Christian Baptism, does it include infants?

[makesends]

Here is the thing readers. It is impossible for the natural man (mind) to understand the things of the Spirit.
1Cor. 2:14 (NAS20S) But a natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
John 14:26 (NAS20S) “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things,

A man can study scripture all of his life and be able to quote the whole bible and be familiar with the writings and commentary of the best of scholars and yet remain carnal.

Only the Lord by the Holy Spirit can shed Light on the word and make it real---spiritual. Each of us, who are 'In Christ' of the Father need to come to grips with this and only the Lord's dealing in us gets us to that place. That place where we simply 'know' we can do "no thing" without Him. Like a little child. Great men with much natural ability and talent struggle with this...they are self-sufficient or think they are.
Something in them needs to be 'broken'. They need to become weak.
This is the opposite of how and what the natural man and the world thinks and operates. Only the Lord can do this. It is His Grace and Chosing.
Each of the Elect are different--this is true--in the sense that some will be granted more than others--for His Purpose.

These are a few verses dealing with these things--there is much more. They speak to a principle. A 'law' actually. The 'Law' of the Spirit of Life".
Rom. 8:2 (NAS20S) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.

From this point forward anything derived of any value comes through and by the Reality of the Realm of the Spirit. We became Alive where we were dead. All of the things from the realm of the dead are left behind and we embrace the New, as He provides Grace working in us.

Rom. 8:5 (NAS20S) For those who are in accord with the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are in accord with the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
1Cor. 2:10 (NAS20S) For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 11 For who among people knows the thoughts of a person except the spirit of the person that is in him? So also the thoughts of God no one knows, except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God. 13 We also speak these things, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
1Cor. 2:14 (NAS20S) But a natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But the one who is spiritual discerns all things, yet he himself is discerned by no one. 16 For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

Sometimes we believers seem to think the unsaved are, according to the Bible, stupid. Sproul and others decry the abandonment of reason that seems common to modern Christianity, as though logic and reason are not spiritual. While it is true that the secular world has also largely abandoned such assumptions as the acceptance that there are absolutes, and that self-contradictory notions are invalid, it doesn't mean that they are any more stupid than we are. They may well understand spiritual things such as doctrinal frameworks, and even have some valid things to say about them

I say that to say this: We know from reading or hearing 'believers' who have some very deep thoughts, and show a very good understanding of doctrine, and good use of scripture, but they have later demonstrated that they were not of us. ANY of us could be one of them, assuming we are wise and still 'not getting it', as demonstrated by our [at least] inconsistent obedience. ANY of us can decry our disobedience, cry for mercy, beg God for the will to continue in him, and think we have confessed and repented, and God can still say, "I never knew you". ANY of us can fool himself.

Also, both sadly and happily, there are MANY redeemed who do not understand the depth of the Grace by which they are saved; but, be honest —do any of us?

 

[makesends]

Unfortunately in many circumstances "sin" is still our governor. That is as Christians we still sin.

I think it leans more towards our sins will not be counted against us...as we have been washed clean by the blood of Christ.

Keeping in mind this doesn't give Christians a license to sin.

Correct. He who is sinning is a slave to sin.

But it is even more insidious than just that equation. As John Owen put it, "Be killing sin, or sin will be killing you."

 

[makesends]

Darkness to light is not something that can happen without you knowing about it. You know it when it happens, because the drastic change inside you is immediate.

Are you referring to the Pentecostal/Charismatic "baptism in the Holy Spirit" teaching; or the Wesleyan "second blessing"; or something else?

The Wesleyan "second blessing", though there are other worldviews that describe similarly, such as the Keswick view on Sanctification.

 

[Alive]

Sometimes we believers seem to think the unsaved are, according to the Bible, stupid. Sproul and others decry the abandonment of reason that seems common to modern Christianity, as though logic and reason are not spiritual. While it is true that the secular world has also largely abandoned such assumptions as the acceptance that there are absolutes, and that self-contradictory notions are invalid, it doesn't mean that they are any more stupid than we are. They may well understand spiritual things such as doctrinal frameworks, and even have some valid things to say about them

I say that to say this: We know from reading or hearing 'believers' who have some very deep thoughts, and show a very good understanding of doctrine, and good use of scripture, but they have later demonstrated that they were not of us. ANY of us could be one of them, assuming we are wise and still 'not getting it', as demonstrated by our [at least] inconsistent obedience. ANY of us can decry our disobedience, cry for mercy, beg God for the will to continue in him, and think we have confessed and repented, and God can still say, "I never knew you". ANY of us can fool himself.

