HOW GENUINE IS THE "RAPTURE" DOCTRINE?

[Buff Scott Jr.]

The “Rapture” Doctrine​

One of the most crushing arguments against the modern-day “Rapture” doctrine is 1st Corinthians 15. Of the 58 verses contained in this chapter, 85 percent of them deal with the resurrection. Yet, in all of these verses, not once does Paul allude to Jesus descending twice more. Listen to verse 23. “But each in his own turn: Christ, the first fruits; then, when he comes [referring to one advent], those who belong to him. Then the end will come.”

It might interest you to know that “will come” is not in the oldest Greek manuscripts. Literally, the verse reads, “Then the end.” End of what? End of time and tangible matter as we know them today. When that occurs, Jesus “hands over the kingdom [reign] to God the Father after he has destroyed all [earthly] dominion, authority, and power. For he must [now] reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet” (verses 24 & 25).

Our “Rapture” enthusiasts say that Jesus will suddenly appear in the air to snatch away from the earth and take to heaven all living saints, as well as the resurrected bodies of those believers who have died. At the “Rapture,” Jesus “snatches up the church” only. But at “The Revelation,” when He is revealed once again, He will “return with the church”and bring an end to the “Tribulation” and “Armageddon.” A thousand-year earthly reign will then commence, as per the doctrine. Consequently, we have two future advents. It makes little difference whether Jesus’ feet will touch the earth during His first advent (“Rapture”). The fact is, there are two advents scheduled. The scriptures speak of only one.

If Jesus is to descend twice more, as our “Rapture” brothers claim, please tell me why Paul failed to communicate that fact when he wrote at length about the resurrection? He alludes to one advent (verse 23), not two. He had every opportunity to say something about a second advent. He is completely silent on the subject! You see, if the scriptures fail to teach that Jesus will descend twice more, the contemporary “Rapture” doctrine falls short of evidence. And when a doctrine falls short of evidence, it is most likely of man and not of God. The “Rapture” doctrine falls short of evidence. It simply ain’t there!

Jesus is now reigning over new Israel, the redeemed society. The new Israel was not meant to be earthly and external, as earthly kingdoms are, and her King was to reign in the hearts of His subjects, not from a throne constructed from earthly stones and materialistic hardware. Jesus states it far more exquisitely, “The kingdom [reign] of God does not come visibly, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom [reign] of God is within you” (Luke 17:20-21). Jesus reigns from His throne in heaven and in the hearts of His subjects, not in earthly Jerusalem at a future date. For then people would be able to say, “Here it is,” or “There it is.” And Jesus says this will not be the case!​

 

[Josheb]

It might interest you to know that “will come” is not in the oldest Greek manuscripts. Literally, the verse reads, “Then the end.” End of what? End of time and tangible matter as we know them today.​

Very good op, but this line is incorrect. There is nothing in the scriptures stating time will ever end. In fact, if we are raised incorruptible and immortal then time is unending. The more likely answer is the end of the age. The age in which Jesus came to earth was concluding. Paul said so right in the very letter cited in this op. He was commenting about how the things of the Tanakh were written about spiritual matters (very much in keeping with things said in this op) and how they were written for Paul's Corinthian readers (and by extension other Christians of the first century).

1 Corinthians 10:11
Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

The ends of the ages had come.

Luke 18:29-30
And He said to them, “Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house, or wife, or brothers, or parents, or children for the sake of the kingdom of God, who will not receive many times as much at this time, and in the age to come, eternal life.”

And apparently there is more than one age coming.

Ephesians 2:4-7
But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

God will show the surpassing riches of His grace in multiple ages. There is a day coming when every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord of all and he will hand over the keys to his Father. And he will not be coming down to earth multiple times in the meantime to rapture folks away.

Psalm 110:1
The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."

The Lord will remain enthroned at his LORD's right hand until the LORD makes a footstool of the Lord's enemies.

Isaiah 45:21-23
Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn; from my mouth has gone out in righteousness a word that shall not return: ‘To me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear allegiance.’

