Jesus teaches that regeneration precedes faith

[David1701]

Word Games.

Unbelief.

 

[Carbon]

Well it is being reborn that causes our reborn heart to repent. Not our repentance that causes the Holy Spirit to regenerate us.

Amen

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Well it is being reborn that causes our reborn heart to repent. Not our repentance that causes the Holy Spirit to regenerate us.

Word salad.

The conviction of SIN by the Holy Spirit is the source of our FAITH (God's WORD TO US), and truly KNOWING your state before God leads directly to surrender, and repentance (unless you run away back into spiritual death like I did every time - until the last time).

If your RESPONSE to "Conviction of SIN" by the Holy Spirit is Surrender, Repentance, and crying out to God in FAITH for salvation, THEN "Born Again"/"Regeneration"/"Salvation" and "infilling of the Holy Spirit" happens - and everything changes.

 

[Arial]

Word salad.

Explain how it is word salad otherwise it has no meaning.

The conviction of SIN by the Holy Spirit is the source of our FAITH (God's WORD TO US), and truly KNOWING your state before God leads directly to surrender, and repentance (unless you run away back into spiritual death like I did every time - until the last time).

Hard hearts can't be convicted of sin. They are impervious to it. The Holy Spirit Himself is the source of our faith through His regeneration. (John 3; Romans 2:5; Ezek 11:19; John 12:39-40; Matt 15:19; Psalm 51:10; Phil 2:13)

If your RESPONSE to "Conviction of SIN" by the Holy Spirit is Surrender, Repentance, and crying out to God in FAITH for salvation, THEN "Born Again"/"Regeneration"/"Salvation" and "infilling of the Holy Spirit" happens - and everything changes.

You would need to support that statement rather than just make it.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Explain how it is word salad otherwise it has no meaning.

Your statement is based on, and uses terminology that is unique to the Calvinist/Reformed paradigm.

I'm not a "Calvinist", nor am I an adherent of any particular "Systematic".

Hard hearts can't be convicted of sin.

Untrue. "Hard Hearts" are all that God has to work with in humans.

He's completely capable of "Convicting" (convincing) humans of SIN and of JUDGEMENT as He pleases, and since "Convicrtion orf SIN is God's word, it's (When accepted) what Biblical FAITH is based on.

The Holy Spirit Himself is the source of our faith through His regeneration.

There's that Calvinist "Buzz word" again. "regeneration" has many definitions in Christendom, besides the Calvinist "twilight state" (not salvation, but apparently some step towards it) probably being used here.

(John 3; Romans 2:5; Ezek 11:19; John 12:39-40; Matt 15:19; Psalm 51:10; Phil 2:13)

You would need to support that statement rather than just make it.

Since you are apparently adhering to the Calvinist/Reformed Paradigm, and its private definition of terms, and I don't "Speak Calvinist", further explanation would be impossible.

 

[Arial]

Your statement is based on, and uses terminology that is unique to the Calvinist/Reformed paradigm.

I'm sorry. That does not make it word salad. It only means you disagree with it.


word salad

noun​

1. A nonsensical assemblage of words, typical of schizophrenia, Wernicke's aphasia, and some other mental disorders.
2. Meaningless text generated by a computer.
3. Jumble of incoherent speech as sometimes heard in schizophrenia.

I'm not a "Calvinist", nor am I an adherent of any particular "Systematic".

Systematic:
: presented or formulated as a coherent body of ideas or principles
systematic thought


3
a
: methodical in procedure or plan
a systematic approach

a systematic scholar

b
: marked by thoroughness and regularity
Do you do that?

There's that Calvinist "Buzz word" again. "regeneration" has many definitions in Christendom, besides the Calvinist "twilight state" (not salvation, but apparently some step towards it) probably being used here.

Pretty sure regeneration is used and understood in all of Christendom. Show me another. It refers to what the Bible calls being born again. The difference in theologies of the concept is when it occurs. After we have taken the most important first step or by the power of God so we do take that first step? Calling it a twilight state simply shows you have no idea what the teaching is, and yet you disagree with it.

Since you are apparently adhering to the Calvinist/Reformed Paradigm, and its private definition of terms, and I don't "Speak Calvinist", further explanation would be impossible.

A private interpretation of words! Hah! That's a new nondefense that acts just like evasion,that I haven't heard yet. Can you at least tell me what those words are that you say Calvinists have a private definition of? If not then I will take the statement for what it appears to be. Running one's mouth but having no idea what to say.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Systematic:
: presented or formulated as a coherent body of ideas or principles
systematic thought

And as you know there are MANY existent theological "systematics" claiming to be "Coherent systems" the define the Biblical message. Calvinism is one, Arminianism is another, Catholics have their own, "Oneness" has one, Sabbaterians have one, etc.

Since I was initially indoctrinated by Southern Baptists (new converts class) I followed theirs (which I thought was "Calvinism" until I found out that it wasn't).

Do you do that?

Sure, I just don't happen to hang my hat on anybody else's.

Can you at least tell me what those words are that you say Calvinists have a private definition of?

