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Jesus teaches that regeneration precedes faith

No problem - "self Preservation" is a major "Fleshly nature" issue!!! When the Holy Spirit Convicts of SIN and of JUDGEMENT (John 16:8) - then you KNOW, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that Turning from your SIN, and surrendering to God is an IMPORTANT move.
Correct: That should read "SINFUL self-preservation is a major SINFULLY fleshly issue!" The Spirit is not self-seeking. Sin is self-seeking and does not turn from itself.
"Conviction of SIN" is God's WORD to YOU (Rom 10:17), and is the foundation of FAITH (trusting His WORD).
That verse says nothing about "conviction of sin."

Romans 10:17
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Aside from the fact that verse was written about the saints and the saints' experience of faith and hearing (not the unregenerate non-believer), if we were to look at what the scriptures say about "conviction of sin," we find scripture asserts the Spirit as the causal agent and not the sinful flesh.

John 16:5-11
"But now I am going to Him who sent me; and none of you asks me, 'Where are You going?' But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged."

It is the Spirit who convicts the sinner, the fleshly sinner, the sinfully fleshly sinner, of sin, not the sinfully fleshly sinner's flesh. Whatever is not of fatih is sin (Rom. 14:23), which means the hearing that supposedly leads to faith is sin! It cannot be a faith-hearing because faith supposedly comes from the hearing. It's one of the many question-begging circular arguments of synergism - one that ignores the fact scripture repeatedly states conviction, hearing, knowledge, understanding, and much, much more all come from the Spirit. The flesh profits nothing. To the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure. Indeed, both their minds and their consciences are defiled (Tit. 1:15).

So @David1701's inquiry stands unanswered,
Please show us, from the Bible, which aspect of a sinner's unregenerate, fleshly nature is willing to turn from sin to God and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, thanks.
Have you got something more veracious than the premise of a self-benevolent sinful flesh that profits nothing and appeal to Romans 10:17's fleshly hearing?
 
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It would probably be more profitable for me to give my own view, rather than just picking at yours. 😅 Cards on the table...
Probably. ;)
I think that the condition that God uses for salvation is this - Is the person a part of Israel? Biblically, salvation is "of the Jews" and "all Israel shall be saved."
But salvation is not ONLY of the Jews.

Be careful about committing (or not committing) the mistake of "onlyism," the inserting of the word "only" where it isn't stated. Salvation is "of" many things, not ONLY Israel. In point of fact the salvation that comes through Israel whereby all Israel will be saved (excepting that Israel that is not Israel), came first through the patriarchs loonnngggg before Israel ever existed.

Be careful also not to commit the error of proof-texting. Romans 11:26 does not define all of salvation. In fact, Paul was writing to readers to whom salvation had already come, most of whom were not Jewish Israel. Paul is writing about the portion of Abraham's descendants, the Israelites from which God had reserved a "remnant". In other words, while saying, "all Israel will be saved," Paul ALSO said, "not all Israel is Israel" AND only a remnant had been set aside. More importantly, Paul was writing about conditions that specifically existed at that time, the "present time, the time present to when he wrote that epistle.... NOT the future 2000 years later.

Romans 11:5
In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.

Verse 26 cannot be read to contradict verse 5. It certainly cannot be read to contradict verse 17, either. There's no salvation for the branches broken off. They get tossed into the fire (Mt. 7:19).
As it touches pre-destination, I would say that God has sovereignly pre-destined all Israel to be saved. Every descendant of the chosen people is included under their ancestor, Abraham.
That would be correct if that one portion of that one verse defined all of salvation, but it does not.