Philippians 2:8-11
Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus is now reigning over new Israel, the redeemed society.​

That is true, but Jesus is also ruling over all the heavens and the earth. His is the rule far above all power, principality, and other rule. It may not seem that way when viewed through temporal eyes of flesh, but Jesus is now enthroned, and his Father will make a footstool of all his already-defeated enemies in the course of His timing.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Very good op, but this line is incorrect. There is nothing in the scriptures stating time will ever end. In fact, if we are raised incorruptible and immortal then time is unending. The more likely answer is the end of the age. The age in which Jesus came to earth was concluding. Paul said so right in the very letter cited in this op. He was commenting about how the things of the Tanakh were written about spiritual matters (very much in keeping with things said in this op) and how they were written for Paul's Corinthian readers (and by extension other Christians of the first century).

1 Corinthians 10:11
Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

The ends of the ages had come.

Agreed that Paul was speaking of multiple ages coming to an end at that time. However, this contradicts what I underlined from your statement above about the single age in which Jesus came to earth. Paul wrote that "the ENDS of the AGES" PLURAL were then coming to an end in his generation - not just one single age.

I believe there is a particular reason why Paul referred to multiple ends of multiple ages coming to an end at that time. Every one of those ages of mankind up until that time had been subjected in one way or another to the presence of Satan, the "Prince of this world" and his fallen angels. However, in "the ages that are coming" (PLURAL ages), neither Satan nor his angels would have an existence anymore, once God destroyed them all and they "passed out of the land", as Zechariah 13:2 had predicted.

Hebrews chapter 1 described the condition of those last days which were then coming to an end, and the fact that the world to come would not be in subjection to the angels anymore (Hebrews 2:5). Mankind would not be wrestling with "principalities and powers and the rulers of the darkness of this world" anymore when those first-century "last days" had ended, because mankind would no longer be in subjection to the "Prince of this world" when "the ends of the ages" had come back then in Paul's generation.

 

[Mr GLee]

Our “Rapture” enthusiasts say that Jesus will suddenly appear in the air to snatch away from the earth and take to heaven all living saints, as well as the resurrected bodies of those believers who have died. At the “Rapture,” Jesus “snatches up the church” only. But at “The Revelation,” when He is revealed once again, He will “return with the church”and bring an end to the “Tribulation” and “Armageddon.” A thousand-year earthly reign will then commence, as per the doctrine. Consequently, we have two future advents. It makes little difference whether Jesus’ feet will touch the earth during His first advent (“Rapture”). The fact is, there are two advents scheduled. The scriptures speak of only one.

If Jesus is to descend twice more, as our “Rapture” brothers claim, please tell me why Paul failed to communicate that fact when he wrote at length about the resurrection? He alludes to one advent (verse 23), not two. He had every opportunity to say something about a second advent. He is completely silent on the subject! You see, if the scriptures fail to teach that Jesus will descend twice more, the contemporary “Rapture” doctrine falls short of evidence. And when a doctrine falls short of evidence, it is most likely of man and not of God. The “Rapture” doctrine falls short of evidence. It simply ain’t there!

Christ having prepared the city of Christ the mansion of many rooms it opened the resurrect gate at the time of the first century reformation restoring the order of our invisible King of kings destroying kings in Israel a pagan tradition.

On the last day under the Sun the Spirit of Christ will leave like a thief in the night drawing with him the faithful that remained alive together both changed into the new bodies not subject to death in the twinkling of the eye

No literal thousand years we are past 1000.

 

[Eleanor]

The “Rapture” Doctrine​

One of the most crushing arguments against the modern-day “Rapture” doctrine is 1st Corinthians 15. Of the 58 verses contained in this chapter, 85 percent of them deal with the resurrection. Yet, in all of these verses, not once does Paul allude to Jesus descending twice more. Listen to verse 23. “But each in his own turn: Christ, the first fruits; then, when he comes [referring to one advent], those who belong to him. Then the end will come.”

It might interest you to know that “will come” is not in the oldest Greek manuscripts. Literally, the verse reads, “Then the end.” End of what? End of time and tangible matter as we know them today. When that occurs, Jesus “hands over the kingdom [reign] to God the Father after he has destroyed all [earthly] dominion, authority, and power. For he must [now] reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet” (verses 24 & 25).

