Do you believe you need to be baptised (immersed) to be saved?

[Dave_Regenerated]

Hi 3R,

Totally priceless... Thank you, thank you thank you.....One you should take the time to write out for your grandkids to read someday. Or copy this to a doc and print it.

I wonder since he moved if he still has a swimming pool? You know who I mean... I think you once went to church together or do I have the wrong people ???? .... but he also offered to baptise me and my mom years ago

Maybe he would like to do a group baptism of lets say 2 ??????

When were you born again? You are saying you have no assurance of being saved. If you were born again and you don't even know that, I would question it.

 

[3 Resurrections]

When were you born again? You are saying you have no assurance of being saved. If you were born again and you don't even know that, I would question it.

Nah, Rella here is definitely a sheep. She's just been fed so many alternating opinions from people who can't agree on what baptism accomplishes - or doesn't - that this has created some angst for her on whether she has crossed every "T" and dotted every "I".

It reminds me a little bit of the case of a very old woman in the last SB church I attended. This poor elderly lady was blind and approaching her final days, but she was not certain herself of whether she had been correctly baptized or not. The pastor's reassurances that she did not need to repeat this fell on deaf ears. She insisted. So, with her being bent over double with arthritis and blind as a bat, two elders carefully lifted her into the baptismal pool in a small wooden chair and leaned her gently over face first into the water. Technically not all of her got wet, but it did set her mind at ease that she had made every effort to make this right in her last days. If Christ were a Southerner standing by and watching this, He would have said with all tenderness, "Well, bless your heart darlin'".

 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Do you live near James White?

I had to google to see who that was. He lives in Phoenix, and so do I, so... yes? It's kind of relative. It takes 90 minutes to drive from one end of Phoenix to the other. It's a very spread-out city.

 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

You've taken my statement, taken out of context, inserted my statement into your context and then used you misguided context to denigrate my statement. Stick to the CONTEXT. The context is Galatians 5 and not the word "faith" being replaced by "peanut butter".

I think of it more like - I've taken your logic, and applied it elsewhere to show that it is actually illogical bordering on ridiculous.

-Jarrod

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

I had to google to see who that was. He lives in Phoenix, and so do I, so... yes? It's kind of relative. It takes 90 minutes to drive from one end of Phoenix to the other. It's a very spread-out city.

It seems pretty impossible to me that you are a Christian and don't know who James White is. I'm sorry, I just don't buy it. But I guess it could be better in general.

 

[Andia]

Rella, do you have a fear of water, or having your head go under water? Is that why you're reluctant to be immersed? Or do you just not want to get the third degree from a pastor/preacher, and feel pressured to join their church? It's obvious this has caused you a great deal of angst for quite a while and I feel like you won't feel settled until you are immersed.
This may sound like an odd suggestion, but if privacy is a concern, rent a house for a day that has a swimming pool. My parents did this one year for their anniversary - rented a large house in town that had a pool, so the grandkids could swim and keep busy. Then get a cousin, friend, neighbor, lawn boy, lol, to baptize you! There'd be no strings attached, no jumping through hoops, signing a specific church's statement of faith or whatever.
OK, I just looked it up, and you can actually rent private swimming pools by the hour. I may do that myself sometime! That sounds fun.

 

[3 Resurrections]

wonder since he moved if he still has a swimming pool? You know who I mean... I think you once went to church together or do I have the wrong people ???? .... but he also offered to baptise me and my mom years ago

Maybe he would like to do a group baptism of lets say 2 ??????

That offer years back for you and your mom to use his pool for a baptism if you could make it down south sounds very much like the considerate RB that I once shared a church membership with. I don't remember if his new home has a pool or not from the pictures he showed us on our last shared forum.

 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

It seems pretty impossible to me that you are a Christian and don't know who James White is. I'm sorry, I just don't buy it. But I guess it could be better in general.

Well... I'm not very interested in modern pastors/authors. What I read is like early church fathers, ancient rabbis, and archaeological reports.

 

[Andia]

Nah, Rella here is definitely a sheep. She's just been fed so many alternating opinions from people who can't agree on what baptism accomplishes - or doesn't - that this has created some angst for her on whether she has crossed every "T" and dotted every "I".

