John 6:44-65

[CrowCross]

Jesus answers that question of what he means by "draws" when he repeats the statement using the words " unless it is granted him by the Father". There is no need to wonder about or speculate about what he means by "draws."

As we see the Father has to "grant".

It may feel like it, but salvations doesn't seem to be our choice.

 

[Red Baker]

No one would come to Christ unless he accepts the Scripture as being true.

Levi, you are not hearing Christ, you are only hearing another voice that you want to hear to be true, base upon what you have been taught and have come to accept as the truth. If one accepts the scriptures to be true, the very words of God, then that person has come to Christ, Jesus clearly said:

John 6:44​

“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

What is it to be draw to Christ? Listen carefully:

John 6:45​

“It is written in the prophets, And they (the elect) shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh (no doubt about coming) unto me.” To even explain this more, consider:

John 6:65​

“And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.”

Christ would be someone who was written about by historians and other uninspired men.

Really, I do not know that to be so, and neither do you~and besides, what does have have to do with John 6:44? Not one thing. I'm not trying to be unkind, but to help you to ponder the scriptures more carefully, which you are not doing very well so far.

The reason the Jews came to Christ was because they believed what was written of him in their Scripture.

Not so Levi~and why do you believe this is so, in light of God's Christ teachings? Consider:

John 1:11​

“He came unto his own, and his own received him not.”

Now Levi, listen very carefully at the next verse:

John 1:12​

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”

Jesus came unto the Jews and they as a whole did not receive him, BUT, as many as did, the power was given unto them to do so! Which the next verse will explain this power, it is God created a new man in them to enabling them to believe~in other words, they were first regenerated and then they had the power/right to believe, but not until then. For no man can come until this new birth takes place! I'm trying to make this as simple as I can.

It was not because God dragged them against their own power.

Dragging them? How about quickening them as the word of God calls this new birth. And yes, you better hope that the new birth is against your sinful, world loving, God hating flesh, which is at enmity against the God of heaven. Do you have a problem with God overcoming the sinner's sinful nature, to freely give them eternal life by his grace and saving their soul from the lake of fire, which is the second death, where sinners will perish for ever?

That’s what I think. If it’s not what you want, so be it.

It make no difference what any man think, nor wants ~ but what saith the word of the Living God.

 

[JIM]

John 1:11
“He came unto his own, and his own received him not.”

Now Levi, listen very carefully at the next verse:

John 1:12​

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”

Jesus came unto the Jews and they as a whole did not receive him, BUT, as many as did, the power was given unto them to do so! Which the next verse will explain this power, it is God created a new man in them to enabling them to believe~in other words, they were first regenerated and then they had the power/right to believe, but not until then. For no man can come until this new birth takes place! I'm trying to make this as simple as I can.

Red, my dear friend, you are twisting the words in that verse. It DOES NOT say the power (the right) was given them to believe. It says the power (the right) was given to them to become the sons of God. Who are the "them"? They are the ones who received him, i.e., those who believe in his name. The addition of "even to them that believe on his name, defined what was meant by received him. “To receive him,” here, means to “believe” on him.

 

[Mr GLee]

@JIM and anyone who wishes to participate.

If you were conducting a Bible study with new believers, going through John and had arrived at John 6:

Someone asks what does it mean "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."?

That will be question one. What would your answer be in your own words without referring to any other scripture at that point. Obviously further biblical exploration would eventually occur in a Bible study. But for now, all the student would want to know is your answer to that question. The same will hold true for all the questions this student asks. Your own words what is the clear meaning of the text itself, no other biblical references.

The next question the student asks is:
2. What does it mean that it is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all?

Same student:
3.When Jesus told them that there were some who did not believe, what did he mean when he added, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."?

I would offer.

Its all about power

The unseen eternal Holy Father is made known by using the flesh of dying mankind (Jesus the Son of man) The witness of two gods. Genesis 1:26 calling us gods as sons of God (John 10:35)

One not seen the eternal Faithfull "let there be" Creator as eternal God. The other created gods the temporal seen, again used to outwardly demonstrate the power of the Father, Christ the husband.

