Jesus is God {title edited}

[Fred]

The Son isn't the Father.

Strawman.

I never claimed He is.

 

[Arial]

Anyway, God’s grace is conditional and access to God’s grace isn’t without merit. There are no special goody boxes waiting for those in heaven based on how “good” they were. The gift is you may get to live forever and be a co-heir with Jesus, the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

You have just defined grace as something it is impossible for grace to be. Rom 11:5-6 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works: otherwise grace would no longer be grace.
And if those who are in Christ through faith are still subject to condemnation, then the words of Paul are a big fat lie.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 16. The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs---heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ,provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him. 31-35 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died---more than that who was raised---who is at the right hand of God,who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution,, or famine, or nakedness, or danger or sword?

Just “believe Jesus” and continuing in sin isn’t a biblical doctrine. I don’t want anyone to be confused here and not get informed about this.

A person who says they believe Jesus and continues in unrepentant sin does not believe Jesus. You are presenting a straw man as your argument. No one has said we can continue in sin. No one has said that being saved by faith alone means we can continue in sin. What is said is that according to the Bible we are saved by faith in the person and work of Jesus. ANd that in that according to scripture as explained by the apostles and especially Paul in Romans, that faith unites us with Christ and, as He bore our sins on the cross as our substitute, by imputation, so those who are joined to Him through faith, have His righteousness imputed to us. It is not our righteousness that saves us and never could be, it is His righteousness that justifies us before God.

If someone is so intimately joined to Christ as to be said to be in Him, what sort of fruit would they produce? His fruit. The fruit of righteousness. So, even though we are saved by faith alone, that faith is not and cannot be, alone. Faith obeys the One in who the faith is in. And if it does not, then the faith does not really exist. Jesus obeyed God completely and perfectly because His faith in God, as Son of Man, was complete and perfect.

 

[STAND]

It is a single verse that you cannot debut.

That's your excuse to disregard His word?

Laim, lady.

ps, there are tons of His word you disregard.

Don't come to me to quote them.

You cannot rebut even a single verse.

That's it? That's your whole argument?

How does Jn. 20:17 prove so definitively that Jesus is not God?

Explain it.

 

[Eleanor]

Me--- says you are wrong. Jesus says you are wrong-John 20:17

Falls somewhat short of dealing with
Jn 1:1, 14, where the Word (Jesus) is God and became flesh, and
Mt 28:19, where Jesus gives the singular "name of" God as three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

 

[STAND]

The Bible does say Jesus has a Father and was "begotten" the day God became his Father. He was created. - Hebrews 1:5

Begotten is modern English translation. The original Greek uses a word more close to 'only Son' and 'unique'.

3439
monogenés: only begotten
Original Word: μονογενής, ές
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: monogenés
Phonetic Spelling: (mon-og-en-ace')
Definition: only begotten
Usage: only, only-begotten; unique.

Sorry, but no matter what verse you are considering, its interpretation MUST coincide with the rest of Scripture. Claiming that Jesus was created doesn't follow the rest of Scripture on the subject. He had no human father, therefore He was not just a mortal man.

He's a man therefore he is mortal.

Sorry, it's just not that simple.

How do you reconcile His omnipotence that He declares in John 3:13? The Source (Father) was declared to have the same omnipotence in Jer. 23:24.

Not mortal.

Sorry.

According to the genealogy of Adam he is descended directly from God

And that helps your case how?

Thanks for rightly saying that the Father is the true recipient of prayer. Matt 6:6,9

Nope. I didn't say that.

Jesus accepts worship and forgives sins.

Only God does that.

 

[grace2]

That's it? That's your whole argument?

How does Jn. 20:17 prove so definitively that Jesus is not God?

Explain it.

What part of He said don't you understand????????

God is one. But you guys claim the God the Father, God the Son.

That makes two Gods.

So you are going against God and Jesus.

You guys making your definition of God.

Your god is triune.

Jesus' God is His Father as well as our Father.

Jesus says that's the most important commandment.

So you have no place for God's kingdom, denying God and Jesus' word.

that's what happens when you don't know God and Jesus.

Professing to be Christians yet don't even recognize the simple word of God and Jesus.

 

[STAND]

What part of He said don't you understand????????

God is one. But you guys claim the God the Father, God the Son.

That makes two Gods.

So you are going against God and Jesus.

You guys making your definition of God.

Your god is triune.

Jesus' God is His Father as well as our Father.

