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Looking At T.U.L.I.P. By Calvin

As for the question you are asking, God knows everything, right? Omniscience.

Of course… but how?

It is impossible to know how God sees everything, all we know is that God chose a group of people we know as the elect, before the foundation of the world,

I’m trying to help you come to a more consistent understanding.

God is not Omniscient because he can “see things he had nothing to do with.

Consider this as a reforming of your understanding of Unconditional Election into a more consistent version:
 
Hey bud, you have to remember Revelation is full of symbolism. By Satan being bound to no longer deceive the nations does not mean he is powerless to do anything; after all, he is God's devil and just a pawn. But it is teaching salvation goes to every tribe tongue and nation. No longer just the Jews and there is nothing the devil can do about that. Hopefully, that makes a little more sense.
What I remember is that Revelation is a book of prophecy written in the apocalyptic style. I also remember, lessons learned on Messianic prophecy, that prophecy is always literally fulfilled. Do you remember why the Jews missed the first coming of Jesus? They allegorized all the Messianic prophecies so Jesus did not fit. What does amillennialism and post-millennialism do to eschatology/end times prophecies? It allegorizes it all. Where did we fail to learn the lessons learned after the first big failure of allegorizing prophecy? They missed the prophecy of Israel becoming a nation again that is found in Isaiah. In 1949, everyone was still saying it would never happen, and then it did. The prophecy was literally fulfilled. Israel is a beautiful paradise in large parts of the country. Prophecy says that would happen when the Jews returned. However, if you read Mark Twain when he visited Israel back in the 1940s I believe, he was clear when he said it was a vast empty wasteland. Prophecy literally fulfilled again. Then there is the miraculous victory when the Arab world tried to destroy Israel. I believe it was at this time that they had the miracle with the Menorrah that would not go out, even though they had no oil for it. Prophecy being fulfilled that many are missing because they allegorized it all away.

So lets look at the passage in Revelation about the binding of Satan.
"Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while."

So, he is bound, cast into the bottomless pit, shut up, and sealed so that he should deceive the nations no more. Just what does it mean that he should deceive the nations no more. Well, as prophecy is very well explained, Revelation gives the answer later in the same chapter.

"7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them."

So, if one reads this as straightforward as Messianic prophecy (I really don't think God has changed, but you are free to), we see that this is deceiving the nations into attacking God, or in this case, God's people. And it is literal attacking, like the Germans in WWII, and the Yom Kippur war where the Arabs tried to wipe out Israel. Do note how literally that covers the prophecy above. As such, allegorizing it is wrong. Especially if you add what Paul had to say.

"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of [b]sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the [d]mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only [e]He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

This is prophecy. This is not the symbolism of Revelation, however lines can be drawn to Revelation, and it has been done. The allegorizing of prophecy is removing all meaning, just like when the Jewish religious leaders allegorized Messianic prophecy. They allegorized it to what they wanted it to mean. The Messiah would come to the aid of Israel, and would destroy the Romans. (I'm not sure if they updated their interpretations when their enemies changed, or not.) So you have post-millennialism, which believes that the church will overcome the world and then Jesus will return.
Yes, but he is unable to stop the spread of the gospel to all nations.
Of course he is. It isn't because he is bound. He's never been able to stop the spreading of the truth of God. Not in the Old Testament, and not in the New Testament. Even before he was supposedly bound at 70AD. He couldn't stop the Pentecost, he couldn't stop Peter with the Gentiles, he couldn't stop the disciples of John the Baptist joining the church, and he couldn't stop the Samaritans from joining the church. He couldn't cause Philip to trip and fall so that he missed meeting up with the eunuch from Ethiopia. As you can see, Satan could not stop it unbound, how would anything change with him bound? And that's forgetting that Revelation already defined what this deceiving of the nations was.
I don't understand that question and how it would interfere with Amillennialism.
If scripture is not fulfilled, then everything falls apart. Amillennialism states that not all men will die, because Elijah and Enoch have not died, and they won't die. Even Jesus died, since all men are appointed once to die. Even Jesus did not escape scripture. He was judged by the Father, and rose again, his sacrifice found satisfactory. Yet Elijah and Enoch never died. Amillennialism says they will never die. That is unfulfilled scripture, which means that scripture is faulty. As such, can we trust any scripture at all? Premillennialism has them come to earth to testify of God, and speak whatever God has for them to say in judgment, and then they die, three days later they get up and go back to heaven. Scripture fulfilled.
 