So far the matter of regeneration preceding faith has not been addressed. Neither has the monergistic origins of the covenant in which all that Romans 9-11 is rooted. NOTHING in those three chapters, especially not Rom. 11:26, can be read to conflict with what I posted about the monergistic nature of the covenants.
However, there is some wiggle-room in my view for free-will.
Only after a covenant is initiated and its participants selected, chosen, and called, commanded. Not a single example of any "wiggle room" in any of the precedent covenants. Look it up. Every example you'll find in the OT is one that occurs only after God has done what I previously lifted. ALL examples of choice come post-covenant establishment and sometimes long afterwards (circumcision followed the initiation of the Abrahamic covenant by more than ten years!).
Membership in the pre-destined group - Israel - is somewhat fluid.
You've got to prove some of these "cards," and do so better than with just Romans 11:26. Membership is pre-determined and only the pre-determined members have any predestination.
That is, the natural branches can be broken off of that tree, and wild branches can be grafted in.
What choice did they have?
It isn't altogether clear to me....
Unh huh.

Card on the table? (y)
 
Correct: That should read "SINFUL self-preservation is a major SINFULLY fleshly issue!" The Spirit is not self-seeking. Sin is self-seeking and does not turn from itself.
It reads properly as it was written.
That verse says nothing about "conviction of sin."
I never said it did, I gave the verse that does previously.
if we were to look at what the scriptures say about "conviction of sin," we find scripture asserts the Spirit as the causal agent and not the sinful flesh.
Yup - that's what I said.
It is the Spirit who convicts the sinner,
Yup, that's what I said.
So David's inquiry stands unanswered,
Actually it's answered PERFECTLY. The Holy Spirit Convicts us of Sin, and of the consequences thereof, and WE respond in FAITH Crying out to God for salvation. Problem solved.

How/Why did YOU get saved???
 
It reads properly as it was written.
Except what is written is not what you posted.
I never said it did, I gave the verse that does previously.
No, the verse given did not answer the question asked.
Yup - that's what I said.

Yup, that's what I said.
That's not what was posted. You appealed to self-preservation when the flesh profits nothing.
Actually it's answered PERFECTLY.
It is not.
The Holy Spirit Convicts us of Sin, and of the consequences thereof, and WE respond in FAITH Crying out to God for salvation.
Except all those people who will be convicted of their sin and then tossed into the fiery lake. The Holy Spirit convicts thw rold of sin, but not all the world is saved 😯. The cited verse does NOT state the Holy Spirit convicts of sin and the still-sinful unregenerate flesh sinfully self-preserves its still-sinful flesh. Neither does the cited verse say the Holy Spirit convicts of sin and then that person is saved from the sin for which they were just convicted.

The Holy Spirit does not convict just us of sin! The Holy Spirit does not convict just us of sin. The Holy Spirit convicts everyone of sin but not everyone is saved. Assuming a causal link between the sinful flesh and the salvation of that sinful flesh is incorrect and John 16:8 does NOT prove what was posted correct. Posts 17 and 21 make a mess out of John 16:8...


...and @David1701's question remains unanswered.

Please show us, from the Bible, which aspect of a sinner's unregenerate, fleshly nature is willing to turn from sin to God and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, thanks.

He did ask nicely ;).

Sinful "self-preservation" is not correct. The only self the sinful self wants to preserve is the sinful self. A new self might do otherwise, but not the still-unregenerate solely sinful fleshly self. The sinful passions of the flesh work in the parts of our body to bear fruit for death (Rom. 7:5). The sinfully dead and enslaved flesh cannot present itself as an instrument of righteousness (Rom. 6:13). The regenerate can; the unregenerate cannot. The flesh cannot please God (Rom. 8:8), its mind does not and cannot do so (Rom. 8:6).

The flesh profits nothing.
Problem solved.
Except it is not solved; it's made worse because the question asked wasn't answered. Instead, a single verse was proof-texted and then a pile of extra-biblical doctrinal biases was added onto it, not a single element of which is supported by scripture.
How/Why did YOU get saved???
How about staying on topic and addressing the very valid and op-relevant point brought to you for discussion?


I got saved because by His grace God saw fit to save me when I was dead and enslaved in sin and I was given new life from above along by a renewing Spirit by which I was washed clean from all past sin, came to understand and believe everything else that ensued, and was sealed in Christ.