Jesus says that's the most important commandment.

So you have no place for God's kingdom, denying God and Jesus' word.

that's what happens when you don't know God and Jesus.

Professing to be Christians yet don't even recognize the simple word of God and Jesus.

I don't understand a lot of what you post.

The Father also said that Jesus was HIS God as well.
Heb.1:8

This might come as a surprise, but denying the Trinity doesn't automatically make Jesus not God.

Jesus is God whether there's a Trinity or not.

There doesn't have to be a Trinity for Jesus to be God.

 

[grace2]

I don't understand a lot of what you post.

You guys don't understand God and Jesus at all.

 

[Runningman]

Begotten is modern English translation. The original Greek uses a word more close to 'only Son' and 'unique'.

3439
monogenés: only begotten
Original Word: μονογενής, ές
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: monogenés
Phonetic Spelling: (mon-og-en-ace')
Definition: only begotten
Usage: only, only-begotten; unique.

I knew you would refer to that usage of the word begotten and refer to its usage as "only" or "unique" which is why I quoted Hebrews 1:5 that doesn't use that word, but instead ueses γεννάω (gennaó) which has the below definition:

G1080. gennaó​

gennaó: to beget, to bring forth​

Original Word: γεννάω​

Part of Speech: Verb​

Transliteration: gennaó​

Phonetic Spelling: (ghen-nah'-o)​

Definition: to beget, to bring forth​

Usage: I beget (of the male), (of the female) I bring forth, give birth to.​

This was done so you couldn't maintain any sort of semblance of deniability of the fact that the Son, indeed, has a literal birth date; a date of creation. He was procreated and is God's offspring.

Sorry, but no matter what verse you are considering, its interpretation MUST coincide with the rest of Scripture. Claiming that Jesus was created doesn't follow the rest of Scripture on the subject. He had no human father, therefore He was not just a mortal man.

I will say the same to you. Since your brought up monogenés, it is also defined as begotten. Therefore, since Hebrews 1:5 contains gennaó, then Jesus being the begotten Son, created in John 1:18, then this is the correct translation of John 1:18:

John 1
18No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

How do you reconcile His omnipotence that He declares in John 3:13? The Source (Father) was declared to have the same omnipotence in Jer. 23:24.

Jesus didn't claim to have omnipotence in John 3:13. Please let me know why you think that.

Not mortal.

Mortal. Belief in Jesus' death is a required point in the gospel.

1 Corinthians 15
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

Jesus accepts worship

Jesus accepted bowing down to in regards to being the Son of God, but in regards to being God he refused worship

Revelation 22​

8And I, John, am he who is seeing these things and hearing, and when I heard and beheld, I fell down to worship before the feet of the messenger who is showing me these things; 9and he says to me, “Behold—No! For I am your fellow servant, and of your brothers the prophets, and of those keeping the words of this scroll; worship God.”​

and forgives sins.

According to Scripture, Jesus and "men" forgave sins because God gave them the authority to do it. In and of himself, Jesus had no authority or power except for what God gave him or did through him and his disciples:

Matthew 9
4But Jesus knewb what they were thinking and said, “Why do you harbor evil in your hearts? 5Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk?’ 6But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...” Then He said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your mat, and go home.” 7And the man got up and went home.

8When the crowds saw this, they were filled with awe and glorified God, who had given such authority to men.

Only God does that.

According to scripture, God gave men the authority to do it.

I hope that helps.

 

[Runningman]

You have just defined grace as something it is impossible for grace to be.

Perhaps Biblical grace can't be grace according to your theology because there is a disconnect between the verses you quote and the commentary about what you believe they mean. Here is an example of needing to do something to remain in God's grace:

Below, Paul did indeed teach that if you do not hold firmly to the gospel then their belief in that gospel was in vain. What he means is that they most likely stopped believing the gospel and their past belief in it became in vain. Paul is saying they lost their salvation. They are not saved, past belief in the gospel is futile at this point. They fell from grace.

1 Corinthians 15​

2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.​

​

There is so much more to say, but I don't prefer to write long commentaries if something shorter can produce the effect of your understanding about something in the Bible.

If that isn't clear, Paul directly confirmed in no uncertain terms that it is possible to be severed from Christ and fall from grace. Salvation can be lost. There is something for you to do to get that eternal life. If it helps, please read the last comment I sent to you where Jesus didn't say "Just believe and you're saved" but rather said to keep the commandments to have eternal life.