Two working as one. . (1) let there be and (2) it was God alone good . The law Let there be and its testimony the things seen. Called the perfect law of faith (unseen Belief)

Why dying flesh has no value because looking at the flesh of dying mankind Jesus has no value in spiritual eternal matters. It is why no man can come unless the Father pours out his Spirit life on dying flesh in jeapordy of his own Spirit . He gives us little faith (power to believe)calls believers ye of little faith (power) .Not a rebuke but the fact. Just enough to please Him .Peter cried out increase the power(faith)

2 Corihtinans 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

A valuable 20/20 interpreting prescription. Dont begin the studying without that tool . Without parables Christ spoke not .

In all cases the instruction for rightly dividing parables must be applied or no spiritual understanding .It remains a mystery of faith (the unseen eternal things)

No mixing of the, two historical temporal with the eternal invisible, then there is no gospel rest.

Again it remains a mystery as a unsolved parable . it is demonstrated in Hebrew 4 . Some did not apply the value 20/20 tool

Hebrew4:1-2 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

In that way Satan the king of lying signs to wonder, wonder, wonder after (like out of bodies vision or I saw Christ, I had a dream, I heard a voice.

The father of lies can no longer conceal the power of faith the unseen eternal things .That kind of non power the identify theft, gender dysfunction, racist power is on the rise .

Makes me wonder when he does come on the last day under the Sun will he find faith? Power

 

[Mr GLee]

Red, my dear friend, you are twisting the words in that verse. It DOES NOT say the power (the right) was given them to believe. It says the power (the right) was given to them to become the sons of God. Who are the "them"? They are the ones who received him, i.e., those who believe in his name. The addition of "even to them that believe on his name, defined what was meant by received him. “To receive him,” here, means to “believe” on him.

I would offer.

Just think of it as he gave them the right power that which comes from hearing as it is written (sola scriptura) the power to do the will of the unseen Father

 

[Red Baker]

Red, my dear friend, you are twisting the words in that verse. It DOES NOT say the power (the right) was given them to believe. It says the power (the right) was given to them to become the sons of God. Who are the "them"? They are the ones who received him, i.e., those who believe in his name. The addition of "even to them that believe on his name, defined what was meant by received him. “To receive him,” here, means to “believe” on him.

Jim, you and I have debated this one scripture more than I care to number~but one more time, I will respond with this, since I do not think I have ever said this to you in reference to John 1:12.

John 1:12​

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”

To interpret John 1:12, in the way you think it should be understood, then John should have written this verse in this manner:

"As many as received him, became the sons of God, even them that believe on his name."

You would need to leave out "BUT" which means "except"~Jesus came unto his own and they received him not...But...or, except....

So, I ask you who are the exceptions? Jim, it is the one that God gave power to become the sons of God, like Peter, etc. Consider: Matthew16

Matthew 16:13-17~"When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

You also would need to leave out~to them gave he power, for they are the exceptions in the word "but".

Jim, I also have a witness supporting me~John 1:13! Selah.

 

[Mr GLee]

Jim, I also have a witness supporting me~John 1:13! Selah.

Peter was given words of testimony testifying the witness. . in efect ; "You have words of eternal life not dying flesh of eternal life .

Dead flesh will return to dust Dead flesh profits for zero

John6:67-68 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

"Let there be" and "it was God alone good words"

 

[Eleanor]

@JIM and anyone who wishes to participate.

If you were conducting a Bible study with new believers, going through John and had arrived at John 6:

Someone asks what does it mean "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."?

That will be question one. What would your answer be in your own words without referring to any other scripture at that point. Obviously further biblical exploration would eventually occur in a Bible study. But for now, all the student would want to know is your answer to that question. The same will hold true for all the questions this student asks. Your own words what is the clear meaning of the text itself, no other biblical references.

The next question the student asks is:
2. What does it mean that it is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all?