Now, could you please show us, from the Bible, which aspect of a sinner's unregenerate, fleshly nature is willing to turn from sin to God and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, thanks.
 
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Now, could you please show us, from the Bible, which aspect of a sinner's unregenerate, fleshly nature is willing to turn from sin to God and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, thanks.
Already did, but it didn't fit you personal / Denominational Theology. Oh Well.
 
Already did, but it didn't fit you personal / Denominational Theology. Oh Well.
Please keep the posts about the posts and not the posters.

None of your last three posts show where the Bible states an aspect of the sinner's unregenerate flesh is willing to turn from sin to God and trust in Lord Jesus. It simply did not happen. John 16 does not even mention the sinner's unregenerate flesh! That's a self-evident objective fact of the entire chapter, NOT personal/denominational theology.

This is a very simple matter. If no passage from the Bible can be provided to show us where the Bible states an aspect of the sinful unregenerate flesh is willing to turn to God and trust Jesus then just say so. If there is such a text then post it. No other commentary on your part was requested, nor is any needed.



Could you please show us, from the Bible, which aspect of a sinner's unregenerate, fleshly nature is willing to turn from sin to God and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ?

Nothing more was asked, and the verse cited doesn't mention the flesh.
 
But the FEAR of God does the job nicely. When God lets you know UP FRONT AND PERSONAL, what your true status before Him is, it gets your attention, don'cha know!!!
Rom. 3 says that there is no fear of God (i.e. reverential fear) in the unsaved person.

Now, of those things that the Bible does say are in the unregenerate person, which could lead to repentance and faith in Jesus Christ?

Calling upon God IN FAITH that He gave (His WORD TO ME) (Eph 2:8,9). What "saved you" (assuming that you've been Born Again of the Holy Spirit)??

You MUST be born again, in order to "see" and enter the kingdom of God (which we know to be through faith in Jesus Christ) as Jesus told Nicodemus, in John 3. God saved me by getting his word to me, making me born again and giving me repentance faith in Jesus Christ.
 
But salvation is not ONLY of the Jews.

Be careful about committing (or not committing) the mistake of "onlyism," the inserting of the word "only" where it isn't stated. Salvation is "of" many things, not ONLY Israel. In point of fact the salvation that comes through Israel whereby all Israel will be saved (excepting that Israel that is not Israel), came first through the patriarchs loonnngggg before Israel ever existed.
I agree that Jews and Israel are not synonyms. Israel refers to all those descendants of the patriarchs, only some of which are Jewish.

I think we can say that salvation is not FROM the Gentiles with some certainty, but this point is not so important.

As to whether salvation is FOR the Gentiles, any conversation about it is bound to be nebulous and confusing. Certainly, some people who started out as Gentiles will be saved. As I see it, though, those people cease to be Gentiles and are adopted into Israel as part of their salvation. Any conversation about "saved Gentiles" is really a conversation about those who were "formerly Gentiles."

Be careful also not to commit the error of proof-texting. Romans 11:26 does not define all of salvation.
I'm quite sure I'm not proof-texting. :) The idea that salvation is FOR Abraham (and his descendants) is found all throughout the Old Testament. You will find a few hints here and there about salvation for Gentiles, but for the most part the dialogue is all about Israel being saved in the Day of the Lord.

In fact, Paul was writing to readers to whom salvation had already come, most of whom were not Jewish Israel. Paul is writing about the portion of Abraham's descendants, the Israelites from which God had reserved a "remnant". In other words, while saying, "all Israel will be saved," Paul ALSO said, "not all Israel is Israel" AND only a remnant had been set aside. More importantly, Paul was writing about conditions that specifically existed at that time, the "present time, the time present to when he wrote that epistle.... NOT the future 2000 years later.

Romans 11:5
In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.