​

Galatians 5​

4You who are trying to be justified by the law have been severed from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.​

 

[STAND]

You guys don't understand God and Jesus at all.

All you can do is keep attempting to make your case with Scripture.

Unsubstantiated claims, or personal accusations, are pointless here and not productive at all.

 

[Arial]

Perhaps Biblical grace can't be grace according to your theology because there is a disconnect between the verses you quote and the commentary about what you believe they mean. Here is an example of needing to do something to remain in God's grace:

My theology of grace is biblical grace. Remember----I quoted direct scriptures using grace in the Bible. Paul said if salvation came by works it was no longer grace. Grace is the favor of God on those who do not deserve His favor. Paul, not me, is the one who said if it is works it isn't grace.

1 Corinthians 152By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

What was the word he preached? And why is Paul writing that letter to the church at Corinth?

If that isn't clear, Paul directly confirmed in no uncertain terms that it is possible to be severed from Christ and fall from grace. Salvation can be lost.

Then you are still calling Paul a liar and presenting the Bible as nothing more than what you say it is, and just as unreliable. Or maybe you agree with @grace2 that Paul is a heretic?

 

[STAND]

I knew you would refer to that usage of the word begotten and refer to its usage as "only" or "unique" which is why I quoted Hebrews 1:5 that doesn't use that word, but instead ueses γεννάω (gennaó) which has the below definition:

G1080. gennaó​

gennaó: to beget, to bring forth​

Original Word: γεννάω​

Part of Speech: Verb​

Transliteration: gennaó​

Phonetic Spelling: (ghen-nah'-o)​

Definition: to beget, to bring forth​

Usage: I beget (of the male), (of the female) I bring forth, give birth to.​

This was done so you couldn't maintain any sort of semblance of deniability of the fact that the Son, indeed, has a literal birth date; a date of creation. He was procreated and is God's offspring.

I will say the same to you. Since your brought up monogenés, it is also defined as begotten. Therefore, since Hebrews 1:5 contains gennaó, then Jesus being the begotten Son, created in John 1:18, then this is the correct translation of John 1:18:

John 1
18No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.

Jesus didn't claim to have omnipotence in John 3:13. Please let me know why you think that.

Mortal. Belief in Jesus' death is a required point in the gospel.

1 Corinthians 15
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

Jesus accepted bowing down to in regards to being the Son of God, but in regards to being God he refused worship

Revelation 22​

8And I, John, am he who is seeing these things and hearing, and when I heard and beheld, I fell down to worship before the feet of the messenger who is showing me these things; 9and he says to me, “Behold—No! For I am your fellow servant, and of your brothers the prophets, and of those keeping the words of this scroll; worship God.”​

According to Scripture, Jesus and "men" forgave sins because God gave them the authority to do it. In and of himself, Jesus had no authority or power except for what God gave him or did through him and his disciples:

Matthew 9
4But Jesus knewb what they were thinking and said, “Why do you harbor evil in your hearts? 5Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk?’ 6But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...” Then He said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your mat, and go home.” 7And the man got up and went home.

8When the crowds saw this, they were filled with awe and glorified God, who had given such authority to men.



According to scripture, God gave men the authority to do it.

I hope that helps.

The real issue with all of you who argue that Jesus is not God is that not one of you debates/argues/discusses with any manner of sincerity or honesty. You can have all the evidence in the world delivered to you openly and you will continue to deaf-ear it and march on with your propaganda as if none of it was ever produced.

It's the only way possible for you to conduct your agenda of heresy. There's way too much proof in the Bible that Jesus is God.

"... the Son of man ... is in heaven."
Jesus speaking (Jn. 3:13)

Deny that verse all you like, it's the only option you have as it annihilates your case.

Just like Jesus knocking down 100 big strong Roman Soldiers simply by speaking the words "I AM" - which means 'I am the God of the Old Testament'.
John 18:4-6

Deny it - it's your only play.

Bring forth doesn't mean create. God incarnated into the flesh - plain and simple.

Jesus the man was sacrificed, His physical body bled blood and water and died on the Cross. The Spirit of God Almighty that animated that body cannot, and did not, die. A sacrifice requires blood and death of the physical body - that's exactly what Christ did and all that was needed for Him to complete His purpose in the flesh.

One of your team's biggest battle cries is "Jesus never claimed to be God!!", but He claimed it many times, many ways, He said if you've seen Me, you've seen the Father so that destroys your claim there, and He plainly stated to be God Almighty in Rev. 1:8.