Same student:
3.When Jesus told them that there were some who did not believe, what did he mean when he added, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."?

If they are truly born again, they can and will receive the word of God on his authority just as it is.
They will not object to it, but will seek correct understanding.

However, if they are only seekers, they may well not receive it.

 

[JIM]

Jim, you and I have debated this one scripture more than I care to number~but one more time, I will respond with this, since I do not think I have ever said this to you in reference to John 1:12.

John 1:12​

“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:”

To interpret John 1:12, in the way you think it should be understood, then John should have written this verse in this manner:

"As many as received him, became the sons of God, even them that believe on his name."

You would need to leave out "BUT" which means "except"~Jesus came unto his own and they received him not...But...or, except....

So, I ask you who are the exceptions? Jim, it is the one that God gave power to become the sons of God, like Peter, etc. Consider: Matthew16

Who are the exceptions? He says who those are in verse 12. The exceptions are the ones who actually did receive him and believe in his name,

(ESV) But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

(ISV) However, to all who received him, those believing in his name, he gave authority to become God's children,

(NIrV) Some people did accept him. They believed in his name. He gave them the right to become children of God.

(NIV) Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

 

[Odë:hgöd]

Compel has a meaning of "force" much like drag.

We might tone it down a teensy bit and say it is God who takes the
initiative. In other words: were salvation left entirely up to man, some
people would never get around to it.

Personally I really don't mind if God has to resort to pressure, coercion,
and/or compulsion to get folks in gear when it's for their own good like
when those angels practically yanked Lot out of Sodom. (Gen 19:16)
_

 

[Red Baker]

Cherry-picking verses is no way to study scripture. Sorry friend.

The main cherry picker I see here, would be the man named Levi, I think you know him.

Do you understand that there is context with John 6? I don’t believe you do..

Levi, look at the OP and read it again, you seem to have a problem understanding simple instructions~the whole of chapter six was not under consideration~again read the OP, which states:

@JIM and anyone who wishes to participate.

If you were conducting a Bible study with new believers, going through John and had arrived at John 6:

Someone asks what does it mean "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."?

That will be question one. What would your answer be in your own words without referring to any other scripture at that point. Obviously further biblical exploration would eventually occur in a Bible study. But for now, all the student would want to know is your answer to that question. The same will hold true for all the questions this student asks. Your own words what is the clear meaning of the text itself, no other biblical references.

The next question the student asks is:
2. What does it mean that it is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all?

Same student:
3.When Jesus told them that there were some who did not believe, what did he mean when he added, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."?

Do not come back to me and accuse me of cherry picking when you do not follow simple instructions, yet come in with your own precious agenda that you think all need to hear. If you desire to deal with all of the context of John six then start a thread and I'll come and we shall see who truly is the cherry picker when it come to teaching the word of God. I love to study context as much as any man here, try me and see.

But first address my post to you~post #42

 

[Red Baker]

Twisting the words is essentially what many thrive on. The TV evangelist do it all the time.
They pick a few verses as a way to support their ideas.

When I suggested they consider the context, it was rejected.

In John 6 where they pick the couple of verses out, Jesus was speaking of the manna God had sent to the people because they were hungry.
Jesus tells them he is the true bread(manna) which comes down from heaven.
The analogy is that if they eat of his flesh, and drink of his blood, they will live. He will raise them up on the last day.

Not only do they completely ignore this context, but they say the manna and bread of life is not part of the context.

How is it possible to have a discussion when the context is not only ignored but also claimed the words are not even there?

Jesus had told them that the doctrines he taught were not his own but the Father’s.

In John 6, Jesus is speaking the Father’s doctrine in the form of a metaphor or parable.
He is comparing himself to the manna God had sent for the people to eat. Some of the people were offended because they misunderstood him.
However, the ones who could see past the “fleshly” idea of eating his flesh into the spiritual stayed on with him.

Jesus was drawing them to him by speaking the Father’s doctrine.
IOW, the Father was drawing them to Christ by the words Christ spoke.

