Jesus was never prayed to once in the Bible

[Runningman]

You affirmed that you communicate with others besides God in heaven.
https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/what-does-deity-of-christ-mean.1450/page-5#post-59727
Wouldn't that be praying to them?

And...who are these others?

Man I don't envy your indefensible position, lacking any sort of actual Biblical support with which to defend your beliefs with. Furthermore, you are contradicting Jesus.

Did Jesus lie in verses Matt 6:6,9 where he explicitly taught them that when they pray to pray to the Father?

 

[Fred]

Man I don't envy your indefensible position,

That is in reference to yourself because the two points in my previous post have been dodged by you.

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/jesus-was-never-prayed-to-once-in-the-bible.1479/page-19#post-62373

Intense evasion you got going in here.
This thread of yours is a disaster.

 

[Runningman]

That is in reference to yourself because the two points in my previous post have been dodged by you.

Great work!

So you still haven't quoted anything about Jesus being prayed to in the Bible. The more you post the more it proves it. You got nothing. Have you ever considered you aren't on the right track? Why do you do something that the Bible doesn't say? Are you a Christian? That's a serious question.

 

[Fred]

So you still

...are waiting for you to respond to my two points.

 

[Runningman]

...are waiting for you to respond to my two points.

You edited the comment after I had already written a response to it. Maybe you should be sure that your comments are complete before editing them after they're replied to. There is nothing genuine about that.

Are you a Christian?

 

[Fred]

You edited the comment after I had already written a response to it.

Yeah, so?

You keep dodging.

Deal with it.

 

[Runningman]

Yeah, so?

It's bad forum etiquette. Are you new to message boards?

You keep dodging.

Deal with it.

Let's get this straight. I didn't dodge anything, but after I had already replied you edited the comment and said I am not answering your questions? What a joke.

 

[Fred]

It's bad forum etiquette.

That would describe a person who starts a thread about praying to God which they affirmed involves communication with Him, but they elsewhere affirm they communicate with others in heaven.

When asked who these others are, they dodge the question numerous times.

So go whimper on the shoulder of someone else.

 

[Arial]

In a bible discussion we will talk about our views and then provide the scripture that evidences or proves those beliefs. That is exactly what I am doing. I did demonstrate with exegesis why what I am telling you the Bible says is true. You need to rebuttal me rather than denying I am addressing what you said. What specifically are you referring to?

This demonstrates that you have no idea what exegesis is. No concept of what a sincere discussion is. (It is not simply stating your views---that is done at the beginning of a conversation and it moves on from there). You give scripture (always isolated from any context)that you have taken as supporting your views. I return showing with context, surrounding, historical, the full counsel of God on the subject and related subjects, that show it does not, or may not if you prefer, support your view. In response to that if you disagree, you show where it is wrong, and why, using the same method, the same criteria. I do my part. You do not do yours.

That btw is how the word is rightly divided/handled, that keeps it consistent within itself.

To say that you do not understand what I mean or what I refer to, shows that you cannot or will not even learn by example on how to exeget, expound, or discuss. Let alone give any consideration to what anyone says beside yourself and those who agree with you that, in this case, Jesus is not God. (Your view, not mine.) It shows no genuine interest in searching for truth. You are happy with your truth, say it is God's truth on the basis that it is yours, and have no interest in actually finding out. You will hear nothing that says otherwise, so that is a locked door, a locked mind. You will not even learn by example, how to have a discussion and actually support a view.

I will quote from my own post a specific. If you think what I am saying is not accurate, then you must show me why it is not accurate, if you think what I say does not present Jesus as deity, as the Word eternally with the Father, then it is on you to present a valid case against it. Not just hearsay or supposition or speculation, or what ifs and sometimes. If you don't do that, I am not wasting anymore of my time in the discussion.

So lets, try again. I will go back to the passages in John 1, and let's find out what the use of logos by John was intended. That is what matters. Not some generic definition of a translation---logos into word. It takes a bit of understanding of the culture in which John was living as a Jew, but a subject of the Roman Empire, surrounded by paganism. The gospel was most likely written around 90 a.d. Logos of course is a Greek word that in Greek philosophy, referred to logic or reason as an abstract force that brought order and harmony into the universe. In John's writings it was these qualities that he brought gathered in the person of Christ. (Jesus and Christ refer to the incarnation.) In both Greek philosophy and Neo-platonic philosophy of that day, as well as the Gnostic heresy, logos was seen as one of many intermediate powers between God and the world.

John said, no, there is one logos and He was in the beginning (Gen 1) and He was with God, and He was God. And repeats, He was with God in the beginning. And all things were made through Him. he is not using "word" poetically, and he is not using word as respect to speech. ὁ λόγος (John 1:1) which denotes the essential Word of God,i.e. the personal (hypostatic) wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in the creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah and shone forth conspiculously from His words and deeds. John 1:1,14; 1 John 5:7) from Strongs.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

None of them prayed to Jesus. You're still not getting it. Nothing in the Bible says Jesus was actually prayed to. Why do you refuse to obey Jesus's teachings in Matt 6:6,9?

