Looking At T.U.L.I.P. By Calvin

[makesends]

Adrian Rogers said God has a vote, Satan has a vote, and you have the deciding vote.

A human construction. And a product of a self-deterministic mindset.

Human constructions are apparently unavoidable, as explanations for what one thinks the Bible is saying. They may be 'true' but they are not the 'truth', as is the Bible itself. But then, see? I just did the same thing. But at least I hope that what I said was not from a self-deterministic mindset.

 

[makesends]

Well, let me tell you that is not at all what he intended.

Don't know him. Just looked at his church's site and they have the usual generic orthodox statements concerning salvation and the work of Christ, and the function of the Spirit of God. Vague and pretty much fits whatever without saying a lot. Sounds like with what he said there, he has shown the slant of their version of orthodoxy, or at least, his.

 

[ChristB4us]

Would you give me a quick definition of Irresistible grace by you? I'm not so sure you understand the doctrine.

I am not the teacher of that doctrine.

My opposition to this statement "The Holy Spirit supplies grace to them until they repent and are born again." is not found in scripture when it is the Father that draws them unto the Son John 6:44 to reveal His Son to them so they can believe in Him to be saved Matthew 11:25-27. It is the Father that literally gives sinners to the Son for the Son to save them John 6:37-40

So your a Calvinist but believes man must repent and be born again before God can do His work of grace in regeneration?

I am not identified as a Calvinist but a disciple of Jesus Christ by His grace & by His help, and I did not say that when I believe the only call to repent is about repenting from unbelief by believing in Jesus Christ to be saved. Then with Jesus Christ in us, we can run that race, looking to the author & finisher of our faith in helping us to lay aside every weight & sin daily in walking in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son.

What, are you claiming the law is not a good evangelistic tool in the hand of the Holy Spirit?

I am saying that the Father is the One that gives us to the Son whereas scripture testifies that the only sin the Holy spirit will convict of are those who never believed in Jesus Christ per John 16:7-9; .

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

What does this have to do with irresistible grace?

That is how the Holy Spirit will convict the world of sin for not believing in Him as He is not dwelling in them that they be condemned at the Great White Throne Judgment.

 

[ChristB4us]

If someone is a true child of God they will not be lost.

The parable of the soils will not help you here.

Those "lost" are still a true child of God even when left behind for not departing from iniquity before the Bridegroom comes.

Matthew 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. 11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

That foundation is still laid by Jesus Christ for why all the works on that foundation that denies Him & defiles the Temple of God will be burned off but He will finish His work even in those left behind as they will die, but their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven.

 

[armylngst]

From the link in the OP:

U - Stands for Unconditional Election​

This Calvinist view says God chooses who will be saved. Because people are dead in their sins, they are unable to initiate a response to God. In eternity past God elected certain people to be saved. The saved people are called the Elect. God picks them based not on their personal character or merit, but out of his kindness and sovereign will. It also means that election for salvation is not based on God's foreknowledge of who would come to faith in the future.

Ephesians 1 says that God did it "out of the good pleasure of His will." I can't think of a more straight forward way of saying "He felt like it". No merit, no conditions. He, given His position as Creator of the universe, took it upon Himself to choose people He felt like spending eternity with, and set no conditions on it.

Since some are chosen for salvation, others are not. Those not chosen are the damned, destined for an eternity in hell." End of Quote

It isn't that simple. Consider that EVERYONE is headed on the way to hell. It is a default condition. The idea of unconditional election is that God chose to change this default condition for some people. Everyone else is STILL, as they already were, going to hell. There is no change for them. Now, if you want to look at the eternal aspect of Ephesians, then yes, those chosen are the wheat planted by the Master in the parable of the wheat and the tares, while everyone else is the tares planted by the evil one. However, you have to consider that the Master did not just say, tear out those tares right now and throw it into the fire. He said to let all mature, that no wheat accidentally gets gathered up with the tares and thrown into the fire.

