Christian Baptism, does it include infants?

[Alive]

Here is the thing readers. It is impossible for the natural man (mind) to understand the things of the Spirit.
1Cor. 2:14 (NAS20S) But a natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
John 14:26 (NAS20S) “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things,

A man can study scripture all of his life and be able to quote the whole bible and be familiar with the writings and commentary of the best of scholars and yet remain carnal.

Only the Lord by the Holy Spirit can shed Light on the word and make it real---spiritual. Each of us, who are 'In Christ' of the Father need to come to grips with this and only the Lord's dealing in us gets us to that place. That place where we simply 'know' we can do "no thing" without Him. Like a little child. Great men with much natural ability and talent struggle with this...they are self-sufficient or think they are.
Something in them needs to be 'broken'. They need to become weak.
This is the opposite of how and what the natural man and the world thinks and operates. Only the Lord can do this. It is His Grace and Chosing.
Each of the Elect are different--this is true--in the sense that some will be granted more than others--for His Purpose.

These are a few verses dealing with these things--there is much more. They speak to a principle. A 'law' actually. The 'Law' of the Spirit of Life".
Rom. 8:2 (NAS20S) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

From this point forward anything derived of any value comes through and by the Reality of the Realm of the Spirit. We became Alive where we were dead. All of the things from the realm of the dead are left behind and we embrace the New, as He provides Grace working in us.

Rom. 8:5 (NAS20S) For those who are in accord with the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are in accord with the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
1Cor. 2:10 (NAS20S) For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 11 For who among people knows the thoughts of a person except the spirit of the person that is in him? So also the thoughts of God no one knows, except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God. 13 We also speak these things, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
1Cor. 2:14 (NAS20S) But a natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But the one who is spiritual discerns all things, yet he himself is discerned by no one. 16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[makesends]

That is true. But that is not the way I saw the poster addressing the issue of the new birth in response to @David1701 's post. I could be mistaken---oh LOL----but to me, the analogy fell apart at the outset, by bringing what is learning after the new birth into the equation.

I hear ya. Agreed

 

[Carbon]

Some things change immediately.

As far as changing goes, I agree. But the new knowing is there. The changes that take place becuase of what God does or shows us, may ne be immediate.

 

[Carbon]

Once you are born again, you are right that you will know it. But it is not up to you to know when it happened.

Agreed.

 

[CrowCross]

We are set apart, not by the fact that we never sin, but by the fact that sin is no longer our governor.

Unfortunately in many circumstances "sin" is still our governor. That is as Christians we still sin.

I think it leans more towards our sins will not be counted against us...as we have been washed clean by the blood of Christ.

Keeping in mind this doesn't give Christians a license to sin.

 

[CrowCross]

Once you are born again, you are right that you will know it. But it is not up to you to know when it happened. I did not know when it happened. My mother said it was when I was 5 years old, but I don't remember it. All I know about it is, that, (according to my mother, anyway), I did indeed change my behavior (to some degree).

I'm curious how you would assess the 'Second-Work-Of-Grace' testimonies.

I can remember watching the "Silent Scream" sitting in my living room by myself and getting angry at how they were killing the babies in the womb. I now see it as a Holy Spirit inspired righteous anger and I believe it was prior to me coming forward and "accepting Christ".

 

[Carbon]

As far as changing goes, I agree. But the new knowing is there. The changes that take plce becuase of what God does or shows us, may ne be immediate.

If anyone is interesed in this subject with its own thread: https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/something-like-scales-fell-from-his-eyes.2151/

 

[Alive]

After all of the speaking by Job's three friends of knowledge, wisdom and understanding--here is the end of the matter.

Job 42:1 (NAS20S) Then Job answered the LORD and said,
2 “I know that You can do all things, And that no plan is impossible for You.
3 ‘Who is this who conceals advice without knowledge?’ Therefore I have declared that which I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I do not know.
4 ‘Please listen, and I will speak; I will ask You, and You instruct me.’
5 “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear; But now my eye sees You;
6 Therefore I retract, And I repent, sitting on dust and ashes.”

Job 42:7 (NAS20S) It came about after the LORD had spoken these words to Job, that the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends, because you have not spoken of Me what is trustworthy, as My servant Job has.

 

[Arial]

As far as changing goes, I agree. But the new knowing is there. The changes that take plce becuase of what God does or shows us, may ne be immediate.

Agree.The knowing is part of the change. But that is an impossible (I think) thing to describe. It is not a knowing of acquired knowledge on the things of God which only comes over time. More knowing deep inside us that we are changed from what we were before to something new and real and true. We know it and it begins to manifest outwardly. It is what little knowledge we do have, penetrating our heart.

 

[David1701]

Once you are born again, you are right that you will know it. But it is not up to you to know when it happened. I did not know when it happened. My mother said it was when I was 5 years old, but I don't remember it. All I know about it is, that, (according to my mother, anyway), I did indeed change my behavior (to some degree).

I'm curious how you would assess the 'Second-Work-Of-Grace' testimonies.

Darkness to light is not something that can happen without you knowing about it. You know it when it happens, because the drastic change inside you is immediate.

Are you referring to the Pentecostal/Charismatic "baptism in the Holy Spirit" teaching; or the Wesleyan "second blessing"; or something else?

 

[CrowCross]

Agree.The knowing is part of the change. But that is an impossible (I think) thing to describe. It is not a knowing of acquired knowledge on the things of God which only comes over time. More knowing deep inside us that we are changed from what we were before to something new and real and true. We know it and it begins to manifest outwardly. It is what little knowledge we do have, penetrating our heart.

I think understanding and knowing is part of our maturing and sanctification.

 

[Carbon]

Darkness to light is not something that can happen without you knowing about it.

Amen!

