Jesus teaches that regeneration precedes faith

[Josheb]

Flesh isn't born again in regeneration.

Never said it was.

It is the spirit that is born again.

Never said otherwise.

That is because sin does not destroy or kill the flesh; rather it is the spirit that dies when sin is committed.

Got scripture for that?


Consider how that post read to me: Two non sequitur red herrings that had nothing to do with what I posted, and one baseless statement not supported by scripture. So if you are going to complain about logic it is incumbent upon you to set an example and not practice what is reportedly disdained. I trust you know what is called when someone complains against something they themselves do.

For the sake of goodwill and restoring some semblance of cogency to the conversation, the points being made are simple: 1) unregenerate nonbelievers are not identical to regenerate believers, 2) conflating the two is both scripturally and logically flawed, and 3) abusing scripture to make the conditions of the latter applicable to the former is an abuse of scripture. These are not specifically or particularly monergist or synergist points. They are the facts of scripture applicable to all readers regardless of the soteriological orientation.

 

[EarlyActs]

If all this is based on Jn 3, I urge you to review it all in light of what Judaism was like. The upshot of the convo is that the physical lineage is of no value. But within that is a condition for seeing the kingdom that Judaism was awaiting. This is not "salvation." It is like saying 'unless you take this training, you won't understand the new edition of Windows.'

That condition was to be born 'anothen.' 'Anothen' is often 'from the beginning.' That is to be contrasted with what recent Judaism was saying. From the beginning of the Abrahamic narrative, the vision of salvation through the Seed was for all the nations to be blessed. And that Abraham's faith mattered, not his lineage nor circumcision. We know that the apostles frequently showed that the mission to the nations was known from ages past, and that the mistake of Judaism was to think that entry to the people of God was through the Law. Instead, it was through the Gospel. Eph 3:5-6. This was a mystery to Judaism, but now understood by believers.

This is how we see the kingdom. We don't see it by 'external signs.'

So there are several phrases in Jn 3 that are not actually about being saved, because salvation is first justification from sins (v17) and then personal transformation. These two only create confusion if they are mixed.

 

[Josheb]

If all this is based on Jn 3, I urge you to review it all in light of what Judaism was like. The upshot of the convo is that the physical lineage is of no value. But within that is a condition for seeing the kingdom that Judaism was awaiting. This is not "salvation." It is like saying 'unless you take this training, you won't understand the new edition of Windows.'

That condition was to be born 'anothen.' 'Anothen' is often 'from the beginning.' That is to be contrasted with what recent Judaism was saying. From the beginning of the Abrahamic narrative, the vision of salvation through the Seed was for all the nations to be blessed. And that Abraham's faith mattered, not his lineage nor circumcision. We know that the apostles frequently showed that the mission to the nations was known from ages past, and that the mistake of Judaism was to think that entry to the people of God was through the Law. Instead, it was through the Gospel. Eph 3:5-6. This was a mystery to Judaism, but now understood by believers.

This is how we see the kingdom. We don't see it by 'external signs.'

So there are several phrases in Jn 3 that are not actually about being saved, because salvation is first justification from sins (v17) and then personal transformation. These two only create confusion if they are mixed.

?????

John 3:17
For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.


How do you get "justification from sins" and NOT "being saved" from that verse?

I'm curious. Have you read the "New Paul" sources (E.P. Sanders, N.T. Wright, etc.)? I ask because they also assert the gospel is about the kingdom and not specifically salvation from sin.

 

[Carbon]

But is by grace cos grace is the first or initial action, the driving force or power enabling our good works to be effectual and salutary or meritorious! Jn 5:16

That’s what he said so I was just confirming it!

Scripture says we are saved by grace. Does it not? So, what is your issue?

By grace, through faith.

Just keep denying it.

 

[Carbon]

We have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:2).

For this to be true, and for regeneration also to precede faith, one would have to be regenerated by something other than grace.

Because we clearly have access to grace by faith.

Which means that we cannot be recipients of grace apart from faith.

Therefore faith precedes grace, and if regeneration be by grace, faith also precedes regeneration.

Do you feel mixed up?
You should because you have it backward. You are stripping words of their meanings and changing the order.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

The Title of this thread should have been "Jesus teaches that REPENTANCE comes before Belief"

 

[Carbon]

Flesh isn't born again in regeneration. It is the spirit that is born again. That is because sin does not destroy or kill the flesh; rather it is the spirit that dies when sin is committed.

Huh?

The spirit is born again?

 

[Carbon]

The Title of this thread should have been "Jesus teaches that REPENTANCE comes before Belief"

Why?

Surely it does not.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Why?

Surely it does not.

Biblically, it does.

 

[Carbon]

Biblically, it does.

Biblically is what I am saying. Biblically, repentance does not come before belief.

If you disagree, that is up to you to prove.

 

[JIM]

Never said it was.

You implied it with " sinful not-yet-born-again flesh".

Got scripture for that?

Genesis 3:22

1) unregenerate nonbelievers are not identical to regenerate believers,

Never said they were.

 

[JIM]

Huh?

The spirit is born again?

Of course. The spirit is the only thing born again in regeneration. It is only the spirit that is dead in trespasses and sins that needs to be made alive again (born again, regenerated).