It reminds me a little bit of the case of a very old woman in the last SB church I attended. This poor elderly lady was blind and approaching her final days, but she was not certain herself of whether she had been correctly baptized or not. The pastor's reassurances that she did not need to repeat this fell on deaf ears. She insisted. So, with her being bent over double with arthritis and blind as a bat, two elders carefully lifted her into the baptismal pool in a small wooden chair and leaned her gently over face first into the water. Technically not all of her got wet, but it did set her mind at ease that she had made every effort to make this right in her last days. If Christ were a Southerner standing by and watching this, He would have said with all tenderness, "Well, bless your heart darlin'".

My maternal grandfather (never met him, he divorced my grandmother while she was pregnant with my mother) was baptized on his deathbed. His elderly sisters had an ambulance take him from his deathbed in a nursing home to a local church where they baptized/immersed him. I bet that was a sight to see. I can't even imagine how they did that. He died a few days later, but at least his family knew he'd been baptized.

 

[Andia]

It seems pretty impossible to me that you are a Christian and don't know who James White is. I'm sorry, I just don't buy it. But I guess it could be better in general.

Add me to the list of people who never heard of this James White.

 

[Red Baker]

Hi 3R,

Totally priceless... Thank you, thank you thank you.....One you should take the time to write out for your grandkids to read someday. Or copy this to a doc and print it.

I wonder since he moved if he still has a swimming pool? You know who I mean... I think you once went to church together or do I have the wrong people ???? .... but he also offered to baptise me and my mom years ago

Maybe he would like to do a group baptism of lets say 2 ??????

Rella, you are thinking of me, but that was not me! You have the wrong guy! Swimming pool is history~to old to care for one.

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

That is so weird. Why would anybody think that baptism is related to Jesus smoking a pipe?

Dave_Regenerated:

You remarked, “That is so weird. Why would anybody think that baptism is related to Jesus smoking a pipe?”

I didn’t mean to upset you with my response to the question on “baptism’s” results. My statement was only an innocent expression. Jesus Himself was humorous occasionally, such as when He called King Herod a “fox.” Perhaps God was a little humorous when he enabled a donkey to speak with a human voice (Num. 22:22-34).

Anyway, I suggest you address the core components of my response. Have a good day.​

 

[Rella]

When were you born again? You are saying you have no assurance of being saved. If you were born again and you don't even know that, I would question it.

Dave_Regenerated,

Up until about the year 2012 I was believing in my salvation because of what I had believe from my own church.

Who would challenge a church that was main stream from its start in the early 1600s and grew from there. It was so ingrained in my family
history because I had a family member ... way back... who was a Vicar in the Church of England and left that church... OVER A BAPTISM ARGUMENT.. went to Scotland, became a Presby minister.... made his way over here to New England and Ultimately down to
Virginia where he built his own Presbyterian church.

I was secure in my personal salvation up unti in around 2012 and I joined a religious forum and got my eyes opened wide.

I had no idea that Protestants disagreed so much with each other.

And it was very true that 13 of those members... if not blatantly telling me , they ever so subtly questioned my salvation because
if I was not immersed... I was not saved because according to them Baptism saves.

NOW... I took some time this afternoon to write out what I had believed up until my salvation was questioned.

And I have been left with a less than satisfactory opinion of what my church still teaches.... NO, I have not found another
that seems more spot on.... So I will continue to seek my education from this forum and a couple of others.. and the Holy Bible
that for whatever reason I see different things in there then many will.

This is what I had always been taught, told and believed.

Baptism in the Presbyterian church is a sacrament.

In the Presbyterian church sacraments are Holy practices of the church that are unique means of receiving God's grace.

The original definition of "sacrament" for Christians held that these were practices initiated by Christ himself.

The sacrament of baptism:​

Baptism, in the Presbyterian tradition, is a sign and seal of God’s gift of salvation ~of the saving work that has already been done for us in Jesus Christ.

Through baptism, we respond to God’s gracious gift, offering our lives to God in service and entering into covenant relationship with God as members of the body of Christ.

Ordinarily, the sacrament of baptism (baptism with water and in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit) takes place at the time of profession of faith, whether by oneself (as in the case of adult or believer’s baptism) or by one’s parents/guardians (as in infant baptism). Either way, it is God who chooses, calls and claims us, long before we are able to articulate our faith on our own. ( I need to interject that while the church preaches this way.... I still am not solidly Calvin... AND THAT IS BECAUSE OF MY FORUM EDUCATIONS..TYVM)

Parents who desire the sacrament of baptism for their children or for themselves shall make vows that
(a) profess their faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior,
(b) renounce evil and affirm their reliance on God’s grace,
(c) declare their intention to participate actively and responsibly in the worship and mission of the church,
(d) declare their intention to provide for the Christian nurture of their child. The congregation shall
(e) profess its faith, using the Apostles’ Creed,
(f) voice its support of the baptized,
(g) express its willingness to take responsibility for the nurture of those baptized.

