Free will. What is it?

[Eternally-Grateful]

And because I present it as Biblical, you can
ask for a Biblical demonstration of my view, or you can
BIblically demonstrate that my view is incorrect, or you can
Biblically demonstrate your view.

But disagreements or opinions do not matter, only Biblical demonstrations matter.

You may disagree that if A = B, and B = C, then A = C, but you get to (must) demonstrate that your disagreement is correct.

I agree

But again, as I have witnessed 1000 times

If we both stand firm and say we have the biblical view. Then nothing will get settled.

Thats why WE BOTH need to be open minded.

When someone pulls out the “biblical” card. From what I have witnessed, that (the ability to be open minded) tends to cease to exist..

A perfect example is “all Israel: in romans 11.

To some All israel is the elect. Jew and gentile

To others, All Israel is all who are alive at that time who are blood children of Jacob and one of his 12 sons who repent at a specific time in the future (when the fullness of the gentiles is complete)

And then some think it happened in 70 AD.

I am sure there are others. Seems to be many beliefs out there.

We can’t all be right.. and we can not all say we follow the Bible.

So we discuss our views. We agree to disagree if we cannot agree. And we move on.

 

[Eleanor]

I agree

But again, as I have witnessed 1000 times

If we both stand firm and say we have the biblical view. Then nothing will get settled.

We settle it by making Biblical demonstrations, which has not been done. . .not by just assertions.

 

[Arial]

but again, every church thinks their view is correct. So when a question arrises. and both parties say the bible is the determining factor. can there ever be an agreement or mode of love?

The Bible is it's own interpreter. It only means what it says. It is the word of God and so it is what God means that matters and is true, nothing else. It is what the writers mean under his inspiration. It is possible of course to discern what that is. In fact one can presume that it is not that difficult or it would be of little use. Some things are more difficult than others, to be sure, this far removed from it. But salvation and the message of the gospel is very simple.

The fact that the various conflicting beliefs are purported to all be from the Bible, is irrelevant. People make it difficult, people fail to do the necessary work and take the necessary precautions to keep all truth with its pages free of contradiction. People, by presumption, and preference, and desires distort it to suit themselves. Sometimes it is a direct influence of Satan who is always fighting to hinder God's work and deceive the people. Men just take up the banner, either maliciously in some cases, or from lack of grounding in doctrinal positions themselves. (Note Paul's deep concern and instruction to Timothy.)

But at the root of all of it is a sloppy, inconsistent doctrine of God. Doctrines are arrived at from scriptures isolated from their surrounding context, from all historical and cultural context, and from the context of the full counsel of God, and quite often try to affirm a right doctrine of God in acquiescence, but abandoning it when arriving at other doctrines. And never noticing, and in my experience, even caring, that they have done so. That was the appeal of Reformed theology to me. It started with a doctrine of God and never moved an iota away from everything else agreeing with that doctrine. WHo God is. And it learns from Scripture and his self revelation who he is. None of which is difficult or complicated if we walk by faith and don't try to peer behind the scenes into places he has not opened to us. We don't view God as the only self existent, uncaused, eternal creator and governor of all things in one place and then in another place say he gives the determination of who is saved, of who Christ successfully died for, up to the will and whim of fallen man, because it is only fair that he give freedom to their will. I mean, look what man did the first time God said, "Don't do this or else this will happen." And since then, according to Scripture, he is our enemy, and we are his enemy.

Can there ever be an agreement or mode of love? Those are two different things. Agreement, not likely in this age. The devil is at work in the hearts and minds of men. Of love? Absolutely. That type of love is not a feeling or emotion. It is doing no harm and helping even an enemy who is in trouble if you are able. (See the story of the Samaritan.)

 

[Arial]

Again, it never discusses the trinity either, but we all believe in the triune God. in fact many think if you do not believe in a triune God you can not be saved

You need to identify who "we all" are.