I already did. "Regeneration" is bandied about by Calvinists, and I've read several versions of it from calvinist folks right here. Regeneration, in the larger Christian sense is simply synonymous with "Being Saved", being "Born Again", "becoming a Christian", etc. i.e it's the WHOLE PACKAGE, and not some "intermediate condition", necessary to pass through, to get to full salvation. It appears to be the Calvinist "Work around" for their "Total depravity" theology.

 

[Josheb]

Yes, that's why I originally said it.

I think it is related. How can I have a conversation about regeneration without defining regeneration? And as I said earlier, the moment of belief is the moment of re-generation. So the contingency of salvation on belief directly relates to the timing of regeneration and salvation.

Fleshly belief is not causa and if your position is that "belief is the moment of regeneration" then make that case with well-rendered scripture.

Foreknowledge is not causation.

Never said it was.

As nearly as I can tell I'm on topic...

What is the topic of the specified in the op?

...but if I'm annoying to you or the fellow who started the topic, I can bail.

Adios, then. /unwatched

It would be better if the topical, op-relevant discussion was enjoined and irrelevancies like others' supposed feeling annoyed was left out of the posts.

 

[JIM]

I don't find the John 6:37 verse particularly useful because it specifies giving of the person to Christ, not the giving of the Spirit or regeneration. The latter can be inferred, but the clarity of verse 63 is undeniable. The flesh profits nothing and since the unregenerate has only flesh no choise or trust made in that (still sinful and unregenerate) flesh can profit anything. It cannot profit the unregenerate salvation. It cannot profit him/her a change in his/her relationship with God. It cannot profit him God doing anything different. It cannot profit him any change on God's part.

It profits nothing.


So..... while they argue over whether or not "all" means all, or "world" means world, their same demand must force them to accept the flesh profits NOTHING. The word "nothing" means nothing.

What flesh do you think Jesus is talking about in verse 63?

 

[Josheb]

What flesh do you think Jesus is talking about in verse 63?

Sinful flesh.

Apart from Jesus' incarnate flesh, there was no other kind of human flesh existent at the time he said those words. After Calvary that condition changed because there is now no condemnation for those in Christ. The law of the Spirit of life in Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death because God sent His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh as an offering for sin and thereby condemned sin in the flesh. We, those in Christ, therefore, no longer walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit (Rom. 8:1-4).

However, If I am provided some scriptural evidence proving there is such a thing as not-sinful flesh other than pre-Genesis 3:6-7 Adam and Eve and Jesus then I am all eyes and ears. Otherwise, the fact all flesh is sinful at the time Jesus said those words is the only possible answer to the question asked..... and the inherent inescapable context of John 6:63.

 

[JIM]

Sinful flesh.

Apart from Jesus' incarnate flesh, there was no other kind of human flesh existent at the time he said those words. After Calvary that condition changed because there is now no condemnation for those in Christ. The law of the Spirit of life in Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death because God sent His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh as an offering for sin and thereby condemned sin in the flesh. We, those in Christ, therefore, no longer walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit (Rom. 8:1-4).

However, If I am provided some scriptural evidence proving there is such a thing as not-sinful flesh other than pre-Genesis 3:6-7 Adam and Eve and Jesus then I am all eyes and ears. Otherwise, the fact all flesh is sinful at the time Jesus said those words is the only possible answer to the question asked..... and the inherent inescapable context of John 6:63.

Joh 6:53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.
Joh 6:54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:55 "For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
Joh 6:56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
Joh 6:57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.
Joh 6:58 "This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever."
Joh 6:59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
The Words of Eternal Life
Joh 6:60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?"
Joh 6:61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble?
Joh 6:62 "What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?
Joh 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

Read through that passage and tell me again what flesh Jesus is talking about. Actually, you could start back a verse 22.

 

[Josheb]

Joh 6:53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.
Joh 6:54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:55 "For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.
Joh 6:56 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
Joh 6:57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me.
Joh 6:58 "This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever."
Joh 6:59 These things He said in the synagogue as He taught in Capernaum.
The Words of Eternal Life
Joh 6:60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?"
Joh 6:61 But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, "Does this cause you to stumble?
Joh 6:62 "What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before?
Joh 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

Read through that passage and tell me again what flesh Jesus is talking about. Actually, you could start back a verse 22.

I stand by my answer. The flesh to which Jesus is referencing is the sinful flesh. During the middle of the chapter Jesus speaks briefly about his flesh, but 1) he hadn't yet died so the eating of his flesh wasn't then relevant, and 2) his flesh is profitable. It is the only flesh that is. Therefore, Jesus cannot logically or exegetically have been referring to his flesh when he says, "the flesh profits nothing," because his flesh was good, sinless and the only flesh that has ever profited anything.

Your turn.

 

[JIM]

I stand by my answer. The flesh to which Jesus is referencing is the sinful flesh. During the middle of the chapter Jesus speaks briefly about his flesh, but 1) he hadn't yet died so the eating of his flesh wasn't then relevant, and 2) his flesh is profitable. It is the only flesh that is. Therefore, Jesus cannot logically or exegetically have been referring to his flesh when he says, "the flesh profits nothing," because his flesh was good, sinless and the only flesh that has ever profited anything.