Verse 26 cannot be read to contradict verse 5. It certainly cannot be read to contradict verse 17, either. There's no salvation for the branches broken off. They get tossed into the fire (Mt. 7:19).

That would be correct if that one portion of that one verse defined all of salvation, but it does not.
Here in this chapter, Paul refers to Israel after-the-flesh, and also Israel after-the-spirit... and they aren't the same group. If you read the two as being the same, you arrive at the contradiction you have pointed out.

But just as any conversation about "saved Gentiles" is really a conversation about those who were "formerly Gentiles," so also any conversation of "lost Israelites" is really a conversation of those who have been cast out of Israel. Hence verse 15:

For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

So far the matter of regeneration preceding faith has not been addressed.
Ok, let's talk about re-generation. Indulge me to re-cap a little history.

When Solomon died, Israel split in two. The southern half became the Jews - the House of Judah. When they mis-behaved, God sent them into captivity for a time.

Prior to that, when the northern half - the House of Israel - went into apostasy, God brought the Assyrian army against them and destroyed them. Killed them. Scant remants of the northern kingdom were absorbed into the neighboring nations and lost any cultural identity they had. They ceased existing as a separate entity.

In Ezekiel 37, they are called "dry bones" (v.11) and it is foretold that these dry bones would be made to live again (v.5-10). This prophecy
is repeated in the beginning of the book of Hosea and in Isaiah chapters 7 - 11. It turns out this is important for the idea of regeneration.

The Biblical idea of regeneration is this - Israel was dead, but God has made Israel to live again. Furthermore, this resurrection is accomplished by adoption. Israel is re-constituted when individuals from among the nations (Goyim) hear God, believe, and are adopted. In the New Testament, the term dead (nekros) is used to describe everyone outside the faith. To be resurrected then, is to be added to Israel by coming to faith.

I say all this to say - regeneration does not precede faith; neither does it lag behind it. Regeneration occurs at the very moment of faith. When John Newton wrote "the hour I first believed" he got it right.

Neither has the monergistic origins of the covenant in which all that Romans 9-11 is rooted. NOTHING in those three chapters, especially not Rom. 11:26, can be read to conflict with what I posted about the monergistic nature of the covenants.
Mon-er-gist-ic. I had to look it up. That's an awfully big word to describe something that is pretty ordinary. Let's go back to the verse from the original post:

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Spirit means breath. How are words communicated? Through the breath. What is being said in this verse (and elsewhere throughout Scripture) is that God's Word is delivered via God's Breath. Faith comes by hearing, and there is no hearing without preaching, and no preaching without breath. Mon-er-gist-ic. Not that complicated.

Only after a covenant is initiated and its participants selected, chosen, and called, commanded. Not a single example of any "wiggle room" in any of the precedent covenants. Look it up. Every example you'll find in the OT is one that occurs only after God has done what I previously lifted. ALL examples of choice come post-covenant establishment and sometimes long afterwards (circumcision followed the initiation of the Abrahamic covenant by more than ten years!).
On the contrary, every covenant has terms, and if those terms are violated the covenant can be annulled, or punishment can be enforced upon the offending party. Jeremiah 3 tells us that God divorced the House of Israel for the cause of adultery. Every last person in Israel was thrown out of Israel if not killed outright! There is significant wiggle room to remove people from covenants.

Likewise, a covenant can be willed and inherited (when this happens we usually call it a testament). Isaac inherited the covenant from Abraham, with all its promises. Happily, when someone is adopted as a child of Abraham, they become eligible to invoke Abraham's covenant, like Isaac, so long as they are willing to abide by its terms. There is also significant wiggle room to add people to a covenant.

You've got to prove some of these "cards," and do so better than with just Romans 11:26. Membership is pre-determined and only the pre-determined members have any predestination.
Done.

