Jesus teaches that regeneration precedes faith

[donadams]

But is by grace cos grace is the first or initial action, the driving force or power enabling our good works to be effectual and salutary or meritorious! Jn 5:16

 

[Carbon]

Ask and you shall receive

Blessed are the merciful they shall receive mercy

Obedience unto righteousness

My grace is sufficient for you, must suffer

Phil 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matt 24:13 endures “in Christ” to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Prayer, alms, fasting, suffering, sacrifice, sacraments, practice of virtue etc. yes works
Faith working thru love

Thanks

There you have it. And on that (faith +works) is where your church took themselves out of Christianity.

 

[donadams]

There you have it. And on that (faith +works) is where your church took themselves out of Christianity.

Then you believe it’s grace alone?

 

[Carbon]

Then you believe it’s grace alone?

Faith alone?

 

[donadams]

Faith alone?

Really wow! “Faith alone”?

Not Christ?
Not grace?
Not the spirit?
Not baptism?

 

[donadams]

Really wow! “Faith alone”?

Not Christ?
Not grace?
Not the spirit?
Not baptism?

That’s what he said so I was just confirming it!

 

[fastfredy0]

Definition of Sola fide (by faith alone). Faith alone, not our works or faith combined with works, is the instrument by which the sinner is justified from the guilt of all sin and counted righteous by God (Galatians 2:16a). No amount of sincere intention, love, good deeds, or acts of devotion can atone for our sins and make us righteous before God. “Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness” (Romans 4:4–5).

 

[justbyfaith]

We have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:2).

For this to be true, and for regeneration also to precede faith, one would have to be regenerated by something other than grace.

Because we clearly have access to grace by faith.

Which means that we cannot be recipients of grace apart from faith.

Therefore faith precedes grace, and if regeneration be by grace, faith also precedes regeneration.

 

[brightfame52]

We have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:2).

For this to be true, and for regeneration also to precede faith, one would have to be regenerated by something other than grace.

Because we clearly have access to grace by faith.

Which means that we cannot be recipients of grace apart from faith.

Therefore faith precedes grace, and if regeneration be by grace, faith also precedes regeneration.

Wrong conclusion, Faith is by Grace, the Grace of the New Birth Rom 4:16


Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

 

[Josheb]

We have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:2).

Who is the "we" in your post?

Who is the "we" in Romans 5:2?

Do you think sinful not-yet-born-again flesh accomplishes anything God considers valuable? Or, perhaps more broadly, what specifically do you think sinful not-yet-born-again flesh accomplishes that God finds of value?

 

[justbyfaith]

Wrong conclusion, Faith is by Grace, the Grace of the New Birth Rom 4:16


Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

We become recipients of grace as the result of faith (Romans 5:2). The scripture that you have quoted does not teach that grace precedes faith. Ye do err and have misinterpreted what is written.

 

[justbyfaith]

Who is the "we" in your post?

Who is the "we" in Romans 5:2?

Do you think sinful not-yet-born-again flesh accomplishes anything God considers valuable? Or, perhaps more broadly, what specifically do you think sinful not-yet-born-again flesh accomplishes that God finds of value?

Before we are born again there is a door in front of us b which, if we enter in, we might have access to grace.

There is nothing of value in the flesh.

Our decision to receive Christ has nothing to do with personal merit; as a matter of fact it is most often the result of a sinful fear when we are faced with the reality of hell. Self-preservation may in fact be a sinful motivation. But God honours it when we believe in Jesus because of that instinct.

Therefore our faith and decision to receive Christ is not anything of value that produces merit when it comes to the salvation of our souls. God has simply ordained that we come into the grace of God through such a venue.

 

[Josheb]

Before we are born again there is a door in front of us b which, if we enter in, we might have access to grace.

There is nothing of value in the flesh.

Our decision to receive Christ has nothing to do with personal merit; as a matter of fact it is most often the result of a sinful fear when we are faced with the reality of hell. Self-preservation may in fact be a sinful motivation. But God honours it when we believe in Jesus because of that instinct.