Also, both sadly and happily, there are MANY redeemed who do not understand the depth of the Grace by which they are saved; but, be honest —do any of us?

It seems to me you are using the term ‘spiritually’ incorrectly here.
Perhaps a misunderstanding.

 

[David1701]

The Wesleyan "second blessing", though there are other worldviews that describe similarly, such as the Keswick view on Sanctification.

The Wesleyan "second blessing" (a.k.a. "entire sanctification") is a very dangerous false teaching that has landed thousands (I'm not exaggerating) of Christians in mental hospitals. This was confirmed to me by a Christian Registered Mental Nurse, who told that he'd seen numerous cases in his work.

The problem (apart from it being unscriptural) is that this teaching (a second blessing, allegedly leading to entire sanctification, so that one no longer sins) leads to one of two outcomes, if someone truly believes it: if he is honest, he is riddled with guilt and hopelessness, because he knows that he's not measuring up; if he is dishonest, then he becomes proud and redefines his sins as "temptations" - either one is disastrous for the Christian life.

A very good book about this is "Holiness The False and the True", by H. A. Ironside.

 

[Alive]

The Wesleyan "second blessing" (a.k.a. "entire sanctification") is a very dangerous false teaching that has landed thousands (I'm not exaggerating) of Christians in mental hospitals. This was confirmed to me by a Christian Registered Mental Nurse, who told that he'd seen numerous cases in his work.

The problem (apart from it being unscriptural) is that this teaching (a second blessing, allegedly leading to entire sanctification, so that one no longer sins) leads to one of two outcomes, if someone truly believes it: if he is honest, he is riddled with guilt and hopelessness, because he knows that he's not measuring up; if he is dishonest, then he becomes proud and redefines his sins as "temptations" - either one is disastrous for the Christian life.

A very good book about this is "Holiness The False and the True", by H. A. Ironside.

I saw some of this as well within a certain authoritarian cultish group.
Lots of devestated folks.

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
Sometimes we believers seem to think the unsaved are, according to the Bible, stupid. Sproul and others decry the abandonment of reason that seems common to modern Christianity, as though logic and reason are not spiritual. While it is true that the secular world has also largely abandoned such assumptions as the acceptance that there are absolutes, and that self-contradictory notions are invalid, it doesn't mean that they are any more stupid than we are. They may well understand spiritual things such as doctrinal frameworks, and even have some valid things to say about them

I say that to say this: We know from reading or hearing 'believers' who have some very deep thoughts, and show a very good understanding of doctrine, and good use of scripture, but they have later demonstrated that they were not of us. ANY of us could be one of them, assuming we are wise and still 'not getting it', as demonstrated by our [at least] inconsistent obedience. ANY of us can decry our disobedience, cry for mercy, beg God for the will to continue in him, and think we have confessed and repented, and God can still say, "I never knew you". ANY of us can fool himself.

Also, both sadly and happily, there are MANY redeemed who do not understand the depth of the Grace by which they are saved; but, be honest —do any of us?

It seems to me you are using the term ‘spiritually’ incorrectly here.
Perhaps a misunderstanding.

I assume you mean, in the 1 Corinthians 2:14 mention, (here in the Berean Literal) "But the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to understand them, because spiritually they are discerned." To your comment that I may be using "spiritually" incorrectly, I guess I could say that I have done so purposely, because what to any of us seems spiritually discerned may not be what God is referring to in 1 Corinthians 2:14. I'm just saying that we can fool ourselves, supposing ourselves to be on one side of that question, with "the natural man" on the other side.

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
I'm curious how you would assess the 'Second-Work-Of-Grace' testimonies.

The Wesleyan "second blessing" (a.k.a. "entire sanctification") is a very dangerous false teaching that has landed thousands (I'm not exaggerating) of Christians in mental hospitals. This was confirmed to me by a Christian Registered Mental Nurse, who told that he'd seen numerous cases in his work.

The problem (apart from it being unscriptural) is that this teaching (a second blessing, allegedly leading to entire sanctification, so that one no longer sins) leads to one of two outcomes, if someone truly believes it: if he is honest, he is riddled with guilt and hopelessness, because he knows that he's not measuring up; if he is dishonest, then he becomes proud and redefines his sins as "temptations" - either one is disastrous for the Christian life.