Your turn.

I will give you John Gill's answer.

John 6:63

the flesh profiteth nothing; the human nature of Christ, though profitable, as in union with the Son of God, to be given for the life of his people, and to be an offering, and a sacrifice for their sins, yet not as alone, or as abstracted from the divine nature; nor would his flesh and blood, corporeally eaten, could, or should it be done, be of any avail to eternal life; nor is any other flesh, literally understood, profitable of itself for life; for man lives not by bread, or meat, or flesh alone, but by the word and blessing of God upon it, and along with it; nor flesh, in a figurative sense, as creature acts and performances, self-righteousness, obedience to the ceremonial law, carnal descent, and birth privileges:

 

[Josheb]

I will give you John Gill's answer.

I prefer scripture.

That quoted portion was not all that Gill said on the matter. Scripture explains Jesus wasn't talking about cannibalism so neither could Gill. Aside from that Gill is saying the exact same thing I posted: Sinful flesh is the only other flesh in existence at the time of Jesus' John 6 words, besides that of Jesus'. Gill was just quoted stating, "nor is any other flesh, literally understood, profitable of itself for life." That is exactly what I posted in different wording. Gill excluded human flesh in both literal and spiritual senses. I don't know why Gill's words might be thought any different in meaning than what was previously posted, or why Gill's commentary might be more authoritative than plainly read scripture.

As far as the appeal to Gil as an authority goes, the appeal is fallacious. You or I, or any one of the many posters here in this thread, could each pick five Christian authors and end up with several dozen differing commentaries with not a single one of the being authoritative over scripture, and many of them wrong in some way. Had the rest of Gill's commentary on the John 6 text been quoted we'd find Gill making the gospel equivalent to the Spirit.

"the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life; the doctrines which Christ had then been delivering concerning himself, his flesh and blood, being spiritually understood, are the means of quickening souls. The Gospel, and the truths of it, which are the wholesome words of our Lord Jesus Christ, are the means of conveying the Spirit of God, as a spirit of illumination and sanctification, into the hearts of men, and of quickening sinners dead in trespasses and sins: the Gospel is the Spirit that giveth life, and is the savour of life unto life, when it comes not in word only, or in the bare ministry of it, but with the energy of the Holy Ghost, and the power of divine grace."​

Appeals to authority are fallacious.

The gospel and the Spirit are not interchangeable terms and Jesus was NOT claiming the gospel is the Spirit. Neither was Jesus teaching words are identical to, synonymous with, or interchangeable with regeneration. Even if we were to read verse 63 as a reference to Jesus' flesh, that still precludes the sinner's sinful flesh from being the profitable agent. Citing Gill has not changed that fact. Stick to scripture and reason with me through what scripture actually states, and not what some extra-biblical theologian might make it say.



The fact remains: Other than Jesus' sinless flesh, all other human flesh was sinful, and sinful flesh does not profit anything soteriologically. Gill agrees .

 

[JIM]

I prefer scripture.

Then read the scripture. Begin with John 6:22 and go to the end of the chapter. The message in verse 63 is that His previous discussion concerning the feeding on His flesh and drinking His blood (e.g., v.56) is not to be taken literally, It is His words that He has spoken that are spirit and life (v.63)

 

[Josheb]

Then read the scripture. Begin with John 6:22 and go to the end of the chapter. The message in verse 63 is that His previous discussion concerning the feeding on His flesh and drinking His blood (e.g., v.56) is not to be taken literally, It is His words that He has spoken that are spirit and life (v.63)

I completely agree.

But that is not all that he is saying because all of scripture provides contexts for all that he said. Jesus was not commending cannibalism, and he was not commending sinful flesh. He was commending the Spirit and the Spirit alone as profitable.

 

[donadams]

63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. John 6:63, 65

"All the Father gives me will come to me..." - John 6:37

The words "grant" (v 65) and "give" (v 37) are the same Greek word.


Jesus is teaching, NO ONE can come to faith in him unless the Father grants it, and ALL whom He grants will come ... and that by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. This very plain talk spoken in the context of a discussion on faith, leaves no room whatsoever for a synergistic, prevenient grace.

The initial action is grace!

 

[Carbon]

The initial action is grace!

Then works, right?

 

[donadams]

Then works, right?

Ask and you shall receive

Blessed are the merciful they shall receive mercy

Obedience unto righteousness

My grace is sufficient for you, must suffer

Phil 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matt 24:13 endures “in Christ” to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Prayer, alms, fasting, suffering, sacrifice, sacraments, practice of virtue etc. yes works
Faith working thru love

Thanks

 

[brightfame52]

@Carbon

Jesus is teaching, NO ONE can come to faith in him unless the Father grants it, and ALL whom He grants will come ... and that by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. This very plain talk spoken in the context of a discussion on faith, leaves no room whatsoever for a synergistic, prevenient grace.

Exactly, Jesus teaches regeneration before and unto faith here as well Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This speaks to mans natural inability to come to or believe in Christ for all Salvation, unless the Father draws them, which is regeneration.