Also an Elder can lead the congregation in these professions and affirmations.

The actual Baptising is the application of water to an adult, child or infant by an ordained minister in the presence of a church congregation. Presbyterian churches follow some common practices for baptism, including the belief that baptism by immersion is not necessary.

And~Baptism is received only once.

Baptism is one of two sacraments practiced by Presbyterians; Communion is the other.

It is believed that baptism is a “seal” to make clear what God has already done – just like sealing a letter with wax, and putting an official seal on it.

No ritual with human hands will change the mind of God, but this ritual signifies that this person – whether infant or adult – belongs to God, who has already claimed him or her. Baptism is a very important ritual for Presbyterians, bestowing a life-long identity on the believer, and for us its most important significance is for the parents and the congregation – who promise in baptism to raise that child according to the Christian faith.

When baptised as a baby, or young child, it is expected for one to continue in the growth by attending confirmation classes
that are held around the age of 13 and older. (I attended mine at 12)

You cannot join the Presbyterian church, if you are in that age group without attending the classes, and it is not unti;
you complete the classes and join the church... are confirmed... that you can partake of your first Holy Communion.

Holy communion is the 2nd sacrament recognized by the presbyterians.

Confirmation is not a sacrament for Presbyterians, but it’s extremely important in our understanding of baptism. Again, We baptize infants to show that God reaches toward us in love, before we have any ability in ourselves to choose...

That’s the bedrock concept of Presbyterianism: God loves us despite any virtue of our own.

God chooses us, not the other way around…and this has radical implications! But that doesn’t mean that we don’t have choice…. It’s often said that Presbyterians don’t believe in free will That is not so...we do!

But the time when a child is able to choose through the ritual of confirmation, (again around age 13) And is taught about the Christian faith, given a mentor to help him or her understand it, it is then they are faced with whether to embrace the faith into which he or she has been baptized. .... or not. This is taken very seriously among the clergy as well as in the congregation.

It is that our Confirmation is a reaffirmation of our baptismal vows. For those of us who are baptized as children or infants, it is our parents who initially accept the vows on our behalf. Confirmation then becomes our opportunity to personally reaffirm those baptismal vows and claim the grace offered by Christ in baptism.

IOW Confirmation is the beginning of a personal lifelong journey.

Confirmation is professing of our faith.

____________________________________________________________

And I am stopping now because this will be falling on a lot of deaf ears.... But there you have what I had believed from the age I could understand anything, until 2012ish... about 6 decades.

 

[Rella]

Rella, do you have a fear of water, or having your head go under water? Is that why you're reluctant to be immersed? Or do you just not want to get the third degree from a pastor/preacher, and feel pressured to join their church? It's obvious this has caused you a great deal of angst for quite a while and I feel like you won't feel settled until you are immersed.
This may sound like an odd suggestion, but if privacy is a concern, rent a house for a day that has a swimming pool. My parents did this one year for their anniversary - rented a large house in town that had a pool, so the grandkids could swim and keep busy. Then get a cousin, friend, neighbor, lawn boy, lol, to baptize you! There'd be no strings attached, no jumping through hoops, signing a specific church's statement of faith or whatever.
OK, I just looked it up, and you can actually rent private swimming pools by the hour. I may do that myself sometime! That sounds fun.

There is a place near here about an hour a way that you can rent time in a hot tub indoors....

But I have been brainwashed it need to be a minister.

 

[fastfredy0]

I think of it more like - I've taken your logic, and applied it elsewhere to show that it is actually illogical bordering on ridiculous.

You can take a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. So be it.

 

[Rella]

I thank you all for your opinions.

For my own well being as long as I have to live in this world, I believe I shall follow the majority of those in the poll.

But before leaving this subject... I have started a new thread on James White so as to not divert this one in a different direction.

https://christcentered.community.forum/forums/baptism.56/

 

[Wordsmith]

Many folks hang their hats on Mark 16:16 which says....

16 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned....

believing baptism is absolutely necessary. No excuses.

However, What this verse does not say is it does not say but he who has disbelieved and has NOT been baptised shall be condemned.

What say you?

I know a man who was baptised... immersed... with a group in his teens. He is now 81.

He will tell you to this day he has no idea why he was or went with the group.

So there ARE those who can be baptised for whatever reason and curiosity begs the question

I guess we can throw out any death bed conversions if baptism is an absolute requirement.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Paul didn't mention baptism here.