The Trinity is a non-negotiable doctrine of Christianity. It belongs to no other religion. Any religion that does not believe in the Trinity has no business calling itself Christian, though many do so. It is a deception. The Trinity is something that is revealed. That is shown in Jesus' discussion with Peter when Peter said "You are the Son of the LIving God!" Jesus told him flesh and blood did not reveal that to him but his Father in heaven did, and on that rock his church would be built. When Peter said what He did, he was astonished! Why? Because it hit him like a hammer. The man standing before him was God incarnate. It is not revealed to the world. It is revealed to his people.

The question was about there are only 2 possibilities. the biblical one and the philisophical one

the question was. who determined what is biblical?

in this chatroom who determined what is biblical or what is not? lets start here as an example

EG you are asking who when the question should be what? That is why it is important to pay attention to what people say to see where they are getting the information and assertions from. Are they presenting what they say in a way that is being supported by the scriptures or are they just making statements of assumption. Can we take what they say and prove and show where it is deviating from scripture? Is what they are saying consistent with everything else the Bible says on the same subject? Is it consistent with who God is as he reveals himself? Are we ourselves meeting the necessary parameters? That is all anyone has been asking for.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

We settle it by making Biblical demonstrations, which has not been done. . .not by just assertions.

So me using John 1, John 3, John 5 John 6, Romans 10. And many other passages is not using the Bible?

Now you really have me confused.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You need to identify who "we all" are.

You have accused me of doing things, in multiple posts now

Please prove your accusations..

We can not go forward until you prove your accusations.

 

[Eleanor]

So me using John 1, John 3, John 5 John 6, Romans 10. And many other passages is not using the Bible?

Now you really have me confused.

Did you present any of those Scriptures to me to support your assertions?

 

[Arial]

You have accused me of doing things, in multiple posts now

Please prove your accusations..

We can not go forward until you prove your accusations.

First you need to explain to me how my words (I will quote them below) are accusing you of something and what they are accusing you of?

You need to identify who "we all" are.

 

[Arial]

So me using John 1, John 3, John 5 John 6, Romans 10. And many other passages is not using the Bible?

Now you really have me confused.

It is biblical demonstration that is being asked for. We are all familar with and believe the scriptures given. We do not interpret them the same as you evidently.

 

[Arial]

How many times are you going to accuse me of this, and how many times am I going to ask you to defend your accusation against me, Before you either admit you are making this up. Or your seeing something that is not really there. or whatever reason you keep accusing me of doing this?

I say what I see. Saying I see you shift from one position to another is not an accusation, it is what I see. Who are you to tell me I don't or go even farther and tell me what is in my mind. ANd even farther and make what it is a real accusation and saying I simply make it up. Though that sentence makes no sense whatsoever, and then you wonder why I can't figure out what you are saying. This is the sentence that makes no sense:"Before you either admit you are making this up." Does that make sense? Is it even a complete, grammatical sentence? Then it is not an accusation but a fact.

I sincerely question your sincerity in posting on this forum (not a chat room.)

Ariel my friend

You make accusations. Yet every time I answer them, You put it back on me as if I am the problem

You are trying to see me as something, Your trying to see me from a point of view that fits whatever ISM you have been I assume trained to see. I think I made this case quite well in my last post.


I have no redefined words.. Unless my definition of a word does not fit your definition. Then what has happened is we have a disagreement, Not me redefining words.

I also have not defined my own language and ism. I do not deal in isms. Why would I? The only reason you even say anythign like this is again, your trying to put me in some group. and not listening to a thing I say.

Yes, You have developed your own image, and your own ism or whatever you want to call it. So when I talk to you about what you believe, I will look to you at what you say, Bot what I have been told you believe, or try to put you under some ism. I try as best I can to look at you as an individual with your own belief system. so I can have a discussion with you

I want to have a discussion between Eternally-Grateful and Arial, not between the reformed church and my non denominational church.