All of these proof texts are shown to you by everyone you engage with and you just ignore them and continue on and THAT'S why you have no business on a Christian Discussion forum. You literally do not deserve to be here.

Just as Admin stated, you are not a true Christian and you shouldn't be allowed to peddle your snake oil here. You are a Charlatan.

 

[Runningman]

My theology of grace is biblical grace. Remember----I quoted direct scriptures using grace in the Bible. Paul said if salvation came by works it was no longer grace. Grace is the favor of God on those who do not deserve His favor. Paul, not me, is the one who said if it is works it isn't grace.

What was the word he preached? And why is Paul writing that letter to the church at Corinth?

Then you are still calling Paul a liar and presenting the Bible as nothing more than what you say it is, and just as unreliable. Or maybe you agree with @grace2 that Paul is a heretic?

Paul said you can fall from grace. If there is something you can do to fall from grace then grace is based on your merits. It requires your trust, your faith if you will, in God’s plan and your obedience to it.

If you decide to go try to be justified by the Law of Moses you will sever yourself from Christ and fall from grace. What you do actually matters. The Bible says so all over the place. We will indeed be judged by works. Some will resurrect to eternal life and some to judgment.

 

[Runningman]

The real issue with all of you who argue that Jesus is not God is that not one of you debates/argues/discusses with any manner of sincerity or honesty. You can have all the evidence in the world delivered to you openly and you will continue to deaf-ear it and march on with your propaganda as if none of it was ever produced.

I just proved to you that the Son was literally begotten in the literal sense of the word using Hebrews 1:5. This isn’t dishonesty or propaganda even if it feels that way. This clearly makes you uncomfortable, but often the truth is difficult to accept. The Bible testifies in the last days there will be those who hate the truth.

It's the only way possible for you to conduct your agenda of heresy. There's way too much proof in the Bible that Jesus is God.

That’s your opinion. What’s more likely is that you’re upset that I refuted all of your talking points using scripture.

"... the Son of man ... is in heaven."
Jesus speaking (Jn. 3:13)

You said he had declared omnipotency and he didn’t. You seem to be back-pedaling now. I want you to know I will look up verses if you quote them. I also have read the rest of the Bible. A lot.

Read John 6 where Jesus compares himself to the manna that came down from heaven - saying he is the bread of life. He isn’t saying he pre-existed in heaven anymore than the manna from heaven pre-existed in heaven. God created the manna, manifested it if you will, and sent it to the Israelites. The same is true of Jesus.

The manna existed in God’s plan and foreknowledge and so did Jesus.

Deny that verse all you like, it's the only option you have as it annihilates your case.

John 3:13 and all of the Unitarians said Amen! There is nothing in scripture I deny or disagree with.

Just like Jesus knocking down 100 big strong Roman Soldiers simply by speaking the words "I AM" - which means 'I am the God of the Old Testament'.
John 18:4-6

I see we’ve reached the point of the conversation, rather quickly, where the first set of alleged proofs didn’t stick, now you’re just going through the usual list of trinitarian talking points.

where does the Bible say Jesus knocked them down?

Jesus isn’t the “I am.” Read Acts 3:13 and Exodus 3:14,15 where Jesus isn’t the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Jesus is God’s servant, not God.

Bring forth doesn't mean create. God incarnated into the flesh - plain and simple.

where was the Son before he was begotten then?

Jesus the man was sacrificed, His physical body bled blood and water and died on the Cross. The Spirit of God Almighty that animated that body cannot, and did not, die. A sacrifice requires blood and death of the physical body - that's exactly what Christ did and all that was needed for Him to complete His purpose in the flesh.

The human body isn’t what is perfectly sinless. We are essentially a mass of extremely complicated and wonderfully designed matter. Essentially, we’re dust.

Do you know what was perfectly sinless about Jesus that got crucified?

One of your team's biggest battle cries is "Jesus never claimed to be God!!", but He claimed it many times, many ways, He said if you've seen Me, you've seen the Father so that destroys your claim there, and He plainly stated to be God Almighty in Rev. 1:8.

He never claimed to be God. Revelation 1:8 is not a quote by Jesus either. 99% of the English Bibles refuse to assign red lettering to that verse. Most scholars rightly know that isn’t Jesus talking. Read the context please.

