvinism.

There are so many more passages and teaching that it would take quite some time to go through at least the ones that come to mind.

Those who teach "Four Point Calvinism" believe Christ died not for just the Elect but for the entire world. They cite these verses, among others: John 3:16, Acts 2:21,1 Timothy 2:3-4, and 1 John 2:2. End of quote from link

4 pointers are not Calvinists. 4 pointers are those who do not agree with Calvinism. It has nothing to do with their being a Christian, just not Calvinists.

If I am understanding this correctly, this seems to indicate that those that teach Four Point Calvinism do not agree with this Limited atonement as taught by Calvin and so it looks like even here, not everyone that consider them to be Calvinist, agree with everything taught by Calvin.

The "L" seems to be one that many have an issue with. We believe in what God has to say, we do agree with much of what Calvin taught. Because he also agreed with God's word.

At any rate, I believe Christ providing one time sacrifice for sins and thus the offer of the atonement is offered to all as that atoement has the ability to save all but it is only applied to those when they believe in Jesus Christ.

I disagree.

The atonement isn't an offer. Christ's sacrifice did not make salvation possible. It was a definite atonement atoning those for whom Christ died .No more, no less.

It is akin to a doctor offering an antidote for the poison to save his patient, but if the patient does not believe it and thus do not apply the antidote, they will die without it.

Not even close. Doctoring is not a practice of God. All people born are not born sick, drowning, dying of poison, etc... According to scripture not Calvin, we are all born dead, spiritually dead. And the dead can do nothing for themselves, not even ask for help. The only way to help the dead is to give them new life.

 

[Carbon]

In conclusion, John Calvin's doctrine of Unconditional Election teaches that God, out of His sovereign will and without any consideration of merit, chooses certain individuals for salvation. This choice is not made in time but is rooted in God's eternal purposes. It is crucial to understand that Calvin's understanding of Unconditional Election does not imply a capricious or arbitrary selection. Rather, it highlights God's predetermined plan and purpose for all things, including the manifestation of His grace and mercy in the salvation of specific individuals.

…

Amen!

 

[makesends]

If anyone has a better site that accurately depicts T.U.L.I.P. better than this one, feel free to share. I do not think there are different variations of Calvin's T.U.L.I.P. but I may be wrong. As it is, there are different variations of Bible versions and anti-KJVOers say not all Bibles are saying the same thing and since there is no regard in keeping the meat of the scripture, I do see why it is possible that Calvin's T.U.L.I.P. may be misrepresented as well.

Five Point TULIP Calvinism Explained

From the link:

T - Stands for Total Depravity​

The belief in total depravity takes the view that sinfulness pervades all areas of life and human existence. Through the Fall of Man, humanity is stained by sin in every aspect: heart, emotions, will, mind, and body. This means people cannot independently choose God. They cannot save themselves. God must intervene to save people.

Calvinism insists that God must do all the work, from choosing those who will be saved to sanctifying them throughout their lives until they die and go to heaven. Calvinists cite numerous Scripture verses supporting humanity's fallen and sinful nature, such as Mark 7:21-23, Romans 6:20, and 1 Corinthians 2:14."

End of quote from link

I agree with this part but clarity in application is that although God must do all the work, in the life of the believer, they can hinder His work by sowing to the flesh in reaping corruption. just as heresy is a work of the flesh. which can also include by resorting to their own power in living the Christian life like keeping a commitment or a promise to follow Christ as if they can finish by the flesh and by their will, what was begun with the Spirit.

God will finish His work in those that build wood, stubble, and hay on that foundation that defiles the temple of God for why they will die per verses 16-17 in that day per verse 13, but their spirits are saved per verse 15 of 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 albeit left behind at the pre great tribulation rapture event for that day when they die. They will be resurrected after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House for not departing from iniquity per 2 Timothy 2:19-21 before the Bridegroom had come, thus being damned as vessels of wood & earth to serve the King of kings on earth.

It is not a works salvation because when those are left behind for not being ready, they are still saved for why they are still in His House as God will finish His work even in them that were not ready when the Bridegroom comes.

At best, I see your narrative as only 'a possible', not THE way it is. There are many questions as to who is what, after the "end", but I've not seen this in scripture. And not only is there a lack of positive proofs, but several objections must be removed. Primary among them, is God's promises concerning the Bride of Christ, The Body of Christ, The Dwelling Place of God, and so on. I see only the Elect saved, and none of the Elect consigned to less than these.

 

[makesends]

Unconditionally. But it is conditioned on God's good pleasure and will.

Huh? Are you saying God through foreknowledge God saw who would prefer their evil deeds, and therefore did not choose them? If so that just destroys the meaning of "unconditional election" and not to mention, distorts the true meaning of foreknowledge.

Agreed completely. Not to mention that it smacks of Arminianism and self-determinism and the rule of chance.

 

[ChristB4us]

Awesome! That was a nice drive Let me take us downtown...

Perhaps you are a One Point Calvinist now, holding to the T in TULIP. The U stands for Unconditional Election...

Grace is defined as the Unmerited Favor of God; right? Can you think of anything about Salvation that we Merit?

Nope.

 

[ReverendRV]

Nope.

Amen Brother...

When it comes to Merit, some Christians think of Election first. But if Election is Merited, these people are Saved by Merited Favor; right?

I'll post one of my Gospel Tracts about this. Don't worry, they are pretty good; and only one page long on a piece of paper...

Hold on...