Our “Rapture” enthusiasts say that Jesus will suddenly appear in the air to snatch away from the earth and take to heaven all living saints, as well as the resurrected bodies of those believers who have died. At the “Rapture,” Jesus “snatches up the church” only. But at “The Revelation,” when He is revealed once again, He will “return with the church”and bring an end to the “Tribulation” and “Armageddon.” A thousand-year earthly reign will then commence, as per the doctrine. Consequently, we have two future advents. It makes little difference whether Jesus’ feet will touch the earth during His first advent (“Rapture”). The fact is, there are two advents scheduled. The scriptures speak of only one.

If Jesus is to descend twice more, as our “Rapture” brothers claim, please tell me why Paul failed to communicate that fact when he wrote at length about the resurrection? He alludes to one advent (verse 23), not two. He had every opportunity to say something about a second advent. He is completely silent on the subject! You see, if the scriptures fail to teach that Jesus will descend twice more, the contemporary “Rapture” doctrine falls short of evidence. And when a doctrine falls short of evidence, it is most likely of man and not of God. The “Rapture” doctrine falls short of evidence. It simply ain’t there!

Jesus is now reigning over new Israel, the redeemed society. The new Israel was not meant to be earthly and external, as earthly kingdoms are, and her King was to reign in the hearts of His subjects, not from a throne constructed from earthly stones and materialistic hardware. Jesus states it far more exquisitely, “The kingdom [reign] of God does not come visibly, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom [reign] of God is within you” (Luke 17:20-21). Jesus reigns from His throne in heaven and in the hearts of His subjects, not in earthly Jerusalem at a future date. For then people would be able to say, “Here it is,” or “There it is.” And Jesus says this will not be the case!​

Whose rapture doctrine are we talking about?

The rapture doctrine of NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16), as distinct from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8), is indeed genuine.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Whose rapture doctrine are we talking about?

The rapture doctrine of NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16), as distinct from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8), is indeed genuine.

One of the most crushing arguments against the modern-day “Rapture” doctrine is 1st Corinthians 15. Of the 58 verses contained in this chapter, 85 percent of them deal with the resurrection.

Buff is right about the emphasis in 1 Corinthians 15 being on the bodily-resurrected state for the saints, and the change to the incorruptible that characterizes this state.

The "rapture" as popularly described (but not scripturally based) is that somehow at Christ's return, the living believers will be caught up and translated in mid-air into incorruptible bodies on their way to heaven with Him. Nowhere in scripture as taught by the apostles or Christ is this en masse translation type of change promised to living believers who have not died yet. Not in 1 Corinthians 15 or in 1 Thessalonians 4 either. That popular idea totally contradicts the fact that "it is appointed unto men ONCE TO DIE, and after that the judgment" in Hebrews 9:27.

 

[Eleanor]

Buff is right about the emphasis in 1 Corinthians 15 being on the bodily-resurrected state for the saints, and the change to the incorruptible that characterizes this state.

The "rapture" as popularly described (but not scripturally based) is that somehow at Christ's return, the living believers will be caught up and translated in mid-air into incorruptible bodies on their way to heaven with Him. Nowhere in scripture as taught by the apostles or Christ is this en masse translation type of change promised to living believers who have not died yet. Not in 1 Corinthians 15 or in 1 Thessalonians 4 either. That popular idea totally contradicts the fact that "it is appointed unto men ONCE TO DIE, and after that the judgment" in Hebrews 9:27.

Actually, it is a mystery revealed by Paul in 1 Co 15:51-52 in explicit detail.
Some will be alive when Christ returns for the resurrection at the end of time.

"Listen, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep (die), but we will all be changed---in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will all be changed" (from mortal to immortal bodies, just as the bodies of those resurrected are likewise changed, 1 Co 15:42-44).

 

[3 Resurrections]

Actually, it is a mystery revealed by Paul in 1 Co 15:51-52 in explicit detail.
Some will be alive when Christ returns for the resurrection at the end of time.