Jesus says this clearly, “the words I speak are Spirit and life, the flesh profit nothing”

It’s all there, they simply can’t see it.

They are like the RCC who think they are eating the literal flesh and blood of Christ every Sunday.

Levi, It seem to me that you are perfectly describing yourself, along with other false prophets seen on TV, etc.

Jesus was drawing them to him by speaking the Father’s doctrine. IOW, the Father was drawing them to Christ by the words Christ spoke.

What is the world does this mean, please used scriptures to show us what you are saying is so.

This is not so, for Christ spoke God's word to all, and not all where drawn to God, only those given to him, truly heard, when others the word fell on deaf ears. To many he spoke in parables!

Matthew 13:13​

“Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.”

 

[Red Baker]

The ones who receive him are the wheat. The ones who don’t are the weeds. They grow together in the field or “church”. Jesus separates them and raises them up on the last day. At the harvest.

This is what Jesus is doing when he spoke the parable of the manna and true bread of life.

The Father was drawing men to Christ by the words Christ spoke. Because they were not his own words, but the words of the Father. Jesus taught those words in parables. Some can see, others can’t.
And there you have the wheat and weeds.

The ones that received Christ and his words were elect sheep, others who receive them not, were goats, the reprobates.

John 10:26,27​

“But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:”

 

[Red Baker]

They are born again BY the word of God.
They are not born again and then receive the word of God.

God's elect are born of God in order for them to receive the word of God~life must proceed hearing, seeing, and obeying what they hear.

From an examination of the Biblical passages concerned, we can derive a definition of being born again: A creative act of God whereby He gives spiritual life to a sinful human soul that is passive in the act and is made a child of God.

Scriptural terms used: Born Again John 1:13; 3:3,5,7; Ist Peter 1:23;

Regeneration Titus 3:5; Matt 19:28

Quickening Ephesians 2:1,5; Colossians 2:13Creation Ephesians 2:10; 4:24; James 1:18

Begetting 1 Peter 1:3; James 1:18

Resurrection Revelation 20:6; John 5:25

These terms require divine power. These terms require divine choice. These terms require man’s passivity. These terms require an instantaneous act. These terms require the giving of life. These terms deny any creature activity. These terms require creature death.

Man is totally unable and unwilling to cooperate or assist with his regeneration.

1. He is dead spiritually (Genesis 2:17; Ephesians 2:1,5; Colossians 2:13).

2. He is without strength (Romans 5:6).

3. He is at enmity against God (Romans 8:7).

4. He cannot please God (Romans 8:8).

5. He is blind spiritually (John 3:3).

6. He is deaf spiritually (John 8:43, 47).

7. He is without understanding (1st Corinthians 2:14; Romans 3:11; John 8:43).

8. He is without fear (Romans 3:18)

It sounds as if you have it backwards.

You do have it backward from God's testimony!

 

[CrowCross]

We might tone it down a teensy bit and say it is God who takes the
initiative. In other words: were salvation left entirely up to man, some
people would never get around to it.

I would say if salvation was left up to man...no one would take the initiate.

People need to realize man isn't simply sick....but rather man is dead.

Personally I really don't mind if God has to resort to pressure, coercion,
and/or compulsion to get folks in gear when it's for their own good like
when those angels practically yanked Lot out of Sodom. (Gen 19:16)
_

I agree. People say we will be robots if we can't choose salvation for ourselves....BUT, I would rather be a "robot" than suffer eternity in hell.

 

[JIM]

God's elect are born of God in order for them to receive the word of God~life must proceed hearing, seeing, and obeying what they hear.

But Red, God doesn't actually say that anywhere in the scriptures.

From an examination of the Biblical passages concerned, we can derive a definition of being born again: A creative act of God whereby He gives spiritual life to a sinful human soul that is passive in the act and is made a child of God.

