John 6:44-65

[Arial]

If I were the teacher and if he were a babe in Christ, we wouldn't be at John 6:44.

Let's stick to the hypothetical of the OP since it is my OP. I am trying to get at something here that should be beneficial to all students of the Bible, recognizing where we so often believe things without ever doing the systematic work of apologetics using the whole of scripture. Instead what is frequently done is isolated scriptures are used out of context and void of use of the full counsel of God on any given subject, to support an already existing suppositional belief. All the while ignoring also the contradictions in Scripture that are created by doing that.

This has been clearly illustrated already. Four people have responded to this OP and only one of them actually dealt with the OP. The rest wandered off into deflection. Guess who the one was? A Calvinist/Reformed. I do not point that out to gloat, but to prompt the donning of thinking caps. Recognize the red flags in our beliefs and how we arrive at them.

 

[Arial]

I am not going to given him an answer to his question devoid of all the rest of scripture. That would be no answer at all.

The OP states that the BIble study is on the book of John and that the class has arrived at John 6. So, for your sake since you refuse to give the honest answer to the question asked about John 6:44: Which is it means exactly what it says. In order for someone to come to Christ the Father must draw him. If the Father does not draw him, he cannot because he will not, come to Christ. So to give you a bit more leeway in answering the question of the student and your insistence that it can only be answered with the rest of scripture (which would make for an unending Bible study if you mean all the rest of Scripture) answer it according to what the class has already read---the first five chapters. Refer back to particularly chapters 1-3 and verses 22-43 of chapter 6 which pertain to the conversation. But nothing after verse 44 for in the hypothetical question one that is as far as the reading has gone.

Only after that has been done can the question concerning the meaning of verse 45 be answered. "What does it mean then that "they will all be taught by the Father and everyone who has heard and learned from him comes to Him?"

Give it a go.

 

[Red Baker]

If I were the teacher and if he were a babe in Christ, we wouldn't be at John 6:44.

Jim, listen carefully to the OP~

If you were conducting a Bible study with new believers, going through John and had arrived at John 6:

Jim, all of the word of God from John 1:1, which is one of the most difficult scriptures for even the most advance student, must be explain as well; so, why not address each scripture as they come to them. Truly, John chapter six do not have any hard scriptures to understand, maybe hard to accept, which has proven to be so, because they do not agree with folks carnal mind, which is at enmity against God and against the god that they have created within their own depraved hearts of what they would do, if they were God

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.​

No man can come to me.

Someone asks what does it mean "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him."?

That will be question one. What would your answer be in your own words without referring to any other scripture at that point.

I would say to those at this bible study........this scripture is clear, that no man can come to Jesus Christ.

The next question the student asks is:
2. What does it mean that it is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all?

I would tell them, that unless/except the Spirit of God first quickens one to life, which is absolutely necessary, before one can come/believe. And I would proceed to tell them, the reason why one cannot come is that our flesh is under bondage to sin and the devil, thereby, the Spirit must quickens one to life so they can come.

Same student:
3.When Jesus told them that there were some who did not believe, what did he mean when he added, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."?

Because only those given the power to believe can believe and no one else can!

 

[LeviR]

Jim, listen carefully to the OP~

Jim, all of the word of God from John 1:1, which is one of the most difficult scriptures for even the most advance student, must be explain as well; so, why not address each scripture as they come to them. Truly, John chapter six do not have any hard scriptures to understand, maybe hard to accept, which has proven to be so, because they do not agree with folks carnal mind, which is at enmity against God and against the god that they have created within their own depraved hearts of what they would do, if they were God

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.​

No man can come to me.

I would say to those at this bible study........this scripture is clear, that no man can come to Jesus Christ.


I would tell them, that unless/except the Spirit of God first quickens one life, which is absolutely necessary, before one can come/believe. And I would proceed to tell them, the reason why one cannot come is that our flesh is under bondage to sin and the devil, thereby, the Spirit must quickens one to life so they can come.

Because only those given the power to believe can believe and no one else can!

No one would come to Christ unless he accepts the Scripture as being true. If it were not for the Scripture and the acceptance of them, the truth would be lost.
Christ would be someone who was written about by historians and other uninspired men.
The reason the Jews came to Christ was because they believed what was written of him in their Scripture.
It was not because God dragged them against their own power.
That’s what I think.
If it’s nor what you want, so be it.

 

[Arial]

No one would come to Christ unless he accepts the Scripture as being true. If it were not for the Scripture and the acceptance of them, the truth would be lost.

Hereis the scripture: "No one can come to me unless the Father draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

Where in there does it say one single thing about those who would come, or anything about accepting the Scripture as being true? You are once again not giving the meaning as to what Jesus means (the one who said it) but according to what it means to YOU. That is not what was asked. If you answered that person in the way that you have answered here, you would have not only not actually answered their question but set them on a road of confusion and false teaching. Which sadly is what happens in a great many Bible studies.