Therefore our faith and decision to receive Christ is not anything of value that produces merit when it comes to the salvation of our souls. God has simply ordained that we come into the grace of God through such a venue.

That's nice but none of it answers my questions, so let me ask them again.

• Who is the "we" in Post 71?
• Who is the "we" of Romans 5:2?
• Do you think sinful not-yet-born-again flesh accomplishes anything God considers valuable? Or, perhaps more broadly, what specifically do you think sinful not-yet-born-again flesh accomplishes that God finds of value?

The first two questions are designed to get at properly identifying the relevant group being referenced because the unregenerate nonbeliever is is a completely different group than the regenerate believer and the two should never be conflated. The last two questions are intended for me to garner a better understanding of your belief(s) about the capability of still-sinful unregenerate flesh. Pease answer the questions asked. Each of the first three can be answered with a single word. no lengthy exposition is needed. While the fourth question might be answered with some modicum of length it is hoped the answer will be succinct so the points can be made and the discussion then furthered.

• Who is the "we" in Post 71?
• Who is the "we" of Romans 5:2?
• Do you think sinful not-yet-born-again flesh accomplishes anything God considers valuable? Or, perhaps more broadly, what specifically do you think sinful not-yet-born-again flesh accomplishes that God finds of value?

Awaiting patiently .

 

[justbyfaith]

• Who is the "we" in Post 71?

us (believers in Christ)

• Who is the "we" of Romans 5:2?

those who have access to grace.

In this, there are those who have not yet accessed grace who are able to access it by faith.

• Do you think sinful not-yet-born-again flesh accomplishes anything God considers valuable? Or, perhaps more broadly, what specifically do you think sinful not-yet-born-again flesh accomplishes that God finds of value?

Again, there is no personal merit in my decision to receive Christ; and there is nothing in the flesh that God considers valuable. However, He has ordained a certain way by which we might gain access into grace (by faith).

We can come to faith as the result of making a decision to believe in and follow Christ at whatever juncture the Holy Spirit sees fit to draw us to Christ. In being drawn, we are enabled to make a decision to believe in and follow Christ.

Being drawn to Christ and being given to Christ are not the same thing. We may be drawn to Christ but not be given to Christ. In order to be given, we must make the decision to receive Jesus as Lord and Saviour. Being drawn enables us to make that decision unhindered by the demonic and/or the flesh. And being drawn does not guarantee that a person will be given to Christ.

I hope that you can re-interpret your understanding of John 6 based on this information.

 

[Josheb]

us (believers in Christ)

Yes, and not just believers in Christ but regenerate believers in Christ.

Therefore, that pronoun cannot be use to say anything about the unregenerate.

those who have access to grace.

Yes, and not just any who have access to grace but already redeemed and regenerate believers who have access to God's grace.

Therefore, that verse cannot be used to say anything about the unregenerate.

In this, there are those who have not yet accessed grace who are able to access it by faith.

No there is not. That is an assumption on your part and the assumption directly conflicts with the fact the audience to whom Paul is writing were those who are loved by God and called to be saints. The "us" in Romans 5:2 is not unregenerate nonbelievers. accessing God's grace through fleshly faith.

You might be able to make that case with some other verse, but Romans 5:2 is not it.

there is nothing in the flesh that God considers valuable.

Then it is of no value for accessing salvific grace, either. It cannot be had both ways. Either the flesh merits something or it merits nothing.

However, He has ordained a certain way by which we might gain access into grace (by faith).

Who is the "we" in that sentence?


Can you see the problem? It's called the fallacy of ambiguity. that fallacy occurs anytime someone uses the same word with two or more meanings. When Paul writes about "us" or "we" he is most often writing about those he has identified as saints, those already believing in Jesus and filled with the Holy Spirit. That's not always the case, but usually. It becomes necessary for the Christian to correctly identify who it is Jesus/Paul/Peter/James is speaking/writing about.