Scriptural terms used: Born Again John 1:13; 3:3,5,7; Ist Peter 1:23;

Regeneration Titus 3:5; Matt 19:28

Quickening Ephesians 2:1,5; Colossians 2:13Creation Ephesians 2:10; 4:24; James 1:18

Begetting 1 Peter 1:3; James 1:18

Resurrection Revelation 20:6; John 5:25

You forgot some important some. How about:

Made alive (a better translation than "quickening")

Passed from death unto life John 5:24

Have put on Christ Galatians 3:26

And perhaps the most common ones:

In Christ, In Him, in Whom used over 100 times throughout the NT

These terms require divine power. These terms require divine choice. These terms require man’s passivity. These terms require an instantaneous act. These terms require the giving of life. These terms deny any creature activity. These terms require creature death.

I agree with most of that, but there really isn't any of those that require man's passivity or that deny any creature activity. Both are your requirements, not God's.

Man is totally unable and unwilling to cooperate or assist with his regeneration.

1. He is dead spiritually (Genesis 2:17; Ephesians 2:1,5; Colossians 2:13).

2. He is without strength (Romans 5:6).

3. He is at enmity against God (Romans 8:7).

4. He cannot please God (Romans 8:8).

5. He is blind spiritually (John 3:3).

6. He is deaf spiritually (John 8:43, 47).

7. He is without understanding (1st Corinthians 2:14; Romans 3:11; John 8:43).

8. He is without fear (Romans 3:18)

You do have it backward from God's testimony!

All of what you have concluded there regarding the physical effects of being spiritually dead are your definitions, not God's. Your definitions of spiritually blind, spiritually deaf, spiritually unseeking, spiritually unrighteous are your won not God's. Such terms are used almost always metaphorically, not literally.

Thus your inference of who has it backward from God's testimony suffers from your insertion into the scriptures of your definition of spiritually dead not God's definition of spiritually dead.

The basic problem with all that you present relative to the question of the OP, What happens first, regeneration or Justification?, is that you demand that in order for the Holy Spirit to have any influence upon the sinner, the sinner must first be born again. That is your interpretation of things. That is wrong.

The actual work of the Holy Spirit in the life of a sinner before being born again is an extensive study in itself which you have neglected. It is a work that you have rejected and have declared to not even exist. Not only have your rejected it, but you have declared the Holy Spirit is actually incapable of such work.

 

[Red Baker]

But Red, God doesn't actually say that anywhere in the scriptures.

Jim, it is God's testimony of this truth, when we take the scriptures as a cohesive whole of teaching certain truths, this truth stands out as a red scarlet thread from Genesis to Revelation. A few doctrines demand this teaching as well. The Lord did say this:

John 3:3​

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

The Lord taught this truth, and so must I.

You forgot some important some. How about:

Made alive (a better translation than "quickening")

Passed from death unto life John 5:24

Have put on Christ Galatians 3:26

And perhaps the most common ones:

In Christ, In Him, in Whom used over 100 times throughout the NT

"Made alive (a better translation than "quickening")" Still has the same meaning ~ you must be made alive spiritually to understand spiritual truth.

"Passed from death unto life John 5:24" ~Jim, no man is able of himself to passed from death, unto life, by his own strength, power, will, etc. impossible. Your dear wife Dot, can not bring herself back to life in her dead state, neither can my dear grandson, who died of cancer almost five years ago.

"Have put on Christ Galatians 3:26" Jim, by water baptism we do indeed put on Christ, his name, faith and the religion of Jesús Christ.

"And perhaps the most common ones:

In Christ, In Him, in Whom used over 100 times throughout the NT"~Jim, I loved this thought, more than you may want to consider. We were first chosen in Christ, before the foundation of the world. We were IN CHRIST while he lived in this world, and were in him when he died, rose, and his now seated in the heavens! Practically speaking, there is a time during the days of our flesh, that we are in Christ visibly by our confess, baptism, etc. All of us in Christ at different times in this sense.

All of what you have concluded there regarding the physical effects of being spiritually dead are your definitions, not God's. Your definitions of spiritually blind, spiritually deaf, spiritually unseeking, spiritually unrighteous are your own not God's. Such terms are used almost always metaphorically, not literally.