People look within their own minds and ponderings for the answer instead of to the actual meaning---which is whatever the author meant and was saying. What God is saying. It is not Bible study at all. So let's try and change that.

So far only a couple of people have been able to actually address Jesus' meaning. Instead the scripture that is to be addressed is entirely passed over, the question never answered for that poor student, and chances are, he will pass right over it himself from that time forward every time he reads it. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

 

[LeviR]

Hereis the scripture: "No one can come to me unless the Father draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

Where in there does it say one single thing about those who would come, or anything about accepting the Scripture as being true? You are once again not giving the meaning as to what Jesus means (the one who said it) but according to what it means to YOU. That is not what was asked. If you answered that person in the way that you have answered here, you would have not only not actually answered their question but set them on a road of confusion and false teaching. Which sadly is what happens in a great many Bible studies.

People look within their own minds and ponderings for the answer instead of to the actual meaning---which is whatever the author meant and was saying. What God is saying. It is not Bible study at all. So let's try and change that.

So far only a couple of people have been able to actually address Jesus' meaning. Instead the scripture that is to be addressed is entirely passed over, the question never answered for that poor student, and chances are, he will pass right over it himself from that time forward every time he reads it. Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

The verse begs the question as to how the Father draws men to Christ.
You seem to already know how. Therefore, the only correct answer would be the one that answers your assumption.

Your assumption is that no one can come to Christ unless the Father actively is drawing them to Christ whereas otherwise they would have no interest in Christ.

However, isn’t it possible that the scripture themselves are what draw men to Christ?
After all, the scripture is given by God Himself.
The Father will draw men to Christ who are willing to accept what He says about Him.

 

[Arial]

The verse begs the question as to how the Father draws men to Christ.

No it doesn't. The only reason it would is if someone were trying to avoid what the passage clearly says. Which is that God is doing the drawing, and unless he does, a person cannot come to Christ. In the scenario of the OP the first five chapters have already been read. They tell us that no one can see the kingdom unless they are first born again and that they are born from above, by the will of God, not by the will of man.

They tell us that it is the Spirit who brings this new birth (so God and the Holy Spirit are one in essence). In those chapters it is John speaking. Jesus is simply stating the same things.

Therefore, the only correct answer would be the one that answers your assumption.

There is only one correct answer and the one I give is exactly what the clear words mean, so it is not an assumption. An assumption would be when someone messes around with the clarity in order to not mean what it does mean and fit their desired, or ingrained, belief instead. Can you see that? Can you see that that is what you are doing?

Your assumption is that no one can come to Christ unless the Father actively is drawing them to Christ whereas otherwise they would have no interest in Christ.

I don't assume that. The text is quite clear on the matter. But to correct your statement. I have never said that without this drawing no one would have an interest in Christ. Every non-Christian religion of the world and every heretical teaching has an interest in Christ. Interest in him does not save.

However, isn’t it possible that the scripture themselves are what draw men to Christ?

No. It is God who draws a person to the Scripture so they hear and believe. Plenty of people are "drawn" to Scripture and never believe because they were drawn to them by something else, primarily themselves, or a casual curious interest, or tradition but they were not drawn there by God. And the passage does not say what you say above. It says unless God draws them. Later it says unless God grants it.

The Father will draw men to Christ who are willing to accept what He says about Him.

But didn't we just read Jesus saying they cannot come unless he grants it?

Didn't we just read that no one becomes a child of God by their own will and that the flesh is no help at all?

 

[Odë:hgöd]

.
● John 6:45 . . Everyone who listens to the Father, and learns from Him, comes to
me.

The Greek word translated "listens" basically pertains to giving God one's undivided
attention in order to make sure we "get it". Needless to say; as a rule: good listeners
are typically good students.

For example; one of my elementary school teachers assigned the class to look up
certain words in a dictionary at home. Well; I couldn't find even one those words but
next day at school a girl sitting one desk ahead of mine told me she found all of
them. When I asked the girl how she did it; she explained that words in the dictionary
are in alphabetical order.

As it turned out, I was adrift in my own little world when the teacher told us how to
use a dictionary. In other words: I wasn't listening.

A keen ear not only gets students ahead in the academic world, but in the spiritual
world too.

● John 5:24 . . I assure you: those who listen to my message, and believe in God who
sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have
already passed from death into life.
_

 

[CrowCross]

● John 6:44 . . No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.

What does draws him mean? Is it a "here kitty, kitty" type of wooing or should draw (1670. helkó) be used like the word drag is used elsewhere in scripture?

Reference verse...Acts 21:30 And the whole city was provoked, and there was a rushing together of the people. And having laid hold of Paul, they dragged him outside the temple, and immediately the doors were shut.

 

[CrowCross]

The Father will draw men to Christ who are willing to accept what He says about Him.