 

[Carbon]

Of course. The spirit is the only thing born again in regeneration. It is only the spirit that is dead in trespasses and sins that needs to be made alive again (born again, regenerated).

Scripture does not use your terminology. Nowhere does scripture say the spirit must be born again. Sorry, try again.

 

[JIM]

Scripture does not use your terminology. Nowhere does scripture say the spirit must be born again. Sorry, try again.

Clearly the flesh is not born again. Nicodemus pointed out the ridiculousness of that concept with his rhetorical question concerning a man entering again into his mother's womb to be born. It can only be the spirit that is born again of water and Spirit.

Carbon, that is fundamental to the whole question of regeneration, whether viewed from Calvinism or non-Calvinism. I am profoundly amazed that you seem to be so thoroughly confused by that.

 

[Josheb]

You implied it with " sinful not-yet-born-again flesh".

No, I did not. You may have read it that way but it was not implied. It was intended to be read exactly as scripture asserts it in the many places where the dichotomy between flesh and spirit are asserted, such as Romans 8, for example.

Romans 8:5-8
For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

The English translations do not do the text justice because the Greek does not contain the qualifiers "set on," "according to," or "governed by." The Greek is a more blunt, "mind of flesh," and "mind of spirit."

That particular text was written to the already regenerate believers about already regenerate believers but it's useful in understanding two things relevant to the argument asserted in support of this op: 1) it cannot be applied to unregenerate non-believers as has been the common practice throughout this thread because unregenerate nonbelievers do not and cannot have a mind of spirit, and 2) because the unregenerate does not and cannot have a mind of spirit the text precludes the synergist argument an unregenerate nonbeliever's mind of flesh is soteriological veracious and efficacious.

That is how my remark should have been read.

That is because sin does not destroy or kill the flesh; rather it is the spirit that dies when sin is committed.

Got scripture for that?

Genesis 3:22

Let's see.

Genesis 3:22
Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out with his hand, and take fruit also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.”

Nothing in that verse about the spirit dying or being killed. Wanna try another verse or concede the point: Neither flesh nor spirit are killed by sin and you've been misreading my posts because of your own biases?

Never said they were.

Then the proper response is to tell the other guy: Pay attention to what Josh posted because it is correct.

 

[Carbon]

Clearly the flesh is not born again. Nicodemus pointed out the ridiculousness of that concept with his rhetorical question concerning a man entering again into his mother's womb to be born. It can only be the spirit that is born again of water and Spirit.

Carbon, that is fundamental to the whole question of regeneration, whether viewed from Calvinism or non-Calvinism. I am profoundly amazed that you seem to be so thoroughly confused by that.

Why are you amazed, Jim?

Are we born of the spirit or is the spirit born again? What does scripture say?

 

[JIM]

Why are you amazed, Jim?

Are we born of the spirit or is the spirit born again? What does scripture say?

Oh my, you are indeed confused. The spirit is born and reborn of the Spirit; in that, the spirit is born again, i.e., regenerated. The spirit is born of the Spirit first at birth (or conception if you prefer) when God forms it in us. It becomes dead in trespasses and sins and thus needs to be born again, i.e., reborn or regenerated.

 

[JIM]

Let's see.

Genesis 3:22
Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out with his hand, and take fruit also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.”

Nothing in that verse about the spirit dying or being killed. Wanna try another verse or concede the point: Neither flesh nor spirit are killed by sin and you've been misreading my posts because of your own biases?

The spirit is indeed killed by sin (Eph 2:1); the spirit is then made alive again in regeneration (John 3:1-8; John 5:24-25; Eph 2:5-6 and elsewhere). The spirits of Adam and Eve died in day that they ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Gen 2:17).

 

[Josheb]

Oh my, you are indeed confused. The spirit is born and reborn of the Spirit; in that, the spirit is born again, i.e., regenerated. The spirit is born of the Spirit first at birth (or conception if you prefer) when God forms it in us. It becomes dead in trespasses and sins and thus needs to be born again, i.e., reborn or regenerated.

That post reads much better without the first six unnecessary words.

I keep reading comments about the spirit being dead. Have you got something actually from scripture actually, specifically, explicitly stating a person spirit is dead, killed by sin? I just did a search of "dead" and "spirit" in the entire Bible and of the eight verses containing both words not a single one of them states the spirit is dead in any sinner. In the absence of any such scripture let me suggest you stop belaboring a premise that has no basis in scripture.

Alternatively, Carbon's question is answered in scripture very plainly and he's not confused, he's endeavoring to help you see what is plainly stated and discard what is not.

Are we born of the spirit or is the spirit born again? What does scripture say?

.
John 3:5-8
Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

So the answer to the question askes is "born of the spirit." As I believe was point out earlier by someone the Greek, "gennethe anothen" is more accurately translated "born from above," not the more simplistic "born again."


No confusion needed, wanted, or existent.

 

[JIM]

Yes Carbon it is indeed sad that you are so terribly, terribly confused by something so integral to the very meaning and nature of salvation to eternal life with Christ.

At least you are not alone; Josheb is as thoroughly confused about the whole issue as you.