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Is Immersion required by Scripture when a baptism is performed?

Is immersion required?

  • I don't know.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Interested to know.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Not if it's raining.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    24
Did an angel of the Lord tell you that?

Or, did The Spirit of the Lord tell you that?

You talk about being Accurate?
What are you doing other than confusing everything to avoid facing the Truth!

Here! :coffee::coffee::coffee::coffee::coffee:
GeneZ:

Regardless of who told me that, the substance of what I said is actual and correct. It is altogether logical.
 
What are you talking about an "angel of the Lord?" Said what?

If it were an angel it would say "a" spirit of the Lord."

You got it all wrong!


The eunuch asked Philip, “Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?”
Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.

As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, “Look, here is water.
What can stand in the way of my being baptized?” And he gave orders to stop the chariot.
Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.
When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away,
and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.
GeneZ:

Read verse 39 of the 8th chapter. "And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away..." The Spirit of the Lord, of course, speaks through "an angel of the Lord."
 
Still you have no proof Jesus was totally immersed. How do you know he didn’t kneel and have water poured on him!
A semi-valid point. He did not quite make the case that he claimed to make ... irrefutably. "came straight up" implies as does extra-biblical historic reference to Jewish traditions on purification, but "implies" is not "proves".

I would, personally, offer THIS:

Matthew 3:16
3:16 βαπτισθεὶς δὲ ὁ Ἰησοῦς εὐθὺς ἀνέβη ἀπὸ τοῦ ὕδατος καὶ ἰδοὺ ἠνεῴχθησαν αὐτῷ οἱ οὐρανοί καὶ εἶδεν τὸ πνεῦμα τοῦ θεοῦ καταβαῖνον ὡσεὶ περιστερὰν καὶ ἐρχόμενον ἐπ᾽ αὐτόν

[Matthew 3:13-14, 16 NASB20] 13 Then Jesus arrived from Galilee at the Jordan, [coming] to John to be baptized[G907] by him. 14 But John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I have [the] need to be baptized[G907] by You, and [yet] You are coming to me?" ... 16 After He was baptized[G907], Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove [and] settling on Him,

[G907] βαπτίζω baptízō, bap-tid'-zo; from a derivative of G911; to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet)
[G911] βάπτω báptō, bap'-to; a primary verb; to whelm, i.e. cover wholly with a fluid

That is what the actual word means, so if they meant "pour" they would have used the Greek word for "pour".
 
GeneZ:

Regardless of who told me that, the substance of what I said is actual and correct. It is altogether logical.
Well... show me how, then.

Let us all know how it was logical.
 
GeneZ:

Read verse 39 of the 8th chapter. "And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away..." The Spirit of the Lord, of course, speaks through "an angel of the Lord."
Scott...

I believe its almost time to stop trying to reason with you....

Ignore is one option I may take.
 
Jewish baptism/purification is not a Christian baptism

Still you have no proof Jesus was totally immersed. How do you know he didn’t kneel and have water poured on him!

Where or why does holy water come into this?
I think you know that it was total immersion till many centuries later when the corruption came into the church in the "Great Apostasy" from Rome as Paul laid out in 2 Thessalonians 2

The Great Apostasy​

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of [b]sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the [d]mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only [e]He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Its well documented in history and even they admit it, as to the baptistries in the churches and you find them even today as we see..
"Among the ruins of early Christian structures, and also in ancient churches still in use, the history of Christian baptism can be traced. Paintings in catacombs and churches, mosaics on floors, walls, and ceilings, sculptured reliefs, and drawings in ancient New Testament manuscripts add details to this history, as well as raising interesting questions that need further investigation.

The record left by these various witnesses overwhelmingly testifies to immersion as the normal mode of baptism in the Christian church during the first ten to fourteen centuries. 1 This is in addition to the evidence found throughout the writings of the church fathers that immersion was the early church's common mode of baptism.

Most students of church history are acquainted with the early written record about baptism, but what do the mosaics, the mortar, the brick, and the paint say?