A very good book about this is "Holiness The False and the True", by H. A. Ironside.

Agreed. But I was more after your reaction to the testimonies of those who hold to that view —but I guess you've answered it well enough: Basically, that their testimonies are irrelevant because it is a false notion.

The thought came to me because what I have heard them say, (but yes, in their case it is only because of their experience of what they called that), is very similar to what it sounds like what you posit as necessary concerning regeneration —that one must be aware of it happening when it happens).

 

[Red Baker]

The Wesleyan "second blessing" (a.k.a. "entire sanctification") is a very dangerous false teaching that has landed thousands (I'm not exaggerating) of Christians in mental hospitals. This was confirmed to me by a Christian Registered Mental Nurse, who told that he'd seen numerous cases in his work.

The problem (apart from it being unscriptural) is that this teaching (a second blessing, allegedly leading to entire sanctification, so that one no longer sins) leads to one of two outcomes, if someone truly believes it: if he is honest, he is riddled with guilt and hopelessness, because he knows that he's not measuring up; if he is dishonest, then he becomes proud and redefines his sins as "temptations" - either one is disastrous for the Christian life.

A very good book about this is "Holiness The False and the True", by H. A. Ironside.

William Cowper (1731-1800, pronounced Cooper) was afflicted with severe bouts of depression and haunting despair for virtually all of his life. lived during the time John Wesley preached~who knows this could have been part of his problem. But, I truly do not know.

There is a Fountain Filled with Blood.” The first verse reads:

There is a fountain filled with blood drawn from Emmanuel’s veins;
And sinners plunged beneath that flood lose all their guilty stains.
Lose all their guilty stains, lose all their guilty stains;
And sinners plunged beneath that flood lose all their guilty stains.

 

[Mr GLee]

Sometimes we believers seem to think the unsaved are, according to the Bible, stupid. Sproul and others decry the abandonment of reason that seems common to modern Christianity, as though logic and reason are not spiritual. While it is true that the secular world has also largely abandoned such assumptions as the acceptance that there are absolutes, and that self-contradictory notions are invalid, it doesn't mean that they are any more stupid than we are. They may well understand spiritual things such as doctrinal frameworks, and even have some valid things to say about them

I say that to say this: We know from reading or hearing 'believers' who have some very deep thoughts, and show a very good understanding of doctrine, and good use of scripture, but they have later demonstrated that they were not of us. ANY of us could be one of them, assuming we are wise and still 'not getting it', as demonstrated by our [at least] inconsistent obedience. ANY of us can decry our disobedience, cry for mercy, beg God for the will to continue in him, and think we have confessed and repented, and God can still say, "I never knew you". ANY of us can fool himself.

Also, both sadly and happily, there are MANY redeemed who do not understand the depth of the Grace by which they are saved; but, be honest —do any of us?

Yes the Spirit of Christ defines the "us" that did not go out from the true "us" the gospel understanding. . not according to what the eyes see.

 

[David1701]

makesends said:
I'm curious how you would assess the 'Second-Work-Of-Grace' testimonies.

Agreed. But I was more after your reaction to the testimonies of those who hold to that view —but I guess you've answered it well enough: Basically, that their testimonies are irrelevant because it is a false notion.

The thought came to me because what I have heard them say, (but yes, in their case it is only because of their experience of what they called that), is very similar to what it sounds like what you posit as necessary concerning regeneration —that one must be aware of it happening when it happens).

My view (although it could be wrong) is that at least some of these testimonies are of the people getting saved, when they had thought that they were saved already because of a decision they'd made at some point. There is also the possibility that they have had a blessing from God, as saved Christians, but that they have misconstrued it because of the "second blessing" doctrine.

 

[David1701]

William Cowper (1731-1800, pronounced Cooper) was afflicted with severe bouts of depression and haunting despair for virtually all of his life. lived during the time John Wesley preached~who knows this could have been part of his problem. But, I truly do not know.

There is a Fountain Filled with Blood.” The first verse reads:

I very much doubt if Cowper (I love that hymn, by the way) believed in the "entire sanctification" heresy (especially since he believed in predestination, which was anathema to the Wesleys).

He probably suffered from manic depression, which is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain.

 

[Rella]

Do the babies you baptize "believe in Him"?