"Listen, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep (die), but we will all be changed---in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will all be changed" (from mortal to immortal bodies, just as the bodies of those resurrected are likewise changed, 1 Co 15:42-44).

No, a translation-type of change for the living is NOT being taught here, and neither is a so-called "end of time" which appears nowhere in scripture either.

You're not paying attention to the entire context. When that change to the incorruptible and immortal would occur, Paul wrote that "DEATH will be swallowed up in victory", and that DEATH would lose its sting, and the GRAVE would have no victory (1 Corinthians 15:54-55). That means the change to the incorruptible and immortal state for the believers would take place for the dead who were in the grave - not for the living who had not yet died and been put in that grave.

When Paul wrote to the believers that "We shall NOT all sleep, but we shall ALL be changed..." he was not writing that some would never die. (That would contradict Hebrews 9:27 entirely.) Paul was writing that NONE of the believers would remain sleeping in death in the grave, and that ALL the dead in Christ would be changed.

This is exactly the same language John used to describe the antichrists in 1 John 2:19. The antichrists went out from among the believers, so that it would be manifested that "they were NOT all of us". That didn't mean there were some exceptions for those antichrists leaving the fellowship. NONE of those antichrists who went out from among the believers belonged in fellowship with them. It's exactly the same way "We shall NOT all sleep" is to be understood. There would be no exceptions for the dead believers in the grave who would ALL experience that "change".

A whole doctrine has been built upon the misunderstanding of this one passage in 1 Corinthians 15. There is no massive group of believers who get raptured off this planet at Christ's return without all of them having died the one appointed time, as required ever since the Fall in the Garden of Eden. It was Satan who convinced the original couple that "you will not surely die", and that same lie has been believed by many due to a misinterpretation of the "rapture" text.

 

[CrowCross]

Our “Rapture” enthusiasts say that Jesus will suddenly appear in the air to snatch away from the earth and take to heaven all living saints, as well as the resurrected bodies of those believers who have died.

The "enthusiast" know this event will happen just as much as they know John 3:16 is true.
How do they know the rapture will happen? The answer is it's in the bible just as John 3:16 is in the bible.

1 Thes 4:15 By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17 After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

18Therefore encourage one another with these words.

.....Why Buff do you not encourage people with those words?

 

[CrowCross]

No literal thousand years we are past 1000.

We can know the 1,000 year reign of Christ hasn't happened yet because the events listed in the book of Revelation that precede the 1,000 year reign haven't happened yet.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Meeting the Lord in the air is just a way of talking about meeting Jesus when you die. In other words, it's like a Near Death Experience. When people make passages that are obviously not literal into literal things, it gets them into trouble. There are so many eschatological scenarios that people have concocted from the Bible that contradict themselves all over the place. And it's all based on interpretations which will not allow anything other than a severe form of literalism, which then become strongly held belief systems. The end product of that is bigotry and division among people, who, out of pride, condemn fellow believers and even go so far as to deny they even have salvation, and the endless arguments between them. All based on faulty interpretation. It seems that the Americans are the worst when it comes to this kind of thing. (Not all of them, of course). And it gets even worse when they attempt to erect some infallible rules of interpretation to further argue their positions. They will claim that there are supposed to be rules of interpretation (Even though every single person interprets things differently due to perspective, age, and perception etc) without realising that such rules are man made. You cannot find any such rules in the Bible itself. But, because they think they are right, they hold onto their views like a bulldog that won't let go, and you are damned if you disagree with them.

I'm sick of such ignorant people.

 

[CrowCross]

Meeting the Lord in the air is just a way of talking about meeting Jesus when you die. In other words, it's like a Near Death Experience. When people make passages that are obviously not literal into literal things, it gets them into trouble. There are so many eschatological scenarios that people have concocted from the Bible that contradict themselves all over the place. And it's all based on interpretations which will not allow anything other than a severe form of literalism, which then become strongly held belief systems. The end product of that is bigotry and division among people, who, out of pride, condemn fellow believers and even go so far as to deny they even have salvation, and the endless arguments between them. All based on faulty interpretation. It seems that the Americans are the worst when it comes to this kind of thing. (Not all of them, of course). And it gets even worse when they attempt to erect some infallible rules of interpretation to further argue their positions. They will claim that there are supposed to be rules of interpretation (Even though every single person interprets things differently due to perspective, age, and perception etc) without realising that such rules are man made. You cannot find any such rules in the Bible itself. But, because they think they are right, they hold onto their views like a bulldog that won't let go, and you are damned if you disagree with them.

