Looking At T.U.L.I.P. By Calvin

[makesends]

It could be a stretch. But I see the exclusivity of the Way in it.

Yes, it is. But is He not The Way, and The LORD?

So I wanted to read commentary to see what John Gill said and here is his treatment of the text of Genesis 28:12 (I edited the long paragraph into segments for easier reading):

and, behold, a ladder set upon the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: denoting either the providence of God, and the various steps of it, bringing about his own glory and the good of his people; and which is steady, firm, and sure, and reaches to all things here on earth; and in an especial manner is concerned about the people of God, their protection and safety; and is directed and governed according to the will, counsels, and purposes of God in heaven; a view of which must be very encouraging to Jacob in his present circumstances.

Or else the incarnation and mediation of Christ, who in his human nature was to be in the fulness of time on earth, there to live a while, obey, suffer, and die, and so was the ladder set on earth; and his divine nature was the top of it, which reached heaven.

Here he was in that nature before his incarnation, and from hence he came; and indeed here he was in that when on earth; and as man, he ascended on high when he had done his work, and is now higher than the heavens.

He may be fitly represented hereby as the Mediator, who has reconciled things in heaven and things on earth, and has as it were joined and united heaven and earth together: and the various rungs in this ladder, so considered, are Christ's interposition as a surety front eternity; his incarnation in time; his being under the law, and his obedience to it; his sufferings, the shedding of his blood, and the death of the cross; his resurrection from the dead, ascension to heaven, session at the right hand of God, and intercession there.

Moreover this may point out to us Christ as the way to his Father, of access unto him, and acceptance with him, by which he communicates the blessings of his grace to men, and by which they ascend to God with their prayers and praises to him: as also as being the way to heaven and eternal happiness; the various steps to which are election in him, redemption by him, regeneration by his Spirit and grace, the several graces of his Spirit, faith, hope, and love, justification by his righteousness, pardon by his blood, adoption through him, and the resurrection of the dead:

and, behold, the angels of God ascending and descending on it: which may be expressive of the employment of angels in the affairs of Providence, who receive their commission from heaven, and execute it on earth, in which they are diligent, faithful, and constant; and of the ministry of them, both to Christ personal, and to his church and people, even to every particular believer; see Joh 1:51.

Thanks for the quote. Gill is a favorite read.

I must admit to a certain amount of, shall we say, impotence, (speaking for myself), concerning the ability of the divines to interpret passages so. I don't think they would claim —at least, I don't think John Gill would— that exegesis proves his use here, of the passage —he even says, "it may be" or words to that effect; but often, even many years ago, and not any less due to today's extravagances, does Christendom adopt such things. For example, the Philippian jailer who in fear for his life cries out, "What must I do to be saved?" I don't think that by exegesis it can be shown to be asking how one makes it to Heaven, though, granted it is a possibility. But the passage is almost universally agreed to be about that. And it may well be. I think Paul made good use of the situation and the question, too.

Many a preacher waxed (and waxes) eloquent about a passage read to the congregation, and then the Bible is set down. Or other passages are read, and brought to bear on the preacher's thesis, but the context is not read. The thesis is often excellent, and excellently proven, but not by the original passage.

 

[makesends]

Man since the fall of Adam has been depraved. Meaning...
He can not believe unless God supplies grace to overcome his sinful flesh that will be dominating over the soul.
Without grace man is totally helpless to resist his sin nature in relation to God's Spirit. Without God's enabling power of grace man's soul will always reject God.

Its the flesh's dominance over the soul prevents man's soul from believing.

But, to say man is totally depraved? Leaves God with nothing to save.

When God saves a soul he has (positionally) crucified that man's flesh in Christ.

Again, to say man is totally depraved? Leaves God with nothing to save.
Total depravity would have to mean that the flesh and soul are each hopelessly depraved.

Man will become totally depraved when he insists upon rejecting God during times that grace was being implemented to paralyze the effects of the flesh over the soul. Paralyzing the sin nature is by grace, thus making that soul momentarily truly free to either choose for, or against God, while God was drawing him by grace.

grace and peace ......................