-Jarrod
 
Rom. 3 says that there is no fear of God (i.e. reverential fear) in the unsaved person.
Chuckle!! There Is when God by the Holy Spirit shows 'em their future fate when He Convicts them of their SIN!!! Big time!!! God often USES FEAR to draw a person to Christ, and motivate them to respond when that's appropriate for the individual..
You MUST be born again, in order to "see" and enter the kingdom of God
Yup - that's a Biblical truth (although "and enter" is your personal addition to the text, but practically accurate in effect).
 
Chuckle!! There Is when God by the Holy Spirit shows 'em their future fate when He Convicts them of their SIN!!! Big time!!! God often USES FEAR to draw a person to Christ, and motivate them to respond when that's appropriate for the individual..
The unregenerate do not have godly fear, as I've pointed out. They can have ungodly fear, but that does not lead to faith.

Yup - that's a Biblical truth (although "and enter" is your personal addition to the text, but practically accurate in effect).
I did not add "and enter", since the text states it!

John 3:3-7 (KJV)
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he can not see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he can not enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
 
On the contrary, every covenant has terms...
Which is what I said.... BUT none of those choices were provided until long after the covenant was established. The existence of terms is not in dispute and if that is what was understood then go back and re-read the posts because that is a mistaken understanding of what is posted.

  • God initiates the covenant.
  • God chooses the covenant's participant(s), and He does so without their knowledge or consent.
  • God calls the covenant participant without asking them if they want to be called or participate.
  • God commands the one with whom He has already initiated His covenant and commands that participant with an expectation of obedience.
  • Any and all choices (terms) ensue only after the covenant has been monergistically initiated and established, and often times a decade or more afterwards.

That big lengthy post did not address any of that.
, and if those terms are violated the covenant can be annulled...
Which is exactly what happened.
Likewise, a covenant can be willed and inherited...
Which occurs without the consent of the inheritor.


That big, long post simply proved my points: the covenants are initiated monergistically. Any and all choices that might occur happen only long after the covenant is established and the response I received argued against that while proving it correct. All that is necessary to prove what I posted incorrect is to cite one single covenant any sinfully dead and enslaved sinner initiative with God from his sinful flesh. Just one. Any covenant.
 
Which is what I said.... BUT none of those choices were provided until long after the covenant was established. The existence of terms is not in dispute and if that is what was understood then go back and re-read the posts because that is a mistaken understanding of what is posted.

  • God initiates the covenant.
  • God chooses the covenant's participant(s), and He does so without their knowledge or consent.
  • God calls the covenant participant without asking them if they want to be called or participate.
  • God commands the one with whom He has already initiated His covenant and commands that participant with an expectation of obedience.
  • Any and all choices (terms) ensue only after the covenant has been monergistically initiated and established, and often times a decade or more afterwards.

That big lengthy post did not address any of that.
The thing is - my purpose is not to prove you wrong. Nor I am trying to proving free-will against election (or vice versa). As I see it, there seem to be verses supporting both positions. I am interested in reconciling those verses, and I think I have. Biblical election and free-will are not mutually exclusive.

I absolutely believe that God unilaterally chose Abraham, and that this covenant is the vehicle of salvation. I also believe that people can be added-to or removed-from that covenant, and that the adoption/removal is contingent on belief.

Which occurs without the consent of the inheritor.
Ishmael and Esau stand as witness that a son will not necessarily inherit, should they despise the covenant or stand in disbelief.

All that is necessary to prove what I posted incorrect...
But that isn't my purpose here. I'm just looking for some interesting conversations with some brothers who are savvy enough at theology to challenge my beliefs and perhaps open my eyes to different viewpoints.

-Jarrod
 
The unregenerate do not have godly fear, as I've pointed out. They can have ungodly fear, but that does not lead to faith.
Don't be silly!!! FEAR caused by God's WORD to you about your true condition before Him (Conviction of SIN), and impending judgement, is as "Godly" a fear, as there is. And God's WORD to you is the foundation of Biblical FAITH. Sounds like you're taking the Calvinist "Total depravity" theology WAY too seriously.
 