You would have to read about amillennialism. I am a premillennialist, though I don't really ascribe to dispensationalism. However, there is a difference between historic premillennialism (chilianism) and dispensational premillennialism, which is the part that Israel plays. I believe that it is the fulfillment of God's promises to Israel. (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, King David, etc.) They were God's chosen people, and Paul says that God did not fully reject them, but gave them a partial blindness that would continue until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled.

I believe that artificial intelligence is going to play a huge role in deceiving the whole world. The creation of God's rebellious creation is going to take on God. However, it is but a tool. We have the beast... and his image. HIs image, I am beginning to believe more and more, is going to be some sort of artificial intelligence. Pair that with the huge advances being made in robotics, and you have something man has created in his own image. Artificial. Man made. So you have the Beast, his image (son....), and then you will have his mark. Sounds like the makings of an anti-trinity, doesn't it?
I reckon time will tell how the future prophecies will unfold.

I believe the pre great tribulation rapture event is why immediately after that, the 3 angels in Revelation 14:1-13 sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all remaining on the earth for that is when God will judge His House first at the Bema Judgment seat which is at that rapture event.

The point is to go before that throne of grace now and ask Jesus for help to depart from any iniquity that you may not be aware of as well as the ones you are aware of Luke 12:40-49 and ask for help not to be ensnared by being overcharged by the cares of this life that would make you not want to leave Luke 21:33-36 & Luke 14:15-35
 
And that makes no sense to me. It is obvious that Satan is still deceiving the nations today, and it is getting worse. His deceiving of Germany is the most recent blatant example of Satan deceiving a nation to attack the chosen people of God, Israel. I mean, can it be more clear. His fingerprints are visible in the focus of attacks against God's chosen people. It is clear that Satan is still deceiving nations. There is a reason why post millennialism died at WW I and WW II. Those wars ran contradictory to their claims of what the future would be. (A post millennialist is a optimistic amillennialist.)
It makes no sense because of a restrictive view of what deceived the nations might mean. Rev does not say that satan is not deceiving. He is deceiving people. There is a war in play that has its source in the spiritual realm and plays out on earth through men. IMO it is a war for control of earth. We see that in the way that the serpent deceived Eve; in the way that he has always tried to destroy the Seed bearer of the One who would crush his head. God is fighting the devil. The devil is fighting God. It is not only man who is being redeemed but the entire polluted creation is being redeemed through the redemption of man.

So there is a difference, a reason, why it is said he is bound from deceiving the nations rather than simply bound from deceiving.

And satan is and always has been attacking God's people, Jew and Gentile alike through persecution. In different places and in differing degrees. When he is loosed from the restrictions now placed on him, it will be every nation that persecutes Christians and in every place.
 
Question. Scripture is clear that all men die, and then they are judged. However, there are two men who never died. Enoch and Elijah. How does God take care of this problem if amillennialism is true?
What does amillennialism have to do with it? It is already taken care of in whatever way God took care of it. Do you think they are waiting somewhere in heaven waiting to be judged? Purgatory maybe?
 
That so called esteemed educated standard is not being done Biblically. You should consider disregarding that teaching of that standard.

The lost books of the Bible were not regarded as scripture because they were running against scripture.

Scripture cannot go against scripture as there can be no lie of the truth.

1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. 28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Let us not take the route of the Catholic Church to look outside the Bible to our "tainted" educational system for understanding and applying the Bible.
My point is that the fact something is not defeated by a passage of Scripture does not mean that that passage of Scripture supports it. Simple as that.

But what are you referring to as the "esteemed educated standard"? I'm talking about common sense, which really, is just about all good hermeneutics is.
 