God has ordained a certain way by which you and I may gain access to His grace and it is through the faith He has gifted us, a faith that is not of our own, lest we boast it was OUR faith that saved us - our fleshly, not-yet-regenerated flesh. There is nothing in the flesh that God considers valuable.

We can come to faith as the result of making a decision to believe in and follow Christ at whatever juncture the Holy Spirit sees fit to draw us to Christ. In being drawn, we are enabled to make a decision to believe in and follow Christ.

Being drawn to Christ and being given to Christ are not the same thing. We may be drawn to Christ but not be given to Christ. In order to be given, we must make the decision to receive Jesus as Lord and Saviour. Being drawn enables us to make that decision unhindered by the demonic and/or the flesh. And being drawn does not guarantee that a person will be given to Christ.

Not what I asked.

I hope that you can re-interpret your understanding of John 6 based on this information.

Well..... so far the evidence shows the entire case I've received is built on a fallacy of ambiguity that uses "we" and "us" with different meanings and a contradiction that simultaneously holds unregenerate flesh can believe and thereby access grace while also holding the flesh is of no value to God.

I hope that you can clean up those errors and understand John 6 accordingly.

 

[justbyfaith]

There is certainly a door by which we can enter into grace; and the key to that door is faith.

By "we" here I mean anyone who enters by the door.

If someone has not entered by the door yet, it does not mean that they cannot enter in through the door.

Or, are you contending otherwise?

Are you saying that unregenerated people cannot enter through the door?

Faith precedes grace. Faith is the key by which we can open the door, and grace is living in the mansion.

If I am in the mansion, then I have at some point gained access by faith into this grace wherein I stand.

If I am not living in the mansion, then the key is faith. By faith I can open up the door and enter into the mansion.

 

[justbyfaith]

Well..... so far the evidence shows the entire case I've received is built on a fallacy of ambiguity that uses "we" and "us" with different meanings and a contradiction that simultaneously holds unregenerate flesh can believe and thereby access grace while also holding the flesh is of no value to God.

I hope that you can clean up those errors and understand John 6 accordingly.

The Holy Spirit, in effect, in drawing a person to Christ, wakes them up out of sleep. They then have the option of waking up completely, or going back into the sleep of spiritual death.

Some who wake up by an alarm hit the snooze button and go back to sleep. Others wake up and go about their day.

Those who wake up completely are given to Christ.

The alarm buzzing is like the drawing to Christ...one can receive or reject the purpose of that alarm.

What about you?

Have you received Jesus personally as your Lord and Saviour?

Or, are you trusting in the idea that you were at one time drawn to Christ and therefore you cannot be anything but given to Christ?

Being drawn does not guarantee being given. To be given, you must receive Christ (John 1:12). Try to consider the meaning of that verse on its own as a bastion of spiritual truth. Don't try to nullify it by its context. Realize that a first rule of hermeneutics is that the context never nullifes the plain meaning of a verse because the Bible doesn't contradict itself.

 

[brightfame52]

We become recipients of grace as the result of faith (Romans 5:2). The scripture that you have quoted does not teach that grace precedes faith. Ye do err and have misinterpreted what is written.

Wrong one becomes a recipient of Faith by Grace.

 

[brightfame52]

@justbyfaith

The Holy Spirit, in effect, in drawing a person to Christ, wakes them up out of sleep. They then have the option of waking up completely, or going back into the sleep of spiritual death.

When the Holy Spirit quickens one with new life, they are saved, thats regeneration Titus 3:5

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Drawing is the New Birth, being made a new creature, then they go to Christ out of a new heart

 

[JIM]

Who is the "we" in your post?

Who is the "we" in Romans 5:2?

Do you think sinful not-yet-born-again flesh accomplishes anything God considers valuable? Or, perhaps more broadly, what specifically do you think sinful not-yet-born-again flesh accomplishes that God finds of value?

Flesh isn't born again in regeneration. It is the spirit that is born again. That is because sin does not destroy or kill the flesh; rather it is the spirit that dies when sin is committed.