Jim, I did not moved holy men of old to write the word of God~the Holy Ghost did, I just believe the testimony given by them ~ mainly because it is God's testimony of the truth; and secondly, I have seen this to be so, in my life and dealing with men and women for almost 77 years.

Not only have your rejected it, but you have declared the Holy Spirit is actually incapable of such work.

A red herring fallacy Jim~I have never declare the Holy Spirit is limited in any work, if He decides to work~of course he can do as He pleases, with whomsoever he wills, if He pleases to do so, if not, then He does not.

 

[Mr GLee]

All of what you have concluded there regarding the physical effects of being spiritually dead are your definitions, not God's. Your definitions of spiritually blind, spiritually deaf, spiritually unseeking, spiritually unrighteous are your won not God's. Such terms are used almost always metaphorically, not literally.

Thus your inference of who has it backward from God's testimony suffers from your insertion into the scriptures of your definition of spiritually dead not God's definition of spiritually dead.

The basic problem with all that you present relative to the question of the OP, What happens first, regeneration or Justification?, is that you demand that in order for the Holy Spirit to have any influence upon the sinner, the sinner must first be born again. That is your interpretation of things. That is wrong.

I would offer

Be careful what we hear by whom we say we do.

There are many that push the false agenda seek after signs to wonder or marvel rather prophecy .(sola scriptura)

We know what happened first and foremost the power of ."Let there be" and "it was God alone good".

Physical effect of the spiritually dead??

Physical things seen follows the spiritual. Called the law of faith. Again "Let there be" and the flesh "was good".

Mark 4:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name (power) shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen../

Signs follow never lead. No sign gifts .spiritual unseen yes .

Signs are used a represent the unseen power of Christ as metaphors in parables . .Follow the "let there be". Law of faith (unseen eternal things )

According to our new tongue the power of the gospel. Christ working in us. He cast out lying spirits and if influenced by the poison of false doctrine it will not affect them.

Outward signs follow the deceived .( I did it it proves it) or caled strange fire (adding to prophecy)

Lying signs to wonder, wonder, wonder after as if true prophecy.

Satan working overtime .

God keeps sending the stronger delusion to sign and wonder seekers.

Sign and wonder seekers like Nicodemus sought them to wonder rather than prophecy . It why Jesus lovingly commanded Nicodemus to marvel or wonder not at the greatest possible miracle born again .

Wondering marveling is not exercising faith as power . . . to raise the dead

All of those that seek after signs to wonder after rather than prophecy made Jesus into a circus seal .Do a trick work some magic. Then when we see it with our own eyes. Then we will believe for a 1/2 a second

John 4:48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Satan's only voice lying signs that men wonder wonder wonder after

Believers have prophecy till the last day under the Sun No need to wonder, wonder, wonder. Limbo. . Purgatory

 

[JIM]

Jim, it is God's testimony of this truth, when we take the scriptures as a cohesive whole of teaching certain truths, this truth stands out as a red scarlet thread from Genesis to Revelation. A few doctrines demand this teaching as well. The Lord did say this:

John 3:3​

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

The Lord taught this truth, and so must I.

And even here, your own personal view of things are inserted into God's word. You would conclude what from John 3;3? That it means the non-regenerated person's eyes do not function properly? I don't think you believe that. So what does it mean? I would posit that it means exactly the same as John 3:5 which is just a repeat of John 3:3 stated for emphasis.

"Made alive (a better translation than "quickening")" Still has the same meaning ~ you must be made alive spiritually to understand spiritual truth.

What is spiritual truth in contrast to any other truth.? Is the truth that God is the creator of all a spiritual truth? If so, how can Paul make the statement that he does in Romans 1:18-32. He says, Rom 1:32 Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. Is it not a spiritual truth that it is God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die?

Red, I think you pick and choose what you think is spiritual truth that the unregenerate cannot understand.