I believe you will find most salvation passages refer to believing not so much referring to baptism.

Yes baptism is an important outward demonstration of the inward commitment but to absolutely say it a hard and fast requirement to be saved IMHO is not a scriptural realty.

Too often you see people who put their faith in the baptism ceremony and not Christ, saying "I was baptized as a child all done here I am now saved".

 

[David1701]

Premise 1: we are not saved by works (multiple verses)
Premise 2: water baptism is a work (something you do to achieve a purpose)
Conclusion: you don't have to be water baptized to be saved

Aside: Mark 16:16 not found in older manuscripts

Yes, apart from your aside, which is, at best, misleading.

Mark 16:9-20 is found in almost all Greek manuscripts that contain Mark 16, with slight variations (many hundreds of manuscripts). There are only THREE with Mark 16 that do not contain verses 9-20 - Vaticanus, Sinaiticus and another, very minor, manuscript. Vaticanus and Sinaiticus are so full of errors (some outrageous) that they disagree with each other more than 3,000 times, in the gospels alone. They are also full of attempted corrections (especially Sinaiticus, by up to 15 different correctors).

They probably survived so long (if they are really that old - Erasmus thought that Vaticanus was made some time after 1430) precisely because they are so full of errors and omissions (as well as being in the arid climate of Egypt - a hotbed of heresy, in the early centuries), so they were not used (except for attempted corrections) and did not wear out. There are no known copies that have been made from Sinaiticus...

The sound manuscripts were well used, wore out, were copied and destroyed and so it went on. This means that the sound manuscripts will almost all be more recent ones and will agree with the majority.

Another factor is that there was something that has been called "The Great Transliteration", in the 9th and 10th Centuries A.D.. The best ancient Uncial (capital letters) manuscripts were copied to cursives (small letters), which means that the majority of extant manuscripts are direct copies of very ancient ones.

Here is the NKJV marginal note re. Mark 16:9-20:

• Mark 16:9-20 Vv. 9-20 are bracketed in NU as not in the original text. They are lacking in Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus, although nearly all other mss. of Mark contain them.

There is also no theological problem with Mark 16:16, since it does not mean that one has to get baptised, in order to be saved; rather, it means that a born again person will get baptised (since born again people want to please the Lord).

 

[fastfredy0]

Yes, apart from your aside, which is, at best, misleading.

Mark 16:9-20 is found in almost all Greek manuscripts that contain Mark 16, with slight variations (many hundreds of manuscripts). There are only THREE with Mark 16 that do not contain verses 9-20 - Vaticanus, Sinaiticus and another, very minor, manuscript. Vaticanus and Sinaiticus are so full of errors (some outrageous) that they disagree with each other more than 3,000 times, in the gospels alone. They are also full of attempted corrections (especially Sinaiticus, by up to 15 different correctors).

Hmmm, I didn't realize those details. I stand corrected. Thanks

 

[Red Baker]

Do you believe you need to be baptised to be saved?​

Yes, and no, would be the correct answers.

No, as far as being saved from sin and condemnation.

Yes, as far a having a fuller knowledge of Jesus' gospel. You must accept these two truths if you are a diligent student of the word of God.

Mark 16: 15,17~"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

The salvation under consideration is a practical salvation of having a full ( or, fuller ) knowledge of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Without water baptism one will be lacking in this practical salvation available in hearing, believing, and being baptized into the faith/religion of Jesus Christ.

Water baptism is not the means of of the forgiveness of one's sins~only the blood of Christ (or his life, death, and resurrection) is the only means of God being just and the justifier of the sinner, who truly believes in Jesus Christ.

In Mark 16:15,16 the one that is condemned are ones that does not believe. The ones that is saved from sin and condemnation are believers, yet among them there is a difference~some saved with a clearer more fuller understanding of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Example would help: OT saints were saved from sins and the condemnation of God's law, yet they did not possess the understanding of NT believers where the gospel shines so much brighter than it did in the OT~and where the ordinance of water baptism is required if all possible.

Water Baptism shows forth a few important truths taught in the gospel of Jesus Christ, which the OT saints did not enjoy. Even under the NT, God has regenerated children of God scattered through this world~some of which may have never been baptized, thereby do not enjoy the salvation that is mentioned in Mark 16:16. Save/saved/salvation is used in at least five different senses in the scriptures and we must rightly divide them before we can understand some passages of scriptures, Mark 16:16 is one of those scriptures.