That is not what 'Total Depravity' is referring to. What it means is that in every thought, intent and deed, the totally depraved is self-deterministic, at enmity with God. Witness the Jews, who thought they could break even by obeying the law, without heart-submission. Witness those nowadays, who think their momentarily broken heart's cry for redemption is real, apart from Christ, to gain Christ.

 

[makesends]

John 1:51 (KJV) And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

Well noted. Good paralleling passage. But it sounds here then, like you are claiming that Jacob is a 'type of Christ', and not the ladder! unless you think 'upon' is talking about using Christ to step on, to climb up and down. Are you sure that is the use of 'upon', meant here?

Again, note, I am not saying you are wrong, nor anyone else, in this matter. I'm saying, "Prove it to me".

 

[makesends]

This is why I enjoy MLJ, I want to know what the words mean, what the verse means, what the context means &c.

What is MLJ?

 

[GeneZ]

That is not what 'Total Depravity' is referring to. What it means is that in every thought, intent and deed, the totally depraved is self-deterministic, at enmity with God. Witness the Jews, who thought they could break even by obeying the law, without heart-submission. Witness those nowadays, who think their momentarily broken heart's cry for redemption is real, apart from Christ, to gain Christ.

You are covering other valid details. I was covering why we need grace for salvation.

 

[David1701]

Well noted. Good paralleling passage. But it sounds here then, like you are claiming that Jacob is a 'type of Christ', and not the ladder! unless you think 'upon' is talking about using Christ to step on, to climb up and down. Are you sure that is the use of 'upon', meant here?

Again, note, I am not saying you are wrong, nor anyone else, in this matter. I'm saying, "Prove it to me".

The ladder was that upon which the angels of God ascended and descended, in both verses; therefore, the ladder is a type of Christ (it's a metaphor).

The Lord Jesus Christ, being both God and man, is like a bridge (or ladder) between heaven and earth.

Ps. 85:11 (KJV) Truth shall spring out of the earth; and righteousness shall look down from heaven.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.

 

[makesends]

You are covering other valid details. I was covering why we need grace for salvation.

Then why did you say this?

"Again, to say man is totally depraved? Leaves God with nothing to save.
Total depravity would have to mean that the flesh and soul are each hopelessly depraved.

Man will become totally depraved when he insists upon rejecting God during times that grace was being implemented to paralyze the effects of the flesh over the soul. Paralyzing the sin nature is by grace, thus making that soul momentarily truly free to either choose for, or against God, while God was drawing him by grace."

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see how anyone can take that as anything but an attempt to demonstrate that the concept of Total Depravity is invalid.

 

[makesends]

Martyn Lloyd-Jones, "The Doctor."

Oh, ok. Yeah, he is great!

 

[GeneZ]

Then why did you say this?

"Again, to say man is totally depraved? Leaves God with nothing to save.
Total depravity would have to mean that the flesh and soul are each hopelessly depraved.

Man will become totally depraved when he insists upon rejecting God during times that grace was being implemented to paralyze the effects of the flesh over the soul. Paralyzing the sin nature is by grace, thus making that soul momentarily truly free to either choose for, or against God, while God was drawing him by grace."

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see how anyone can take that as anything but an attempt to demonstrate that the concept of Total Depravity is invalid.

If it stopped at the "depravity" of man? It would have sufficed.

Total depravity does not line up with Romans 7:18-19

For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh.
For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—
this I keep on doing..​

Paul made it clear that the problem with man's depravity resides in his flesh where the sin nature resides.

That the soul was always being dominated by the influence of the flesh's desires and contrariness to the Spirit of God.
And, what his soul knew was good to do? He could not do because his flesh was always causing him to do wrong.

The fact that his powerless soul knew what is the good? Reveals its helplessness. Not that his soul wanted to do wrong..

Therefore? Free up that soul to do as it desires? You would not find total depravity!!!

How does God free up that soul? Grace frees up that soul!

Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, ​

“My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” ​

Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s ​

power may rest on me." 2 Cor 12:8-9​

That is why God saved our soul, but threw our bodies of depravity onto the Cross to be crucifies with Christ!