"Passed from death unto life John 5:24" ~Jim, no man is able of himself to passed from death, unto life, by his own strength, power, will, etc. impossible. Your dear wife Dot, can not bring herself back to life in her dead state, neither can my dear grandson, who died of cancer almost five years ago.

First John 5:24 has absolutely nothing to do with physical life and death - NOTHING. There is not even the slightest similarity between physical life and death and spiritual life and death. It is to your theological detriment that you try to even draw any similarity. That is but one of the monumental weaknesses of the Calvinist doctrine.

"Have put on Christ Galatians 3:26" Jim, by water baptism we do indeed put on Christ, his name, faith and the religion of Jesús Christ.

"And perhaps the most common ones:

In Christ, In Him, in Whom used over 100 times throughout the NT"~Jim, I loved this thought, more than you may want to consider. We were first chosen in Christ, before the foundation of the world. We were IN CHRIST while he lived in this world, and were in him when he died, rose, and his now seated in the heavens!

That is another one of those wholly irrational concepts of the Calvinist mind. Not only were we NOT in Christ while he lived in this world, and were in him when he died, rose, and his now seated in the heavens, we did not even exist, either physically or spiritually.

Practically speaking, there is a time during the days of our flesh, that we are in Christ visibly by our confess, baptism, etc. All of us in Christ at different times in this sense.

No, that is not true. You know from your own life on this earth that there is no way to physically identify with any degree of accuracy who has been born again and who has not.

Jim, I did not moved holy men of old to write the word of God~the Holy Ghost did, I just believe the testimony given by them ~ mainly because it is God's testimony of the truth; and secondly, I have seen this to be so, in my life and dealing with men and women for almost 77 years.

What you believe to be the testimony given by them is what you, yourself, have determined to believe.

A red herring fallacy Jim~I have never declare the Holy Spirit is limited in any work, if He decides to work~of course he can do as He pleases, with whomsoever he wills, if He pleases to do so, if not, then He does not.

Perhaps, but what you declare again and again, is that nothing the Holy Spirit does has any effect upon the unregenerate, spiritually. So, according to you, then, it simply pleases Him not to do so. And the fact that He could is moot. You obviously believe that He doesn't do any work in the life of the regenerate. I reject that and all that it entails, which is the whole of the Calvinist soteriology.

 

[JIM]

I would offer

Be careful what we hear by whom we say we do.

There are many that push the false agenda seek after signs to wonder or marvel rather prophecy .(sola scriptura)

We know what happened first and foremost the power of ."Let there be" and "it was God alone good".

Physical effect of the spiritually dead??

Physical things seen follows the spiritual. Called the law of faith. Again "Let there be" and the flesh "was good".

Mark 4:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name (power) shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen../

Signs follow never lead. No sign gifts .spiritual unseen yes .

Signs are used a represent the unseen power of Christ as metaphors in parables . .Follow the "let there be". Law of faith (unseen eternal things )

According to our new tongue the power of the gospel. Christ working in us. He cast out lying spirits and if influenced by the poison of false doctrine it will not affect them.

Outward signs follow the deceived .( I did it it proves it) or caled strange fire (adding to prophecy)

Lying signs to wonder, wonder, wonder after as if true prophecy.

Satan working overtime .

God keeps sending the stronger delusion to sign and wonder seekers.

Sign and wonder seekers like Nicodemus sought them to wonder rather than prophecy . It why Jesus lovingly commanded Nicodemus to marvel or wonder not at the greatest possible miracle born again .

Wondering marveling is not exercising faith as power . . . to raise the dead

All of those that seek after signs to wonder after rather than prophecy made Jesus into a circus seal .Do a trick work some magic. Then when we see it with our own eyes. Then we will believe for a 1/2 a second

John 4:48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Satan's only voice lying signs that men wonder wonder wonder after

Believers have prophecy till the last day under the Sun No need to wonder, wonder, wonder. Limbo. . Purgatory

Mr Glee, what do you think is the significance of the following: John 20:30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name ?