Why do you refuse to acknowledge the incarnation and the limitations Christ put upon Himself so that He could be made like us? Truly He is God with us if we believe.

 

[Arial]

None of them prayed to Jesus. You're still not getting it. Nothing in the Bible says Jesus was actually prayed to. Why do you refuse to obey Jesus's teachings in Matt 6:6,9?

Were you privy to all their prayers? You don't get it. The apostles made it clear that Jesus is deity when they announced that He was in the biginnin, and with God in the beginning. When they accredited creation to Him. When they said He was exalted above everything that was created etc. They don't have to say "Pray to Jesus." It is understood that when we pray to God we are praying to Jesus. And if we are not to pray to Him, why is He interceding for us with the Father?

You do know, don't you, that prayer is not all about asking for stuff?

Matt 6:6 But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

Do you do that---go into your room and shut the door? If Jesus were giving strict commands on how to pray, then we would not be able to do another things He says to do, "Pray without ceasing." What is that instruction in context with, that gives it its meaning? 5. And when you ray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues----that they may be seen by others.

It was also said while the law was still in effect and to those under the law. Jesus had not yet died, risen, ascended.

9. Pray like this: "Our Father in heaven---"

Is that the only prayer you ever pray and do you pray it exact? If that is what Jesus was teaching then his other teaching about not saying rote prayers is null and void. He is not teaching that after His ascension He is not to be prayed to. That is not even what the discussion is about. Don't get fixated and create doctrines from your fixations.

 

[Runningman]

That would describe a person who starts a thread about praying to God which they affirmed involves communication with Him, but they elsewhere affirm they communicate with others in heaven.

When asked who these others are, they dodge the question numerous times.

So go whimper on the shoulder of someone else.

Not my fault you got called out on stealth-editing your post in order to malign me. It backfired and only hurt your non-existent credibility. The last Biblical point you attempted to make you quoted verses and bolded the words "disciples." You're really scraping the bottom of the barrel.

 

[Runningman]

This demonstrates that you have no idea what exegesis is. No concept of what a sincere discussion is. (It is not simply stating your views---that is done at the beginning of a conversation and it moves on from there). You give scripture (always isolated from any context)that you have taken as supporting your views. I return showing with context, surrounding, historical, the full counsel of God on the subject and related subjects, that show it does not, or may not if you prefer, support your view. In response to that if you disagree, you show where it is wrong, and why, using the same method, the same criteria. I do my part. You do not do yours.

That btw is how the word is rightly divided/handled, that keeps it consistent within itself.

To say that you do not understand what I mean or what I refer to, shows that you cannot or will not even learn by example on how to exeget, expound, or discuss. Let alone give any consideration to what anyone says beside yourself and those who agree with you that, in this case, Jesus is not God. (Your view, not mine.) It shows no genuine interest in searching for truth. You are happy with your truth, say it is God's truth on the basis that it is yours, and have no interest in actually finding out. You will hear nothing that says otherwise, so that is a locked door, a locked mind. You will not even learn by example, how to have a discussion and actually support a view.

I will quote from my own post a specific. If you think what I am saying is not accurate, then you must show me why it is not accurate, if you think what I say does not present Jesus as deity, as the Word eternally with the Father, then it is on you to present a valid case against it. Not just hearsay or supposition or speculation, or what ifs and sometimes. If you don't do that, I am not wasting anymore of my time in the discussion.

This is a lot of talking, but ultimately means a whole lot of nothing in regards to the OP. Don't derail this thread with your soapbox rants about what you think is the proper way to exegete a passage.

 

[Runningman]

Why do you refuse to acknowledge the incarnation and the limitations Christ put upon Himself so that He could be made like us?

Verses?

Truly He is God with us if we believe.

Believing something doesn't make it true.

 

[Runningman]

Were you privy to all their prayers? You don't get it.

Were you? you don't get it.

The apostles made it clear that Jesus is deity when they announced that He was in the biginnin, and with God in the beginning.

They never said Jesus was in the beginning. Where do you see "Jesus was in the beginning" at?

When they accredited creation to Him.

The creator is the Sovereign Lord of heaven and earth while Jesus is His servent. See Acts 4:24,27.

Furthermore, the Lord of Heaven and Earth is the creator, not Jesus. God created the church through Jesus. God and Jesus can work together without Jesus being God. There is no precedent for the point you are trying to make. Jesus is a human. Please don't say a human created the universe.

When they said He was exalted above everything that was created etc

Who exalted Jesus?

They don't have to say "Pray to Jesus." It is understood that when we pray to God we are praying to Jesus.

Not according to scripture. Do you believe Jesus is the Father that he told his disciples to pray to?

And if we are not to pray to Him, why is He interceding for us with the Father?

Do you believe that no one comes to the Father except through the Son? Do you believe Jesus is our high priest?

You do know, don't you, that prayer is not all about asking for stuff?

I know that prayer is reserved only for God.

Matt 6:6 But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

Do you do that---go into your room and shut the door? If Jesus were giving strict commands on how to pray, then we would not be able to do another things He says to do, "Pray without ceasing." What is that instruction in context with, that gives it its meaning? 5. And when you ray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues----that they may be seen by others.