This is where I disagree.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Why does it say they are condemned ALREADY? Why doesn't it say they became condemned when they decided not to believe? It speaks to those who have always been reprobate. They are already condemned, so they do not need to be condemned again.

That sure reads as God picks those whom He will draw unto the Son ( John 6:44 ) to reveal His son to them ( Matthew 11:25-27 ) by having foreknowledge of who would prefer their evil deeds for God to not choose them over choosing those who would want to come to the light to be reproved of their evil deeds.

I guess that is one way of looking at it. But have you considered that the reason they turn out as they do, is because God chose them before the foundation of the world? Your reading is contrary to Jesus answer to the disciples "Then who can be saved?", as well as prophecy that says none are righteous, and none seek after God. Jesus answer says that the only reason there are people who seek after God, is because of God. God acts, and people seek Him. God does not act, on the other hand, NONE seek after Him. They are too busy going their own way. This contradicts the notion that God chose based on foreknowledge, for if none seek after God, and Jesus says it is impossible for man, then, if God never acted, He would not find any who choose to seek after Him, rendering the idea of foreknowledge a moot point.

I agree that our believing in Jesus Christ is the work of the Father & the Son ( Matthew 11:25-27 ) as it is the Father that draws them unto the Son.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

The whole point of this unconditional election is that small piece in Ephesians 1. He did it "of the good pleasure of His will." He did not place any conditions or merit in place for His choice. I'm sure that if God showed you all who would be saved, you would find a lot of questionable choices. Paul for instance. Destroyer of God's people. God didn't care. He told Ananias that He chose Paul, and told Paul that He chose him to go to the Gentiles. One of the biggest attackers of God's people, and God chose him.

 

[ChristB4us]

Correct. The Rocky and Weedy Soils are Reprobates; whether you are an Arminian, a Calvinist; or a Provisionist...

@Carbon & @makesends & @preacher4truth & @David1701

Reprobates as in what? Disqualified? Castaways?

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Textus Receptus Greek Text King James Bible With Strongs Dictionary From this link: at 1 Corinthians 9:27 for the Greek word "adokimos" which castaway was derived from in English has been defined as "from a - a 1 (as a negative particle) and dokimoV - dokimos 1384; unapproved, i.e. rejected; by implication, worthless (literally or morally):--castaway, rejected, reprobate."
NASB has it as disqualified.
1 Corinthians 9:27 but I strictly discipline (H)my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified. NASB

You all want to talk about what Paul is saying here & why he would even say it that it could happen to him?

Not saying he is talking about loss of salvation, but loss of being partakers of the firstfruit of the resurrection of being that vessel unto honor in His House which is still by His grace 7 by His help when we look to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily.

 

[ReverendRV]

@Carbon & @makesends & @preacher4truth & @David1701

Reprobates as in what? Disqualified? Castaways?

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Textus Receptus Greek Text King James Bible With Strongs Dictionary From this link: at 1 Corinthians 9:27 for the Greek word "adokimos" which castaway was derived from in English has been defined as "from a - a 1 (as a negative particle) and dokimoV - dokimos 1384; unapproved, i.e. rejected; by implication, worthless (literally or morally):--castaway, rejected, reprobate."
NASB has it as disqualified.
1 Corinthians 9:27 but I strictly discipline (H)my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified. NASB

You all want to talk about what Paul is saying here & why he would even say it that it could happen to him?

Not saying he is talking about loss of salvation, but loss of being partakers of the firstfruit of the resurrection of being that vessel unto honor in His House which is still by His grace 7 by His help when we look to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily.

Any person that doesn't Persevere in the Faith, is a Reprobate...

 

[armylngst]

Those "lost" are still a true child of God even when left behind for not departing from iniquity before the Bridegroom comes.

John would disagree with you. "If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth." John was direct and to the point in I John.

"Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God [a]is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked."

"28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that [h]when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him."
I would read that as saying that if they do not practice righteousness, they are not born of Him. Ephesians 1 says that God chose us beforehand to the adoption of children, THROUGH CHRIST. So if they do not depart iniquity, then they are not practicing righteousness, which means that they are not born of Christ. If they are not born of Him, then they were not ordained to the adoption of children, which means that they have no inheritance in Christ. (Also found in Ephesians.) There are other things they do not have as well.

