Issues with a doctrine(s) of grace?

[Eleanor]

Saying being birthed by the Spirit IN Christ ..is not in scripture...you said ..spirit gives birth to spirit..is not scriptural...?
I said I can’t find anywhere in scripture where it says....being birthed by the Spirit in Christ...I asked for that scripture that was all?..Romans 8:9 is saying we are in the realms of the Spirit.

Romans 8:9​

9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit,

When Paul uses the word "spiritual," the above is his meaning.
In Paul, "spiritual" does not mean non-material, bodyless, non-physical.

if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.

1 Peter 1:11 in Other Translations​

KJV
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
KJV
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

 

[TB2]

Well have it your way. There's no convincing a full blown charismatic any different. They have EXPERIENCED! it. They have PROOF!

That's rather rude and you know nothing about me (nor do I classify myself as a charismatic much less "a full blown" one, whatever that means), and I have restricted my comments to what we see in Scripture. We're all on the same team here.

 

[Eleanor]

Nope. You cant go anywhere. Sorry.

Guess I just got my wings clipped.

 

[Ritajanice]

When Paul uses the word "spiritual," the above is his meaning.
In Paul, "spiritual" does not mean non-material, bodyless, non-physical.

Ok, thanks for that information, @Eleanor .

 

[prism]

How, in terms of your meaning of responsibility, is man responsible for Adam's sin imputed to man (Ro 5:12-14), which condemns him (Ro 5:18)?

The same way in which we are not responsible for the righteousness of Christ which is imputed to us which justifies us.

 

[TB2]

@Ritajanice interesting fact, spiritual means something quite different today (obviously) than then and in some ways Paul coined the use of the word (at least put a unique Christian understanding on it).

Spiritual literally relates to 'of the Spirit,' born 'of the Spirit,' 'Spirit inspired/inspired of the Spirit,' or similar sense. Always seems to relate to the Holy Spirit in some way.

 

[Eleanor]

How, in terms of your meaning of responsibility, is man responsible for Adam's sin imputed to him (Ro 5:12-14), which condemns him (Ro 5:18)?

The same way in which we are not responsible for the righteousness of Christ which is imputed to us which justifies us.

But I am held responsible for Adam's sin imputed to me (Ro 5:12-14), which is why it condemns me (Ro 5:18).

 

[prism]

But I am held responsible for Adam's sin imputed to me, which is why it condemns me.

Good one! Was that by design?

 

[Eleanor]

Good one! Was that by design?

Good what?

What design?

So, how, in terms of your meaning of responsibility, is man justly responsible for Adam's sin imputed to him (Ro 5:12-14), which condemns him (Ro 5:18)?

 

[Arial]

That's rather rude and you know nothing about me (nor do I classify myself as a charismatic much less "a full blown" one, whatever that means), and I have restricted my comments to what we see in Scripture. We're all on the same team here.

Well hey, I used to be one so I know what I am talking about. I tried to keep it to what I see in scripture which is not what you see. You gave me what you see, then posted as support a bunch of charismatic views. And not lumping them all into the same ball of dough, what they produce, what is seen in evidence in the gatherings, is not biblical unless you consider the stern correction Paul gave the church at Corinth. That can be found in the Bible. And what is not biblical does not belong in Christ's church. Unity of believers does not mean accept everything believers come up with. I am not making a comment about persons, but teaching. It is impossible to move them away from their experiences.

I had to settle from scripture what was unbiblical about it even though it always raised the hair on the back of my neck. I was a new believer at the time. They knew more than I did. And I did find where certain scriptures were being distorted and what the straight line of them is.

 

[Arial]

How, in terms of your meaning of responsibility, is man responsible for Adam's sin imputed to man (Ro 5:12-14), which condemns him (Ro 5:18)?

Jumping in: God determined before the creation of the world that Adam would be the federal head of all mankind. Just as Jesus is the federal head of the redeemed in Him. Man isn't responsible for anyone's sins but his own. And all men, redeemed and unredeemed are responsible to God---meaning it is a given that we must obey and worship Him. He is King over all.

 

[Arial]

But I am held responsible for Adam's sin imputed to me (Ro 5:12-14), which is why it condemns me (Ro 5:18).

Adam's sin is not imputed to us in the same way as our sins are imputed to Christ and His righteousness is imputed to us. Adam's sin is imputed to us in the sense that it is through Adam that we all sin. How we came to have a nature to sin. But we do all actually sin ourselves. The very nature to sin is in us. Is a part of who we are.