All of these proof texts are shown to you by everyone you engage with and you just ignore them and continue on and THAT'S why you have no business on a Christian Discussion forum. You literally do not deserve to be here.

This is a public forum and I was personally invited here by the admin. So you would be in the minority opinion there.

Just as Admin stated, you are not a true Christian and you shouldn't be allowed to peddle your snake oil here. You are a Charlatan.

Thank you. I love it when people say bad things about me for being a Christian. God will bless me for it.

By the way, welcome to the forum. May God bless you abundantly.

 

[Arial]

Paul said you can fall from grace. If there is something you can do to fall from grace then grace is based on your merits. It requires your trust, your faith if you will, in God’s plan and your obedience to it.

That isn't what Paul meant or he would be contradicting himself, Jesus, and the the other apostles. Taking all the Bible on the subject of salvation unto eternal life together, re read that and find the meaning that doesn't contradict those that say we cannot lose our salvation. Jesus says He will lose none. Not one.

If you decide to go try to be justified by the Law of Moses you will sever yourself from Christ and fall from grace. What you do actually matters. The Bible says so all over the place. We will indeed be judged by works. Some will resurrect to eternal life and some to judgment.

Someone who tries to be justified by the Law is not and was not in Christ in the first place. As to being obedient to God and His commandments, read again what I have said about it. And then either accept it as resolving the issue or actually show me how it doesn't.

What is said is that according to the Bible we are saved by faith in the person and work of Jesus. ANd that in that according to scripture as explained by the apostles and especially Paul in Romans, that faith unites us with Christ and, as He bore our sins on the cross as our substitute, by imputation, so those who are joined to Him through faith, have His righteousness imputed to us. It is not our righteousness that saves us and never could be, it is His righteousness that justifies us before God.

If someone is so intimately joined to Christ as to be said to be in Him, what sort of fruit would they produce? His fruit. The fruit of righteousness. So, even though we are saved by faith alone, that faith is not and cannot be, alone. Faith obeys the One in who the faith is in. And if it does not, then the faith does not really exist. Jesus obeyed God completely and perfectly because His faith in God, as Son of Man, was complete and perfect.

I will be waiting.

 

[grace2]

Then you are still calling Paul a liar and presenting the Bible as nothing more than what you say it is, and just as unreliable. Or maybe you agree with @grace2 that Paul is a heretic?

You guys are abusing and misusing Paul's teaching.

You have asked this a gazillion times and I answered accordingly.

 

[grace2]

All you can do is keep attempting to make your case with Scripture.

You will not accept all the inconvenient teachings of God and Jesus.,

So there is no use explaining to you.

You have ears but cannot hear.

Your heart is tightly shut to the simple Truth.

 

[Keiw1]

Falls somewhat short of dealing with
Jn 1:1, 14, where the Word (Jesus) is God and became flesh, and
Mt 28:19, where Jesus gives the singular "name of" God as three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

In the Greek Lexicons both at John 1:1 and 2 Cor 4:4--The true God called-Ton Theon= God--the other 2 beings=The word and satan, called god are called Theon. Its why there is a difference of what one is actually being called. The only word in Greek for God or god is Theon( Theos)--so to show the difference if both are used in the same paragraph, God is called Ton Theon.
All true followers represent that name=YHVH(Jehovah)--that is all that its showing.

 

[Runningman]

That isn't what Paul meant or he would be contradicting himself, Jesus, and the the other apostles. Taking all the Bible on the subject of salvation unto eternal life together, re read that and find the meaning that doesn't contradict those that say we cannot lose our salvation.

I know about eternal salvation. Will you let me know what you think may be a contradiction between something Paul said and the others?

Jesus says He will lose none. Not one.

It's more nuanced than that because Jesus said many things. Sheep can be lost, led astray, and not recovered again. God doesn't desire this nor is idle while it happens. God will do a lot to bring someone back, but ultimately people can refuse to repent, turn from their sin, be healed, and die in their sins.

Matt 18
12What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep and one of them goes astray, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go out to search for the one that is lost? 13And if he finds it, truly I tell you, he rejoices more over that one sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14In the same way, your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish.

Someone who tries to be justified by the Law is not and was not in Christ in the first place.

Paul said they were "severed from Christ" meaning that in the first place they were connected to Christ and then tried to be justified by the law of Moses. After that, they have fallen from grace. It's pretty clear what Paul said. Surely grace is found with God, but not unconditionally. This contradicts nothing Paul said.