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The thing is - my purpose is not to prove you wrong. Nor I am trying to proving free-will against election (or vice versa). As I see it, there seem to be verses supporting both positions. ...
None of which has anything to do with whether or not Jesus taught regeneration precedes faith.
I am interested in reconciling those verses, and I think I have. Biblical election and free-will are not mutually exclusive.
Post it in a separate thread and I'll consider discussing the matter with you. I'm confident others will do likewise.
I absolutely believe that God unilaterally chose Abraham, and that this covenant is the vehicle of salvation.
Do you understand how that is directly relevant to the op?
I also believe that people can be added-to or removed-from that covenant, and that the adoption/removal is contingent on belief.
Do you understand how that is not directly related to this op?
Ishmael and Esau stand as witness that a son will not necessarily inherit, should they despise the covenant or stand in disbelief.
No, they were excluded from that prospect before either of them was born. Everything in their respective lives simply corresponded with what had already been decided. In the case of Esau, Romans 9 makes that explicitly clear. Is the direct relevance to the subject of this op understood?
But that isn't my purpose here. I'm just looking for some interesting conversations with some brothers who are savvy enough at theology to challenge my beliefs and perhaps open my eyes to different viewpoints.

-Jarrod
Great. Don't hijack others' ops to do that. Start your own threads and specify individual pints of inquiry or comment for discussion. Many here are capable of meeting your interest.
 
Do you understand how that is directly relevant to the op?
Yes, that's why I originally said it.
Do you understand how that is not directly related to this op?
I think it is related. How can I have a conversation about regeneration without defining regeneration? And as I said earlier, the moment of belief is the moment of re-generation. So the contingency of salvation on belief directly relates to the timing of regeneration and salvation.

No, they were excluded from that prospect before either of them was born. Everything in their respective lives simply corresponded with what had already been decided. In the case of Esau, Romans 9 makes that explicitly clear. Is the direct relevance to the subject of this op understood?
Foreknowledge is not causation.

Great. Don't hijack others' ops to do that. Start your own threads and specify individual pints of inquiry or comment for discussion. Many here are capable of meeting your interest.
As nearly as I can tell I'm on topic, but if I'm annoying to you or the fellow who started the topic, I can bail. 🤷‍♂️

Adios, then. /unwatched
 
Actually it's answered PERFECTLY. The Holy Spirit Convicts us of Sin, and of the consequences thereof, and WE respond in FAITH Crying out to God for salvation. Problem solved.
Only the redeemed have the Holy Spirit though.
 
Don't be silly!!! FEAR caused by God's WORD to you about your true condition before Him (Conviction of SIN), and impending judgement, is as "Godly" a fear, as there is. And God's WORD to you is the foundation of Biblical FAITH. Sounds like you're taking the Calvinist "Total depravity" theology WAY too seriously.
Godly fear is reverential fear.

Ungodly fear is terror, and it leads to death, not life.
 
Only the redeemed have the Holy Spirit though.
OF course!! Its called "being Born Again". However the Holy spirit, as Jesus said has always been KNOWN, since He's been "With us", but was only "IN US" beginning in John 20:22.

Acts 2:4, according to Jesus is an "Enduement" - a "Clothing with power", and not an indwelling.

In the Old Testament many people were "endued with power" by the Holy Spirit, even though they were NOT INDWELLED by Him, since that wasn't possible, yet.
 
OF course!! Its called "being Born Again". However the Holy spirit, as Jesus said has always been KNOWN, since He's been "With us", but was only "IN US" beginning in John 20:22.

Acts 2:4, according to Jesus is an "Enduement" - a "Clothing with power", and not an indwelling.

In the Old Testament many people were "endued with power" by the Holy Spirit, even though they were NOT INDWELLED by Him, since that wasn't possible, yet.
Well it is being reborn that causes our reborn heart to repent. Not our repentance that causes the Holy Spirit to regenerate us.
 
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