I'm sick of such ignorant people.

With all due respect...I just quoted biblical scripture in post 9. I didn't write it....

Do tell us how the rapture...."caught up" which is the English word comes from a Latin word, rapio....is based upon a misinterpretation and will not be a literal event.

 

[3 Resurrections]

.....Why Buff do you not encourage people with those words?

There is no need for Buff to encourage people today with those words because that "rapture" promise for the "living and remaining" saints was for the first-century generation and not for us.

Remember Dorcas / Tabitha who was resurrected by Peter and "presented ALIVE" to the saints and widows in Acts 9:41?
Remember the beloved disciple, (the resurrected Lazarus) who Christ said in John 21:22 would "REMAIN" until He came?

It wasn't ordinary living believers who hadn't died yet who would participate in the 1 Thessalonians 4 "rapture". It was those resurrected, "living and remaining" believers (such as the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints, Lazarus, Dorcas, etc.) who would be caught up in the air to meet Christ, together with the rest of the newly-resurrected saints.

The first-century believers who had been mourning for their deceased loved ones in Christ didn't need to worry that their loved ones had missed a resurrection, simply because they didn't participate in the first resurrection event along with Christ and the Matthew 27:52-53 saints rising from the dead. Another resurrection event was coming soon in that first century which would "rapture" all of them to heaven with Christ together. And their dead loved ones in the grave would rise from those graves first of all, to be joined with the "alive and remaining" believers who had been resurrected to immortal and incorruptible life years before, but who had remained on the earth until then.

 

[CrowCross]

There is no need for Buff to encourage people today with those words because that "rapture" promise for the "living and remaining" saints was for the first-century generation and not for us.

Remember Dorcas / Tabitha who was resurrected by Peter and "presented ALIVE" to the saints and widows in Acts 9:41?
Remember the beloved disciple, (the resurrected Lazarus) who Christ said in John 21:22 would "REMAIN" until He came?

It wasn't ordinary living believers who hadn't died yet who would participate in the 1 Thessalonians 4 "rapture". It was those resurrected, "living and remaining" believers (such as the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints, Lazarus, Dorcas, etc.) who would be caught up in the air to meet Christ, together with the rest of the newly-resurrected saints.

The first-century believers who had been mourning for their deceased loved ones in Christ didn't need to worry that their loved ones had missed a resurrection, simply because they didn't participate in the first resurrection event along with Christ and the Matthew 27:52-53 saints rising from the dead. Another resurrection event was coming soon in that first century which would "rapture" all of them to heaven with Christ together. And their dead loved ones in the grave would rise from those graves first of all, to be joined with the "alive and remaining" believers who had been resurrected to immortal and incorruptible life years before, but who had remained on the earth until then.

You poor soul.
There is no record in history of a rapture of the saints.

 

[3 Resurrections]

You poor soul.
There is no record in history of a rapture of the saints.

Don't you realize that resurrected saints, like Christ, have the option of invisibility? Our resurrected bodies will be just like His was. Who says that the resurrection of the saints was going to be witnessed by one and all in the world? The "change" of their physical bodies in the resurrection process would take place "in the twinkling of an eye", you know. Do you really think that this was going to be some kind of slow-motion event that took hours to accomplish? Christ Himself emerged from the unopened tomb without disturbing the enclosure at all, and without the guards noticing who were standing just on the other side of the stone.

 

[Josheb]

Agreed that Paul was speaking of multiple ages coming to an end at that time. However, this contradicts what I underlined from your statement above about the single age in which Jesus came to earth. Paul wrote that "the ENDS of the AGES" PLURAL were then coming to an end in his generation - not just one single age.