I am not sure why this seems to be a bad thing for some people

How many times are you going to accuse me of this, and how many times am I going to ask you to defend your accusation against me, Before you either admit you are making this up. Or your seeing something that is not really there. or whatever reason you keep accusing me of doing this?


I understand you are a mod of this chat room. I also understand you have power. and I feel at a disadvantage because you keep making these accusations and I feel I can not say anything about them

If you or anyone else say I believe something I do not believe, After I have told you or them many times, and even given examples to show I do not believe that. That is a false accusation.

If you or someone else says I am doing something, I have not done. or make an accusation against me. I will ask you to prove those accusations (as you would me) if you do not prove those things, I will accuse you of making a false accusation against me.

Its not hard to listen to a person and understand what they are saying or doing.. if you just listen.

once again, You have now accused me twice this very day. PROVE YOUR ACCUSATIONS.

or STOP ACCUSING ME of doing something, I have not done.

My words have been the same from the beginning, I just reposted a bunch of posts I have made concerning free will. From my very first post to the last one. I have said the same thing.

Can you please begin addressing posts instead of doing nothing but saying people are making accusations against you?

 

[Arial]

@Eternally-Grateful
https://christcentered.community.fo...tratagems-or-38-ways-to-win-an-argument.2664/

Do you recognize your methods? It doesn't work with critical thinkers and Bible students, whether schooled or laymen. That is why you are having so much trouble.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

aww is that how we play it. I do not remember saying much to you. But I am sure you followed the conversation

 

[Arial]

We agree to disagree if we cannot agree. And we move on.

702 Post and you have yet to even take your own advice. Is that an observation or an accusation?

 

[Arial]

aww is that how we play it. I do not remember saying much to you. But I am sure you followed the conversation

Did you read the link? Or just mouth off?

 

[Eleanor]

depents.

Look up the word baptism. does that tell us what Rom 6, 1 cor 12 and gal 5 means or how about col 2?

Is "generic" a Biblical word that it would have a Biblical meaning not found in a secular dictionary?

 

[Eleanor]

I agree
But again, as I have witnessed 1000 times
If we both stand firm and say we have the biblical view. Then nothing will get settled.
Thats why WE BOTH need to be open minded.
When someone pulls out the “biblical” card. From what I have witnessed, that (the ability to be open minded) tends to cease to exist..
A perfect example is “all Israel: in romans 11.
To some All israel is the elect. Jew and gentile

The true meaning can be demonstrated from the context.

To others, All Israel is all who are alive at that time who are blood children of Jacob and one of his 12 sons who repent at a specific time in the future (when the fullness of the gentiles is complete)
And then some think it happened in 70 AD.
I am sure there are others. Seems to be many beliefs out there.
We can’t all be right.. and we can not all say we follow the Bible.
So we discuss our views. We agree to disagree if we cannot agree. And we move on.

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

I grew up in the Baptist church.

It shows.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Welp this thread has lost its meaning. And is no longer on par

So I will exit. I think the last free posts in this thread have proven my point

Good day.

 

[Hazelelponi]

aww is that how we play it. I do not remember saying much to you. But I am sure you followed the conversation

Honestly - play what?

Do you want to have a Bible discussion or not?

You say things like John 6 or Romans 10, but you don't mention what verses (For example, Romans 10:9; John 6:27) so they can be discussed in light of other Bible verses.

We are asking for real and actual Biblical discussion.

It's not a game to discuss the Scriptures and what they mean.

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

I understand you are a mod of this chat room. I also understand you have power. and I feel at a disadvantage because you keep making these accusations and I feel I can not say anything about them.

MOD HAT (DialecticSkeptic): Regular members who aren't moderators, like Eternally-Grateful, are not at a disadvantage. If anyone believes that another member is making false accusations against them or misrepresenting them in any way, there is a Report button they can click. That will bring their complaint to the attention of the entire team of moderators to be adjudicated and, if validated, action will be taken.