It makes no sense because of a restrictive view of what deceived the nations might mean. Rev does not say that satan is not deceiving. He is deceiving people. There is a war in play that has its source in the spiritual realm and plays out on earth through men. IMO it is a war for control of earth. We see that in the way that the serpent deceived Eve; in the way that he has always tried to destroy the Seed bearer of the One who would crush his head. God is fighting the devil. The devil is fighting God. It is not only man who is being redeemed but the entire polluted creation is being redeemed through the redemption of man.

So there is a difference, a reason, why it is said he is bound from deceiving the nations rather than simply bound from deceiving.

And satan is and always has been attacking God's people, Jew and Gentile alike through persecution. In different places and in differing degrees. When he is loosed from the restrictions now placed on him, it will be every nation that persecutes Christians and in every place.
That is why I say he is not bound. He is still free. He is still doing what Revelation says he can't do when he is bound, which is deceiving nations into making war against God's people. (Literal war, like World War II, and the Yom Kippur War.) Don't allegorize prophecy, which so many seem to want to do.
 
What does amillennialism have to do with it? It is already taken care of in whatever way God took care of it. Do you think they are waiting somewhere in heaven waiting to be judged? Purgatory maybe?
They never died. They aren't even awaiting judgment because the Bible is clear that men are appointed once to die, and then the judgment. Since they never died, we can't know what they are doing right now. Scripture doesn't have any examples outside of these two people, of those who have not died. Even Jesus died.
 
So, you believe Satan was bound before Job? Where do you get the idea that being bound and thrown into a pit does not mean complete restraint? That is laughable to me. The image Revelation gives is that the world is a beautiful place while he is bound. The population of the world wiped out in the tribulation, and by Christ's return, recovers. Then Satan is released for the purpose of deceiving the nations of Gog and Magog, and they all get wiped out when they attack Jerusalem to destroy Christ and His kingdom.

Here is something you don't seem to understand with what you wrote above. God is sovereign. (I thought you believed that?) If Satan could do whatever He wanted to in God's creation, and to God's creation, that would make Satan greater than God. Job shows us that not only is Satan not greater than God, he is not free to do however he pleases. He still falls under God's sovereignty. He too is a created being.

Can you explain why nothing has changed in the world since this supposed binding? Satan is still out seeking those he might devour. He is still deceiving whole nations. He is still directing the course of the whole world. Yet even before Jerusalem was destroyed and Satan was bound, it is said that Satan was restrained. (Not bound, but restrained). If Satan has to be unbound to deceive the world, then how is he deceiving the world now if he is bound?
Again my friend, being bound does not mean he is completely shut down, but God has limited what he can and cannot do. Like a dog on a leash, so to speak.
 
Again my friend, being bound does not mean he is completely shut down, but God has limited what he can and cannot do. Like a dog on a leash, so to speak.
You do understand that that is how Satan has ALWAYS been, right? What changed if Satan is just restrained from doing what he has always been restrained from doing? It makes no sense. Satan has NEVER been able to block the preaching of who God is. What changed? I mean, amillenialists say it is clear that Satan is being kept from being able to stop God from being preached around the world. Yet, Satan has never been able to block the preaching of God around the world. If you look at the passage in Revelation as written (which is how prophecy is supposed to be handled), you will see that towards the end of the chapter, it explains exactly what Satan was being blocked from doing. And it had nothing to do with God being preached around the world, and everything to do with the deceiving of the nations of the world into attacking/destroying the people of God. You can see Satan doing this throughout history.

Don't allegorize prophecy like the Jews did. They missed the coming of their Messiah, because they so allegorized messianic prophecies, that Jesus didn't fit any of those prophecies anymore. And they didn't even realize who Jesus was when they proved to Herod that they knew the prophecies when they told Herod where the king was to be born. They didn't even put two and two together. Why? They allegorized away the truth. God did not stutter in prophecy. He was direct, and He was literal. Yes, there is some symbolism in place, but the actual event that God prophesied occurred literally. The suffering servant. Jesus being led like a lamb to the slaughter, not opening His mouth. The probability of Jesus by chance fulfilling even one of the messianic prophecies borders on impossible. He fulfilled them all, and rather literally. (Out of egypt I will call my Son. By His stripes we are healed. and more) Consider that Zechariah knew nothing of Jesus, but he still prophesied that Israel will recognize Him whom they have pierced. Zechariah didn't even know who that would be. Jesus had not died yet. (Much less been born.) What was Jesus prophecy of the end times in regards to the disciples? That one of them would not die before they see the coming of the Kingdom. John is the only disciple who died a natural death. He wrote Revelation. Consider the prophecy God made to Simeon, where he told Simeon that he would not die until he has seen the hope of Israel. Who/what was that hope? Jesus. He recognized the fulfillment of the prophecy when he saw Jesus. It was literally fulfilled.