For some time scholarly circles have been discussing the origin of Christian baptism. Some see its origins in the mystery cults that flourished during the first century A.D. Actually, it is not necessary to go beyond the religious heritage in which Christianity has its roots—the religion of Israel.

Here we find baptism by immersion already in existence. Gentiles who espoused Judaism were required to enter its fold by circumcision, baptism, and the offering of a sacrifice. This article cannot discuss the beginnings of proselyte baptism in Judaism, but the fact that the apostle Paul reflects rabbinic argumentation for proselyte baptism in one of his early epistles (1 Cor. 10:2: "And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea") would seem to indicate that this practice was in existence at the time of the birth of the Christian church. A Gentile convert to Judaism was required to undergo immersion. While he stood in the water, two scholars nearby read some of the lighter and some of the heavier requirements of the Law. Then at the proper time he immersed him self. 2

It is generally agreed that immersion was practiced at Qumran. Matthew Black envisions a candidate for acceptance into the community being baptized in full view of the assembled members in an area that forms a natural amphitheater. Not only were the baptistries at Qumran used for ritual purifications throughout the year, but the entire community renewed its covenant by entering the baptismal waters in the order of their rank and status at the time of a ' 'general convention" of the sect, at which time the neophytes were also baptized. 3

Because fresh water was scarce at Qumran, a number of large cisterns were built to collect and store water during the rainy season. A few of these cisterns are small and shallow, serving better as baths and baptistries than as storage tanks. One such cistern, located by the northwest entrance to the monastery, lies beside an aqueduct that leads to a large settling tank. The cistern has a series of steps leading down into it, serving the purpose of baptism by immersion very nicely.4

It would seem, therefore, that John the Baptist, and later the disciples of Jesus, simply followed the mode of baptism that was familiar to the people of that day immersion. Indeed, Black says that most Jewish sects in the New Testament period practiced baptismal rites.5

During the active ministry of the apostles, baptisms were performed wherever adequate water could be found in lakes, ponds, streams, rivers, the sea, et cetera. When imperial persecution drove the Christians underground, baptistries were constructed in the catacombs at Rome. The remains of these baptistries stand as the oldest archeological witness to the rite of Christian baptism." https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1981/03/baptism-in-the-early-church

And if you look closely at the verse in Acts 8, you see it clearly..

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

And it wasnt many different baptismal ways with sprinkling or affusions as we have Ephesians 4:5
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Its all there, but as they say, 'a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still', so one must ask for the Holy Spirits guidance for understanding..
 
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I think you know that it was total immersion till many centuries later when the corruption came into the church in the "Great Apostasy" from Rome as Paul laid out in 2 Thessalonians 2

The Great Apostasy​

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of [b]sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the [d]mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only [e]He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Its well documented in history and even they admit it, as to the baptistries in the churches and you find them even today as we see..
"Among the ruins of early Christian structures, and also in ancient churches still in use, the history of Christian baptism can be traced. Paintings in catacombs and churches, mosaics on floors, walls, and ceilings, sculptured reliefs, and drawings in ancient New Testament manuscripts add details to this history, as well as raising interesting questions that need further investigation.

The record left by these various witnesses overwhelmingly testifies to immersion as the normal mode of baptism in the Christian church during the first ten to fourteen centuries. 1 This is in addition to the evidence found throughout the writings of the church fathers that immersion was the early church's common mode of baptism.

Most students of church history are acquainted with the early written record about baptism, but what do the mosaics, the mortar, the brick, and the paint say?

For some time scholarly circles have been discussing the origin of Christian baptism. Some see its origins in the mystery cults that flourished during the first century A.D. Actually, it is not necessary to go beyond the religious heritage in which Christianity has its roots—the religion of Israel.