Yes when I pray in my home my doors are shut. Whatever happened to @CrowCross who bet me $1 million dollars? I am still waiting for him to come out of hiding after losing that bet.

It was also said while the law was still in effect and to those under the law. Jesus had not yet died, risen, ascended.

9. Pray like this: "Our Father in heaven---"

That isn't a point. The model of prayer Jesus gave to world isn't part of the law.

Is that the only prayer you ever pray and do you pray it exact? If that is what Jesus was teaching then his other teaching about not saying rote prayers is null and void. He is not teaching that after His ascension He is not to be prayed to. That is not even what the discussion is about. Don't get fixated and create doctrines from your fixations.

If you pray to Jesus then you aren't following what the Bible explicitly teaches. Period. I didn't write the Bible. Take it up with God.

 

[Fred]

Not my fault you got called out on stealth-editing

I didn't care, and I still don't because you are still in hiding concerning The List.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Verses?

Those who hold beliefs such as these are not convinced by verses. But for anyone else reading perhaps it will bring them a blessing.

Therefore, it was necessary for him to be made in every respect like us, his brothers and sisters, so that he could be our merciful and faithful High Priest before God. Then he could offer a sacrifice that would take away the sins of the people. Heb 2:17

rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. Philippians 2:7

Believing something doesn't make it true.

Believing something doesn't make it false either.

 

[Runningman]

Those who hold beliefs such as these are not convinced by verses. But for anyone else reading perhaps it will bring them a blessing.

Sounds like you're just saying "trust me on this one."

Therefore, it was necessary for him to be made in every respect like us, his brothers and sisters, so that he could be our merciful and faithful High Priest before God. Then he could offer a sacrifice that would take away the sins of the people. Heb 2:17

Or perhaps if he's like a human in every way then he's just a human after all.

If you saw someone walking down the street how would you know which one God is?

Perhaps the one who said they are God. Well, that wouldn't be Jesus. Perhaps the one who did something amazing like a miracle In that case, what if he had 12 disciples who were all doing miracles?

rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. Philippians 2:7

Doesn't that mean he isn't God?

Believing something doesn't make it false either.

Technically you're free to make up anything you want, but as for me I am just concerned with what the Bible says.

 

[Arial]

Were you?

No I wasn't. That is why I don't go around saying they "Never prayed to Jesus."

They never said Jesus was in the beginning. Where do you see "Jesus was in the beginning" at?

John 1:1-3; John 1:10; 1 Cor 8:5-6;Col 1:16;Heb 1:1-2

The creator is the Sovereign Lord of heaven and earth while Jesus is His servent. See Acts 4:24,27.

Furthermore, the Lord of Heaven and Earth is the creator, not Jesus. God created the church through Jesus. God and Jesus can work together without Jesus being God. There is no precedent for the point you are trying to make. Jesus is a human. Please don't say a human created the universe.

I never said a human created the universe. The Bible not me, says attributes creation to Jesus and does so in a number of places. Which of course, means He is God come to us as man. You are the one who says Jesus is only human and not an incarnation. Those scriptures speaking of Him in connection with creation say ALL things, not the church.

Who exalted Jesus?

The Father God.

Not according to scripture. Do you believe Jesus is the Father that he told his disciples to pray to?

No. Not Jesus while present in His earthly mission, before He had been crucified and returned to where He was before (John 17). Question: Is "Father" the thrust and meaning behind that prayer, (the instruction He was giving them)---is that the only thing you got from it? I ask because using that as a proof text for saying we are only to pray to the Father and not Jesus is shallow.

Do you believe that no one comes to the Father except through the Son? Do you believe Jesus is our high priest?

Yes.

I know that prayer is reserved only for God.

So do I. Jesus is the second person of the triune God.

Yes when I pray in my home my doors are shut.

Jesus said "room" not "home". And is that the only place your pray? After all Jesus said "When you pray go into---".

That isn't a point. The model of prayer Jesus gave to world isn't part of the law.

Now you equivocate. If it is a model prayer, why is "Father" not also a part of that model?

If you pray to Jesus then you aren't following what the Bible explicitly teaches.

Would you consider talking to Jesus or the Father, communing with them, prayer. Would you consider praise to them prayer? If the Bible tells us that the Father does certain things, the Son does other things, the Holy Spirit yet other things, (and it does, surely you don't deny that) and we are offering thanksgiving---do we thank the Father for dying on the cross? Do we thank Jesus for sending the Father to die? Do we thank the Holy Spirit for going to the cross? Or do we thank each for what they specifically did in our redemption? Or do we never acknowledge in our thanksgiving any but the Father?

 

[CrowCross]

Yes when I pray in my home my doors are shut. Whatever happened to @CrowCross who bet me $1 million dollars? I am still waiting for him to come out of hiding after losing that bet.

When ever I'm home my doors are shut....I would imagine so are yours....What's your point? Do you have to change the meaning of the verse??? You anti-christ people always seem to do that.