Its not complicated once understood.

Only thing that makes it seem that way is what the stubborn thinking of ingrained indoctrination causes when Calvinists
harden themselves against Armenians. Armenians fail to see that man in his fallen state does not have any inherent goodness.
That without God's grace stepping in and shutting down the sovereignty of the flesh over the soul? There would be no goodness to be found.

“My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” ​

​

​

God's grace, when sound doctrine is present to be learned, will take away the inner stress man faces in this fallen world.
Grace and truth, when it finishes its work, will make us to become relaxed "normal" people in God's sight.

Now, if the soul itself were innately depraved? There would be nothing for God to save! For the soul would always reject God.
The soul that rejects God is not because its innately sinful. For its the flesh that is sinful that dominates the soul.
The soul that rejects God? Is EVIL! Sin comes from the flesh. The soul merely expresses the sin. Evil rejects sound doctrine
because the false doctrine pleases its flesh. The false doctrine was designed to please the flesh. When someone gets locked in
on false doctrine? Its because that soul enjoys the sensation of the flesh getting its way in that case. Of seeing oneself placed in a superior position. = pride.

Jesus died for all man's sins.
But, Jesus did not die for Evil.
To do so, he would have had to reject himself on the Cross!

Sound doctrine is the enemy of evil.
Evil would want to crucify sound doctrine....

There we have it folks.

grace and peace ................

 

[makesends]

If it stopped at the "depravity" of man? It would have sufficed.

Total depravity does not line up with Romans 7:18-19

For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh. ​

For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. ​

For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—​

this I keep on doing..​

Paul made it clear that the problem with man's depravity resides in his flesh where the sin nature resides.

That the soul was always being dominated by the influence of the flesh's desires and contrariness to the Spirit of God.
And, what his soul knew was good to do? He could not do because his flesh was always causing him to do wrong.

The fact that his powerless soul knew what is the good? Reveals its helplessness. Not that his soul wanted to do wrong..

Therefore? Free up that soul to do as it desires? You would not find total depravity!!!

How does God free up that soul? Grace frees up that soul!

Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, ​

“My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” ​

Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s ​

power may rest on me." 2 Cor 12:8-9​

That is why God saved our soul, but threw our bodies of depravity onto the Cross to be crucifies with Christ!

Its not complicated once understood.

Only thing that makes it seem that way is what the stubborn thinking of ingrained indoctrination causes when Calvinists
harden themselves against Armenians. Armenians fail to see that man in his fallen state does not have any inherent goodness.
That without God's grace stepping in and shutting down the sovereignty of the flesh over the soul? There would be no goodness to be found.

“My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” ​

​

​

God's grace, when sound doctrine is present to be learned, will take away the inner stress man faces in this fallen world.
Grace and truth, when it finishes its work, will make us to become relaxed "normal" people in God's sight.

Now, if the soul itself were innately depraved? There would be nothing for God to save! For the soul would always reject God.
The soul that rejects God is not because its innately sinful. For its the flesh that is sinful that dominates the soul.
The soul that rejects God? Is EVIL! Sin comes from the flesh. The soul merely expresses the sin. Evil rejects sound doctrine
because the false doctrine pleases its flesh. The false doctrine was designed to please the flesh. When someone gets locked in
on false doctrine? Its because that soul enjoys the sensation of the flesh getting its way in that case. Of seeing oneself placed in a superior position. = pride.

Jesus died for all man's sins.
But, Jesus did not die for Evil.
To do so, he would have had to reject himself on the Cross!

Sound doctrine is the enemy of evil.
Evil would want to crucify sound doctrine....

There we have it folks.

grace and peace ................

Then you were arguing against it, or rather trying to. But you misrepresented it, and do here too. You are beating a strawman. And doing a good job at it, too!

 

[GeneZ]

Then you were arguing against it, or rather trying to. But you misrepresented it, and do here too. You are beating a strawman. And doing a good job at it, too!

Should I let you off easy?

Or, ask you to show me how what you claimed is so?

I think you just do not understand what I am saying.

If you do?

Show me the strawman you speak of...