You know it when it happens, because the drastic change inside you is immediate.

Amen!

 

[Arial]

I think understanding and knowing is part of our maturing and sanctification.

Yes, if "knowing" is applied to knowledge gained. But there is also a knowing within us that is associated with the moment of being born again.

 

[David1701]

David, you dear sir, are 100% wrong.

John 3:3​

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Nicodemus is the classic example of what I'm saying! The leader of the Jew did not even know what it meant to be born again, yet, he was showing perfect evidence of one which had been born again!

This is, again, complete nonsense! Nicodemus needed to be born again, which is why Jesus spoke to him about it. He was showing the lack of understanding of spiritual things that goes with spiritual blindness, so Jesus explained it to him. Nicodemus kept talking about natural things, with no spiritual insight whatever. This is the condition of the natural (i.e. unregenerate/not born again) man (1 Cor. 2:14).

His child like confession in verse two is as good of a confession as any man on this forum or in any church throughout thsi world! His confession so much different from the other Pharisees, who accused Christ of doing miracles through the power of the prince of the devils. He like John the Baptist showed forth the fruits of the Spirit, though ignorance of much truths.

John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb; but, Nicodemus was told that "you must be born again".

David, how in the world does anyone know what is happening during the new birth? That is impossible. Man is dead in trespasses and sin. The new birth is like the wind that bloweth, totally invisible. It comes and goes when it pleaseth, and works where it pleaseth, without any permission. Man is 100% passive, God alone is the only active person working! He creates a new man within us after the image of Jesus Christ.

You don't need to know the correct nomenclature, to know that the light has been switched on inside you, that Jesus took your sins and punishment on the cross, that you are forgiven and that you now love Jesus and want to follow him. This is what happens when one is born of God; and it happens immediately.

Have you ever experienced it?

The analogy I used above when a child is born into this world, is no different concerning our spiritual birth. What does a child know, concerning his birth into this world, without someone revealing to them where they were born, even who where their parents. We only know about the new birth by scriptures. All truths we have learned from the scriptures, one being the doctrine of the new birth. Even this truth took a few years to fully understand perfectly, bits and pieces are revealed slowly to all of us.

You don't need to know the right words to know that you have new life inside you and have been forgiven because Jesus died for you.

 

[Eleanor]

Unfortunately in many circumstances "sin" is still our governor. That is as Christians we still sin.

Nope. . .if you don't have a new attitude and disposition regarding sin, you are not born again.

I think it leans more towards our sins will not be counted against us...as we have been washed clean by the blood of Christ.

Keeping in mind this doesn't give Christians a license to sin.

 

[Eleanor]

Some things change immediately. Not all things---that is the journey we embark upon. With me, and with others who have given their testimony, and I suspect all, even if it is still not recognized for what it was; it was a 180 as @David1701 described. My entire world view changed during the time I went to sleep and the time I woke up in the morning. And my attitude towards God changed from believing in his existence to knowing Him as the holder of all truth and from being God to being my God.
I became thirsty for none but the living water---though I did not know of such a thing as living water.

I maintain that thirst for the word of God is the quintessential sign of the new birth, like a new born craving spiritual milk (1 Pe 2:2), and have observed that fact many times, including in my own new birth.

Were there things leading up to that? There always are. From before I was born and was yet being formed in my mother's womb, from my first angry squall at that first abrupt change (even though I kicked and tormented my mother to be set free until she said "I am having this baby today!" two weeks before my due date)every step was leading (by God) towards the new birth in Christ.

 

[JIM]

Here is the thing readers. It is impossible for the natural man (mind) to understand the things of the Spirit.
1Cor. 2:14 (NAS20S) But a natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

That chapter in 1 Corinthians is terribly misunderstood by so many, especially Calvinists.

John 14:26 (NAS20S) “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things,

Nothing in that or anything else says that the Holy Spirit must first regenerate one before doing all of that.

A man can study scripture all of his life and be able to quote the whole bible and be familiar with the writings and commentary of the best of scholars and yet remain carnal.

That is true. That just says, that after doing all of that, the man doesn't believe what the Bible says and does not believe in God.

And a man can read the word of God, listen to someone preaching the word, come to believe, repent and be baptized and be no longer carnal.

Only the Lord by the Holy Spirit can shed Light on the word and make it real---spiritual.

And that can happen in studying scripture and believing what it says.

 

[CrowCross]

Yes, if "knowing" is applied to knowledge gained. But there is also a knowing within us that is associated with the moment of being born again.

There are also many who "know they are born again"....but aren't.

 

[Arial]

There are also many who "know they are born again"....but aren't.

Technically no one knows what they know but themselves. There are many who say they are born again who aren't. Or those who think they are because they said the "asked for" prayer, who aren't. If the belief is not in their heart, neither is the knowing. If the knowing is not a result of being born again, it isn't knowing.That is what I mean by it can't be explained.

Being born again is something that really happens to a person internally. And it is done by God and God alone.

Carbon started a thread on this subject which is where this conversation should probably continue, as this one is about infant baptism.

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/something-like-scales-fell-from-his-eyes.2151/post-94268

 

[Mr GLee]

Once you are born again, you are right that you will know it. But it is not up to you to know when it happened. I did not know when it happened. My mother said it was when I was 5 years old, but I don't remember it. All I know about it is, that, (according to my mother, anyway), I did indeed change my behavior (to some degree).

I'm curious how you would assess the 'Second-Work-Of-Grace' testimonies.

Amen no Second-Work-Of-Grace'.... I got wet. .

.Baptism a ceremonial law (a shadow)that began in the Old testament priesthood of believers .A gospel sign to the unbelieving world .Not as sign unto themselves .Aarons two sons found out the hard way .Consumed by the fiery judgment of Christ the husband. . for adding to the living words of Christ