Don't allegorize prophecy.
 
We have gone off the rails from the OP's topic. Please, let us get back to that topic, and also, my apologies for doing my part to derail the thread. If you wish to take this up, please start a thread in the Eschatology thread. Anymore posts that do not address the subject of this thread will be deleted from henceforth. Thanks in advance for your cooperation.

PS This is not me coming at you as a staff member, but coming to you to tell you this is not the intended subject of the thread.
 
My point is that the fact something is not defeated by a passage of Scripture does not mean that that passage of Scripture supports it. Simple as that.

But what are you referring to as the "esteemed educated standard"? I'm talking about common sense, which really, is just about all good hermeneutics is.
When proving anything with the help of Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit in us, like John Calvins's T.U.L.I.P. , we are to make sure the scripture John is using is rightly dividing the word of truth that it is not opposing the truths plainly written as is in other scripture because scripture cannot go against scripture as in the truth in one scripture cannot go against the truth in other scripture or else it is a lie in one of the application of scripture.
 
[MOD: Not addressing TULIP, which is the topic of the OP, please feel free to discuss this in the Eschatology forum] :)
 
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When proving anything with the help of Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit in us, like John Calvins's T.U.L.I.P. , we are to make sure the scripture John is using is rightly dividing the word of truth that it is not opposing the truths plainly written as is in other scripture because scripture cannot go against scripture as in the truth in one scripture cannot go against the truth in other scripture or else it is a lie in one of the application of scripture.
Yes. And...?
 
Yes. And...?
Not everything John Calvin taught aligns with scripture, but only Jesus Christ can prove that to you.

Trust Jesus Christ to be your personal Good Shepherd today.
 
[MOD: Not addressing TULIP, which is the topic of the OP, please feel free to discuss this in the Eschatology forum] :)
Just a note: this post that was deleted was posted long before the warning was given and was a response to a response to me. I put a lot of thought and effort into. I don't mind it being moved into the eschatology forum ---It was indeed off topic---but now it is just lost unless I decide to do the work all over again. :) The thread went off the rail around 120 something which is about where I came into the thread. It sounded like eschatology to me.

Is there not a way to move a post into a different thread with the post it is responding to (which should have been deleted also and I don't know if it was or wasn't) so it makes sense?
 
Not everything John Calvin taught aligns with scripture, but only Jesus Christ can prove that to you.

Trust Jesus Christ to be your personal Good Shepherd today.
Are you saying he isn't already?
 
Are you saying he isn't already?
Sometimes believers are not looking to Him to do that when they are accepting everything "Christian" at face value and so they are not listening for His guidance to prove all things by Him & His words.
 
When first discussing Total Depravity, I distinguish it from Utter Depravity. Total Depravity says All the faculties of our Human Being are Fallen, to some percentage less than %100 Good. One person may be %99 good, another person is %75 good; etc. No one but God is %100 Good. This is all that Total Depravity means. Utter Depravity means we are as Bad as we can be; IE %100 Evil. Satan is Utterly Depraved; and perhaps we could say that when King Nebuchadnezzer became like a beast of the field; he too was Utterly Depraved...

Total Depravity involves more than just the acknowledgment that we're Depraved. It involves Total Inability to Discern the Spiritual things of God; things such as Special Revelation. For instance, A Leopard can't change it's spots, therefore those who are accustomed to doing Evil cannot do %100 Good...

These are the two sides of the Coin known as Total Depravity. Calvinists and Arminians agree to this. This Doctrine of Grace is probably the easiest point of Calvinism for any Christian to accept. After we agree about the presence of Depravity in our Being, and its influence in our life; the next question is, Why are we Totally Unable to change our Spots?
I like your definition of TD
 
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