 

[ChristB4us]

Here I only seeing you attempting to prove or continue your thesis, but you aren't answering my objection.

@Carbon & @ReverendRV

Was it an objection?

I had thought you were asking a question along with offering your thoughts upon it in a reasonable manner based on what you knew.

But what does it mean that they were not ready? By any reasonable definition I can come up with, it has to do with perfection; therefore, perfection by imputation/identification with Christ, or actual personal perfection. Actual personal perfection can never be good enough, thus, we are talking about the state of salvation and that, by election. If about salvation, then those who are not ready are NOT still saved.

And the post with scriptural links with the comments of truth from it proves that those left behind are still His and thus still saved.

How else can you apply those scriptures to mean? If I am wrongly applying those scriptures, then rightly divide the word of truth about what those scriptural references are talking about as proving it is not what I am saying they are talking about.

 

[ReverendRV]

Nope.

Unmerited Election ~ by ReverendRV * December 7

Ephesians 2:8 KJV; For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Compared to many Christians I know, I consider myself a ‘mini-Theologian’; and ABC, 123 kind of guy. In a way, this can be advantageous; I can say something which is as true as a deep Theologian but say it in a way that’s easier to understand. There’s a Doctrine called Unconditional Election, one of the 5-Points of Calvinism; it means that God chooses you to be Saved before you choose him as your God. I said to a friend that every Evangelical believes in Unconditional Election and I could prove it. Our verse says we are Saved by Grace, which means ‘Unmerited Favor’; there is no condition we can ever meet to Merit his Grace. God chooses people before they’ve done anything Good to deserve it or before they have done anything bad not to deserve it, that his purpose in Election will stand. I suggested to my friend that we change the name of Unconditional Election to Unmerited Election, and he said this would mean we are Saved by Grace. I said, “Now you’re getting it!” How can we be Saved any other way but by Grace?

Let me explain the problem. ~ Have you ever used the name of God as a cuss word? This takes his Name in Vain and is Blasphemy; what if someone went around running your name through the mud? Have you kept the Sabbath Day Holy? What if you invited someone to your Wedding but they decided to work in the yard instead; how would you feel? What if the person decided to choose your Fiancee for you before they would come? Shouldn’t YOUR purpose in your Engagement stand? These are just three of the Ten Commandments, not even counting Lying and Stealing; if God judged you by his standard would you be innocent or guilty? Would you go to Heaven or to Hell? Shouldn’t he choose anyone else but you to live happily ever after with him? Does this bother you? Then you should check to see if you’ve been invited…

This is what God’s invitation looks like. ~ For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life! Jesus Christ is the Son of God and he was the Sinless sacrifice which appeases the Wrath of God against Sinners. He was hung on a Cross and shed his blood for the remission of Sin that he never committed; the Just dying for the Unjust. He arose from the grave and became the Author of Life for everyone who would dare to believe. We’re Saved by God’s Grace through Faith in the Resurrected Savior Jesus Christ, apart from Works; that’s the only way it could be true that it’s not of ourselves. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as Lord and start reading your Bible. ~ Unconditional Election doesn’t mean you can’t be Saved but teaches that God chooses us first, then we choose him. Since God is allowed to choose his people like we are allowed to choose our own Spouse, God can choose you even if you think you’re unlovable. God’s Love is special…

John 15:19 NASB; "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.

 

[ChristB4us]

I'm not sure how you can say they can reap corruption if you agree with TULIP.

Not every one will heed His words in following Him to bear fruit.

Why else are we warned not to mock God by sowing to the flesh and thus reaping corruption?

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Even Peter warned believers of this.

2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

The Christian life is a life of mortifying the flesh and sanctification. Living by and in our own power is the desire of the flesh which must be mortified, and as the Spirit does His work of sanctifying, we continue to mortify.

Not every believer saved will follow Him as His disciple for why in the parable of the Sower, the 3 that did receive the seed had different growth results.

Personally, I'm an Amil, I believe the rapture takes place at the second coming. I just though I would share that so you may see the different understandings of this.

Okay. When do you see the BEMA Judgment Seat taking place? I see it at the re great tribulation rapture event. You?

 

[ChristB4us]

Unconditionally. But it is conditioned on God's good pleasure and will.

Huh? Are you saying God through foreknowledge God saw who would prefer their evil deeds, and therefore did not choose them? If so that just destroys the meaning of "unconditional election" and not to mention, distorts the true meaning of foreknowledge.

I do not see how it can destroy the meaning of unconditional election when God chooses him. It is not like we chose Him.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Having foreknowledge is based on John 3:18-21.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

I can see God's purpose by foreknowledge as our lives are written in the book.

Psalm 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,

Psalm 139:15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. 17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

I see no problem here at all.

 

[Carbon]

Not to mention that it smacks of Arminianism and self-determinism and the rule of chance.

Indeed it does.

 

[Carbon]

@Carbon & @ReverendRV

Was it an objection?

I had thought you were asking a question along with offering your thoughts upon it in a reasonable manner based on what you knew.

And the post with scriptural links with the comments of truth from it proves that those left behind are still His and thus still saved.

How else can you apply those scriptures to mean? If I am wrongly applying those scriptures, then rightly divide the word of truth about what those scriptural references are talking about as proving it is not what I am saying they are talking about.

I'm a little distracted at the moment, sorry.
But would you mind pointing out exactly what verses you are talking about proving a rapture of the church?

Thanks.