Our actual sins are imputed to Christ in the sense that He bore our sins on the cross to take their penalty. He had no actual sin. And His righteousness is imputed to us in that same sense. We do not have actual perfect righteousness, His is counted as ours.

 

[GeneZ]

DELETED BY MOD

Wow!

I did not know Mods and Rockers are back.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mods_and_rockers

.

 

[GeneZ]

Good one! Was that by design?

Do mean, did God plan it that way?

 

[TB2]

Well hey, I used to be one so I know what I am talking about

OK, but that's not what I'm talking about

You gave me what you see, then posted as support a bunch of charismatic views.

Actually I did not. I was referencing events attested in Scripture

And not lumping them all into the same ball of dough, what they produce, what is seen in evidence in the gatherings, is not biblical unless you consider the stern correction Paul gave the church at Corinth.

You seem to be projecting a lot of bad experiences on to my comments which were about Scripture, not charismatic excesses

I had to settle from scripture what was unbiblical about it even though it always raised the hair on the back of my neck. I was a new believer at the time. They knew more than I did. And I did find where certain scriptures were being distorted and what the straight line of them is.

I'm sorry to hear of your experiences.
But again, I'm referring to what's taught and recorded in Scripture

 

[Eleanor]

Jumping in: God determined before the creation of the world that Adam would be the federal head of all mankind. Just as Jesus is the federal head of the redeemed in Him.

But I don't find "federal head" in the NT.
I find first Adam and last Adam, and that is in regard to the contrast between our two bodies; i.e.,
the pre-resurrection natural (sinful) physical body (first Adam) and the post-resurrection spiritual (sinless) physical body (last Adam).
"Federal headship" seems to be a man-made overlay on Scripture.

Man isn't responsible for anyone's sins but his own. And all men, redeemed and unredeemed are responsible to God---meaning it is a given that we must obey and worship Him. He is King over all.

But we die because Adam's sin is imputed to us (Ro 5:12-14), just as they died between Adam and Moses when there was no law and, therefore, no sin to account against them, yet "sin was in the world"; i.e., the imputed sin of Adam which condemns all mankind (Ro 5:18).

 

[Ritajanice]

Romans 5:12-21

King James Version

​

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[GeneZ]

But I am held responsible for Adam's sin imputed to me (Ro 5:12-14), which is why it condemns me (Ro 5:18).

We are only responsible to do something about it....

For Jesus took the responsibility for the penalty for Adam's sin while on the Cross.

We are responsible to either choose for, or against, God.

Just like the angels did. That is what it comes down to.

The Cross cleared the way for that to happen.

grace and peace ......................

 

[Eleanor]

Adam's sin is not imputed to us in the same way as our sins are imputed to Christ and His righteousness is imputed to us. Adam's sin is imputed to us in the sense that it is through Adam that we all sin.

However, that is not what imputation means. It means that we are accounted guilty of Adam's sin.

For inheritance and imputation are two different things.
We inherit our sinful nature from Adam, but we do not inherit Adam's sin (Eze 18:20), his sin is imputed to us, accounted to us (Ro 5:12-14), as righteousness is imputed/accounted to us through faith (Ro 4:1-11).
In fact, in the imputation of his sin to us, Adam is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputation of righteousness to us (Ro 4:1-11).

How we came to have a nature to sin.

We came to have a nature to sin by inheritance from Adam.
We came to be guilty of Adam's sin by imputation of God (Ro 5:12-14), just as we come to be righteous by imputation of God (Ro 4:1-11).

But we do all actually sin ourselves. The very nature to sin is in us. Is a part of who we are.

Indeed, we are subject to
1) a fallen nature,
2) guilt of Adam's sin,
3) guilt of our own sin.

Makes one appreciate Ro 11:32: "God has bound all men over to (sin) disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

Our actual sins are imputed to Christ in the sense that He bore our sins on the cross to take their penalty. He had no actual sin. And His righteousness is imputed to us in that same sense. We do not have actual perfect righteousness, His is counted as ours.

The NT does not present that as an imputation, but as "bearing" our sin (Heb 9:28, 1 Pe 2:24), as the animal sacrifices bore the sin of the sinner.

 

[prism]

What design?

Just as you mentioned, our being responsible for Adam's sin. Did God design that before Adam sinned?