[Since you noted that Acts 2 did not explicitly FORBID infant baptism, it seems only fair that I should point out that Jesus did not BAPTIZE these children!]

Jesus did not baptise anyone. John 4:2 (although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were),

 

[CrowCross]

Jesus did not baptise anyone. John 4:2 (although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were),

Did Paul baptize anyone?

 

[Simons]

Did Paul baptize anyone?

yes: 1 Cor 1: 13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
14 I give thanks [to God] that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,
15 so that no one can say you were baptized in my name.
16(I baptized the household of Stephanas also; beyond that I do not know whether I baptized anyone else.)
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with the wisdom of human eloquence, so that the cross of Christ might not be emptied of its meaning.

 

[Mr GLee]

Jesus did not baptise anyone. John 4:2 (although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were),

I would offer a Urban alternative (LOL) .

Jesus to whom the new kingdom of priests was reckoned after coming from the tribe of Judah Jesu as a priest . . .did baptize more disciples not unbelievers . than John a Levite.

A ceremonial law a sign to all the nations of the world. . the gospel. Not a sign to the performers dying mankind.

God whose name is jealous (owns all things) He will not share his glory with dying mankind. It would show Aarons two sons failed that test

Aarons two sons after the ceremonial baptism got wet ( as shadow) they added to the word of God called strange fire it. . 2 seconds of false fame. . consumed them, not a hint of smoke of the ceremonial attire .Same baptism today . . a shadow a personal desire Not all Levites were priest .Not all Christians are member of the new priesthood . again a desire of men, not all called to be priest. . preachers

No sign gifts. I did it. . look it proves it .Signs that causes a wonders gospel and not prophecy the living word of God the true gospel . . no need to wonder, suffer, wonder, wonder. suffer after His gospel the Spirt of truth sets us free.

Many thing to wonder after today as identity theft rocket speed . Future vice president promising governmental issued women personal hygiene products in the little boy rest room. Or Henrietta Cat litter in kindergarten classroom in case one identifies as a cats meow, meow, ,meow, meow, meow, meow and further more . . .meow. LOL

God looks on the inside where he repairs broken spirits forming new spirit life .

John 4:1-3King James Version When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.

Jesus, exclusively baptized his disciples, Not unbelievers. He knew what was in the heart of dying mankind it strengthened them to both hear and obey the living word . Then they got wet to show the unbelieving world their new gospel desire to serve in the kingdom of priest men and woman alike. Formally under Levi. . Men's only club. . No female prophets when Kings in Israel. "the ceremonial shadow demonstration" .again .during time period Kings in Israel. (abomination of desolation) the miraculous time of reformation came. . Hebrew 9 the new kingdom of priest.

 

[JIM]

I would offer a Urban alternative (LOL) .

Jesus to whom the new kingdom of priests was reckoned after coming from the tribe of Judah Jesu as a priest . . .did baptize more disciples not unbelievers . than John a Levite.

The command is not to baptized disciples. The command Jesus gave in Matthew 28:19-20 specifically describes the making of disciples by baptizing and teaching.

In the Greek text, it is very clear that there is only one command and that is to make disciples. The baptizing and teaching are participials modifying the verb make. Thus they both describe the process for making disciples. It is comparable to my saying to my roof repair guy, "Go up and fix my roof, repairing any bad holds in the boards and replacing all the shingles. Repairing and replacing are participials modifying the verb fix. It describes the process for fixing the roof, not what is done to the roof after fixing it.

 

[atpollard]

If they have no personal sin do they still need to repent?

They do if they are going to follow the instructions of Acts 2:38 [And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.]. I was not the one that claimed that children should obey Acts 2:38 as children … you implied it with the quote “Acts 2:38-39 says children”. I merely pointed out that if children are going to obey Acts 2:38, then they need to follow ALL of the words and not just the word “children” plucked from the verse while ignoring everything else the Holy Spirit inspired to be written.

 

[atpollard]

Jesus did not baptise anyone. John 4:2 (although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were),

I am a bit confused …

• Jesus said “Don’t prevent children from coming to me if they want!”
• Jesus never baptized ANYONE.
• This proves WE SHOULD ALL BAPTIZE INFANTS BY SPRINKLING THEM WITH WATER, LIKE CURCUMCISION!

Sorry, I must be brain damaged … because I really just cannot connect those dots.

 

[Carbon]

This thread has been hijacked.

And is now closed.