Here we find baptism by immersion already in existence. Gentiles who espoused Judaism were required to enter its fold by circumcision, baptism, and the offering of a sacrifice. This article cannot discuss the beginnings of proselyte baptism in Judaism, but the fact that the apostle Paul reflects rabbinic argumentation for proselyte baptism in one of his early epistles (1 Cor. 10:2: "And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea") would seem to indicate that this practice was in existence at the time of the birth of the Christian church. A Gentile convert to Judaism was required to undergo immersion. While he stood in the water, two scholars nearby read some of the lighter and some of the heavier requirements of the Law. Then at the proper time he immersed him self. 2

It is generally agreed that immersion was practiced at Qumran. Matthew Black envisions a candidate for acceptance into the community being baptized in full view of the assembled members in an area that forms a natural amphitheater. Not only were the baptistries at Qumran used for ritual purifications throughout the year, but the entire community renewed its covenant by entering the baptismal waters in the order of their rank and status at the time of a ' 'general convention" of the sect, at which time the neophytes were also baptized. 3

Because fresh water was scarce at Qumran, a number of large cisterns were built to collect and store water during the rainy season. A few of these cisterns are small and shallow, serving better as baths and baptistries than as storage tanks. One such cistern, located by the northwest entrance to the monastery, lies beside an aqueduct that leads to a large settling tank. The cistern has a series of steps leading down into it, serving the purpose of baptism by immersion very nicely.4

It would seem, therefore, that John the Baptist, and later the disciples of Jesus, simply followed the mode of baptism that was familiar to the people of that day immersion. Indeed, Black says that most Jewish sects in the New Testament period practiced baptismal rites.5

During the active ministry of the apostles, baptisms were performed wherever adequate water could be found in lakes, ponds, streams, rivers, the sea, et cetera. When imperial persecution drove the Christians underground, baptistries were constructed in the catacombs at Rome. The remains of these baptistries stand as the oldest archeological witness to the rite of Christian baptism." https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1981/03/baptism-in-the-early-church

And if you look closely at the verse in Acts 8, you see it clearly..

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Its all there, but as they say, 'a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still', so one must ask for the Holy Spirits guidance for understanding..
I assume you know by now I am Paedobaptism

 
I assume you know by now I am Paedobaptism

I am not familiar with that word, but it appears to be Infant Baptism, maybe as to not derail this thread we can start one to discuss that..
 
So to you, wetting the top of a baby makes it "Born again"?? Or do you think that it only "Cleanses Original sin"???
No Bob, I do not believe in baptismal regeneration.

I thought you knew that. :unsure:
 
I am not familiar with that word, but it appears to be Infant Baptism, maybe as to not derail this thread we can start one to discuss that..
Just a 30 second diversion. “Paedo” does indeed mean “child”, so Paedobaptism is literally “child baptism”. The opposite is usually called Credobaptism (from “credo” meaning “I believe”). While Credobaptism is a LITERAL description of the theological position (only those claiming “I believe” should be baptized), Paedobaptism is a bit of a distortion of their beliefs. While they do perform baptism of infants, that is not the CORE of what they believe. They really believe in “Family baptism” … that whole families should be baptized into the New Covenant Community.

The differences are real, but they are not sinister or “unbiblical” (for either side). They grow from very different starting positions about what baptism is and what it is for.
 
What do you mean by that term?
How does it work?


....
Roman Catholics and COC practice this false doctrine. They believe you are born again (regenerated) when baptized. Or, you must be baptized to be born from above.
 
Roman Catholics and COC practice this false doctrine. They believe you are born again (regenerated) when baptized. Or, you must be baptized to be born from above.
Then... you were referring to the Spirit's baptism?
 
Then... you were referring to the Spirit's baptism?
I'm not exactly sure of your beliefs on this bud, so I cant say for sure.
 
I'm not exactly sure of your beliefs on this bud, so I cant say for sure.

Until I was shown, I was confused about Jesus saying we must be born of water and the Spirit.

I used to think that meant we had to be water baptized for the Spirit to beget our human spirit.

It did not seem right, but I had no other recourse.

Then I was shown by a pastor that Jesus was referring to two types of birth when speaking of "born of water and the Spirit."

And, having witnessed to a pregnant woman breaking water, it all made sense.

The pastor said first we must be born physically = mother broke water. Physical birth.

Then born again, by the Spirit begetting our human spirit causing regeneration.

That suddenly clicked into place. It made sense.


grace and peace ..........
 
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