Matthew 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. 11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? 13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

That foundation is still laid by Jesus Christ for why all the works on that foundation that denies Him & defiles the Temple of God will be burned off but He will finish His work even in those left behind as they will die, but their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven.

The day of Christ Jesus is the day that people are left behind or not left behind. The good work is completed in that day. There is nothing that comes after. Only true believers who follow Christ are His children. Consider what Hebrews says
"4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 [c]if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.".

 

[ChristB4us]

What is the biblical definition of foreknowledge in Romans 8:29? It's very important you have this correct.

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/foreknowledge.106/

Seeing how there are different views on it, then we should go to how they are applying Romans 8:29 to mean.

I see it as everything has been pre ordained as written in a book. Was it done by foreknowledge or because it is written in the book to happen or both? Is it written that the believer will be warned in dreams to pray for His intervention? I believe so.

We prophesy in part & know in part but one day we will see Him face to face and everything will be known.

 

[ChristB4us]

Any person that doesn't Persevere in the Faith, is a Reprobate...

But... is that person unsaved or is that person just disqualified from being received by the Bridegroom for the Marriage Supper in Heaven?

 

[armylngst]

I'm not sure how you can say they can reap corruption if you agree with TULIP.

The Christian life is a life of mortifying the flesh and sanctification. Living by and in our own power is the desire of the flesh which must be mortified, and as the Spirit does His work of sanctifying, we continue to mortify.

Personally, I'm an Amil, I believe the rapture takes place at the second coming. I just though I would share that so you may see the different understandings of this.

If you are amil, then you believe Jesus already returned at 70AD when Jerusalem was destroyed. So, the rapture occurred then?

 

[ChristB4us]

Now now, I heard Greg Laurie preaching this morning and he said God already chose us but we have to choose Him too.

I believe because He has chosen me is how and why I could choose Him.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Same goes for loving Him. I could not love Him unless He loved me first.

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

 

[armylngst]

I believe because He has chosen me is how and why I could choose Him.

John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Same goes for loving Him. I could not love Him unless He loved me first.

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

I think the argument you will face is when they say that Jesus only intended these words for HIs 12 disciples, not for all Christians throughout the ages.

 

[Carbon]

I am not identified as a Calvinist but a disciple of Jesus Christ

Okay, sorry.
This explains a lot. Thanks

 

[ReverendRV]

But... is that person unsaved or is that person just disqualified from being received by the Bridegroom for the Marriage Supper in Heaven?

All people who are Unsaved, are Reprobate; all of us agree. Even the Trodden Soil is Unsaved, so it also is Reprobate...

 

[ChristB4us]

John would disagree with you. "If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth." John was direct and to the point in I John.

John would not disagree with this: Those "lost" are still a true child of God even when left behind for not departing from iniquity before the Bridegroom comes.

John was addressing an erroneous belief among Christians that sin was no longer sin to them when they do it for why he referred to how Jesus walked in the light and there was no darkness at all as we are to do with His help to have fellowship with the Father & the Son.

"Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God [a]is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked."

"28 And now, little children, abide in Him, that [h]when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming. 29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him."
I would read that as saying that if they do not practice righteousness, they are not born of Him.

Then heed all of John's words. He was not talking about a believer can never sin, but that they should not live in unrepentant sinful lifestyle.

1 John 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

If any believer sin, "fall of the wagon", that would be consider as practicing unrighteousness but that does not mean he is not born of Him. John was emphasizing & exhorting believers to practice righteousness as a witness of abiding in Him as born of Him. The point is to call believers to repentance by going before that throne of grace for forgiveness and help not to do that again.

John is talking about discipleship; not salvation. Discipleship as in running that race is about abiding in Him daily by His grace & by His help.

John wanted to expose those that were walking in darkness as not abiding in Him as His disciples to warn others away from following them.