Why would one man be willing and another not?

Is it an IQ thing?
Is it a what side of the tracks you grew up on thing?
Is it dependent on who your high school teacher or professor was?

In other words, is it life's happenstance that bends your thinking towards or away from Christ? Or God doing all of it?

 

[LeviR]

Why would one man be willing and another not?

Is it an IQ thing?
Is it a what side of the tracks you grew up on thing?
Is it dependent on who your high school teacher or professor was?

In other words, is it life's happenstance that bends your thinking towards or away from Christ? Or God doing all of it?

Maybe salvation?

 

[Odë:hgöd]

What does draws him mean?

Jesus told a parable about a man whose invited guests found excuses not to attend
a special fiesta. So he instructed his servant to go and invite the dregs of society;
and also anybody else he came across out on the open road-- not merely invite
people to attend but "compel" them to attend.

In other words: the servant gave the strangers but two options: ether come with
him to the fiesta now, or deal with the host's anger later: your choice.
_

 

[Red Baker]

The verse begs the question as to how the Father draws men to Christ.

Tomorrow I will address this more in depth. Resting for the remaining of the day.

 

[Arial]

● John 6:45 . . Everyone who listens to the Father, and learns from Him, comes to
me.

What does it mean in the context. IOW what did Jesus mean in context with what he had previously said and in context with John 1-3?

I never fail to be amazed at the number of people who come into another person's thread in order to hijack if from its intent by putting forth their ideas on a completely different topic.

I guess it expresses loud and clear that the op was structured in a way that to adhere to its structure and content it would soundly refute beyond a shadow of a doubt a theology and doctrine they are strongly opposed to. To keep true to the OP structure and content it would expose to the light of day how many are the shortcomings in the ways in which Bible study is approached, even privately, that lead to beliefs contradictory to biblical teaching, and cling tightly to them.

Should we embrace the truths of God and salvation that God's word teaches even if it is uncomfortable and rocks our boat? Should we be willing to learn and grow? Or should we simply go blithely along content with our truth?

 

[Arial]

Jesus told a parable about a man whose invited guests found excuses not to attend
a special fiesta. So he instructed his servant to go and invite the dregs of society;
and also anybody else they came across out on the open road-- not merely invite
people to attend but "compel" them to attend.

In other words: the servant gave the strangers but two options: ether come with
him to the fiesta now, or deal with the host's anger later: your choice.
_

The problem with using that to define what Jesus means when he says "No one can come to me unless the Father draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." is that one is a parable illustrating Israel (those who were invited), and the other is a direct statement of truth from Jesus. Plus if you are referring to att 22:1-22 it does not say they were to compel them to attend. (Gentiles in the parable) The first is about how one enters the kingdom of heaven. The second is about what the kingdom of heave will be like.

Jesus himself defines what he means by "draws" him when he repeats the sentence only says "grants" instead of draws.

Your post in no way answers the question.

 

[Arial]

What does draws him mean? Is it a "here kitty, kitty" type of wooing or should draw (1670. helkó) be used like the word drag is used elsewhere in scripture?

Reference verse...Acts 21:30 And the whole city was provoked, and there was a rushing together of the people. And having laid hold of Paul, they dragged him outside the temple, and immediately the doors were shut.

Jesus answers that question of what he means by "draws" when he repeats the statement using the words " unless it is granted him by the Father". There is no need to wonder about or speculate about what he means by "draws."

 

[LeviR]

Jesus answers that question of what he means by "draws" when he repeats the statement using the words " unless it is granted him by the Father". There is no need to wonder about or speculate about what he means by "draws."

Wasn’t Jesus comparing himself to the manna?

The Father gave them manna, now He gives them Jesus.

The people came to what the Father gave them. And they did eat.

The Father gave them Jesus. If they hunger and thirst they come to what the Father gives them (Jesus).

 

[Arial]

Wasn’t Jesus comparing himself to the manna?

The Father gave them manna, now He gives them Jesus.

The people came to what the Father gave them. And they did eat.

The Father gave them Jesus. If they hunger and thirst they come to what the Father gives them (Jesus).

Jesus was not comparing himself to the manna. He said he was the true bread that came down from heaven. But what does your post have to do with "No one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."?

 

[LeviR]

Jesus was not comparing himself to the manna. He said he was the true bread that came down from heaven. But what does your post have to do with "No one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."?

He wasn’t comparing himself to the manna?
Ok, thanks.

 

[CrowCross]

Jesus told a parable about a man whose invited guests found excuses not to attend
a special fiesta. So he instructed his servant to go and invite the dregs of society;
and also anybody else he came across out on the open road-- not merely invite
people to attend but "compel" them to attend.

In other words: the servant gave the strangers but two options: ether come with
him to the fiesta now, or deal with the host's anger later: your choice.
_

Compel has a meaning of "force" much like drag.