They will need His help daily to run that race as Paul had written below.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Ephesians 1 says that God chose us beforehand to the adoption of children, THROUGH CHRIST. So if they do not depart iniquity, then they are not practicing righteousness, which means that they are not born of Christ. If they are not born of Him, then they were not ordained to the adoption of children, which means that they have no inheritance in Christ. (Also found in Ephesians.) There are other things they do not have as well.

it is true that they will not inherit the eternal glory that comes with our salvation in Christ Jesus which is to be that vessel unto honor in His House, but if they depart from iniquity with His help before the Bridegroom comes, they will be received by the Bridegroom as vessels unto honor. Those that do not depart from iniquity will be of the other vessels, the vessels unto dishonor, the vessels of wood & earth, BUT still in His House as they will be resurrected after the great tribulation to serve the King of kings on earth.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

The day of Christ Jesus is the day that people are left behind or not left behind. The good work is completed in that day. There is nothing that comes after. Only true believers who follow Christ are His children. Consider what Hebrews says
"4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 [c]if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.".

That errant application has been circling a lot in Christianity but they do so out of context.

Hebrews 6:1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit.

Paul begins about after going through everything at conversion, they will not need to do that again for why they are to go on to perfection and explains why if you see the word "For" at the beginning of verse 4 as meaning "Because.." you might see the message intended with His help.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: 8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Now think of verse 7 like what the earth did with the rain as the same thing as what a believer built on that foundation. If the believer built wood, stubble, and hay, it will get burned up in that day of verse 13 but the foundation remains and thus salvation remains verse 15, but at the cost of incurring physical death per verses 16-17 which will happen to those that get left behind for being in unrepentant iniquity.

1 Corinthians 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

See the parallel? That is why it is impossible because they are still saved for why the call is to move on to perfection by repentance.

 

[ChristB4us]

All people who are Unsaved, are Reprobate; all of us agree. Even the Trodden Soil is Unsaved, so it also is Reprobate...

@armylngst

Reprobate is disqualified and thus to be castaways. They had to be saved as part of the vine to be cut off to be castaways.

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit..... 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
Luke 12:40-42 addresses saved believers with Jesus as Lord over them.
Luke 12:46-49 gives the consequence for not being ready as found abiding in Him as His disciples' they get cut off, and left behind with unbelievers in earth for when that fire comes on the earth. Plus, they will get stripes for the knowledge they had for not being ready and lesser stripes for the lack of knowledge they had for not being ready, but they are getting stripes because they are still His servants.

Just like the Father will scourge every child receives because they are sons, disobedient as not resisting sin, but still son. Why? so they can be partakers of His holiness.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. 5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

This is what a believer will get for not resisting sin by not looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help them lay aside every weight & sin daily unless they turn to Him for help to depart from iniquity before He comes as the Bridegroom.

 

[ChristB4us]

I think the argument you will face is when they say that Jesus only intended these words for HIs 12 disciples, not for all Christians throughout the ages.

I shall refer them to this reference;

John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him. 31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

 

[ReverendRV]

@armylngst

Reprobate is disqualified and thus to be castaways. They had to be saved as part of the vine to be cut off to be castaways.

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit..... 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. 41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? 42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
Luke 12:40-42 addresses saved believers with Jesus as Lord over them.
Luke 12:46-49 gives the consequence for not being ready as found abiding in Him as His disciples' they get cut off, and left behind with unbelievers in earth for when that fire comes on the earth. Plus, they will get stripes for the knowledge they had for not being ready and lesser stripes for the lack of knowledge they had for not being ready, but they are getting stripes because they are still His servants.

Just like the Father will scourge every child receives because they are sons, disobedient as not resisting sin, but still son. Why? so they can be partakers of His holiness.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. 5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

This is what a believer will get for not resisting sin by not looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help them lay aside every weight & sin daily unless they turn to Him for help to depart from iniquity before He comes as the Bridegroom.

No, they are Reprobate before they're born...

 

[Carbon]

No, they are Reprobate before they're born...

Ooooh, thats a tough saying.