There's no contradiction if there are multiple ages existing during Christ's incarnation and he was referring to only one. For example, we know the law ceased to be a means of obtaining justification and righteousness. We know that the progressive nature of covenant revelation ended. We know the reign of sin was changed, the relationship between God and man was changed, and more. These could be considered as various facets of one age, or examples of multiple ages. The same term could also be used in different senses without contradicting each other, like Paul's commentary on justification by faith and James commentary on the same. Seemingly different messages because each approaches the same matter from a different context. When the contexts are recognized the two men complement each other rather than contradict.

I believe there is a particular reason why Paul referred to multiple ends of multiple ages coming to an end at that time. Every one of those ages of mankind up until that time....

Wait a minute. That appears to contradict what you just said in the first two sentences. If there are multiple ages, then it does not contradict what Jesus said; it complements it. Jesus spoke about one specific )unidentified) age even though multiple ages were coming to an end.

However, in "the ages that are coming" (PLURAL ages), neither Satan nor his angels would have an existence anymore, once God destroyed them all and they "passed out of the land", as Zechariah 13:2 had predicted.

That might be correct, depending on how you, I, we, and others identify the ages and whether they are sequential or co-occurring. For example, you and I will probably agree satan is bound and has been bound for a long time. We'll also agree Jesus came to undo his works. That does not mean his influence is still not existent or that God is not using him or his influence for His purpose in the ages that exist before he is destroyed.

Hebrews chapter 1 described the condition of those last days which were then coming to an end, and the fact that the world to come would not be in subjection to the angels anymore (Hebrews 2:5). Mankind would not be wrestling with "principalities and powers and the rulers of the darkness of this world" anymore when those first-century "last days" had ended, because mankind would no longer be in subjection to the "Prince of this world" when "the ends of the ages" had come back then in Paul's generation.

Let's not get distracted. The point being discussed is the claim time will end. Everything in Post #3 requires time. Furthermore, you seem to be disagreeing with the op, but expecting me to comment on those differences when Buff can speak for himself and the best one toy assert, defend, amend his op as he sees fit.

The fact the last days were coming to an end does not mean time (or the world) was coming to an end. As far as the last few comments of yours go, I'm not confident wrestling with principalities and rulers of the darkness of this world is synonymous with subjection to satan when the ages end. For one thing, I will suggest, "prince of this world," is rhetorical, not literal. Satan disobeyed God. The wages of sin are death. Satan is, therefore, dead in sin. He's no different in that regard than any other creature who sinned. He is, therefore, also not the ruler of anything. He cannot rule God. He cannot rule himself. We certainly do not want to make him ruler of the world based on just one verse, especially when there are many verses informing us his glory has been removed, the only power he has is that of deceit, he's enslaved to sin that kills, there is no hope of salvation for him, and the comment about him roaming the earth looking for those he may devour is most likely a reference to his uncleanness. What kind of ruler flees when resisted? What kind of might does such a "ruler" have if ALL his schemes are extinguished with the armor of God?

He is not really the ruler of anything, and he never has been. He is and has always been a minion, a minion of God, and a better way of viewing his existence now is that he served his Creator's purpose long ago in various ways, and while still being held in bonds of eternal darkness awaiting his day of destruction (he's already been judged) he continues to serve the purpose of the only Ruler that has ever existed = The Creator God.

 

[EarlyActs]

The “Rapture” Doctrine​

One of the most crushing arguments against the modern-day “Rapture” doctrine is 1st Corinthians 15. Of the 58 verses contained in this chapter, 85 percent of them deal with the resurrection. Yet, in all of these verses, not once does Paul allude to Jesus descending twice more. Listen to verse 23. “But each in his own turn: Christ, the first fruits; then, when he comes [referring to one advent], those who belong to him. Then the end will come.”

It might interest you to know that “will come” is not in the oldest Greek manuscripts. Literally, the verse reads, “Then the end.” End of what? End of time and tangible matter as we know them today. When that occurs, Jesus “hands over the kingdom [reign] to God the Father after he has destroyed all [earthly] dominion, authority, and power. For he must [now] reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet” (verses 24 & 25).

Our “Rapture” enthusiasts say that Jesus will suddenly appear in the air to snatch away from the earth and take to heaven all living saints, as well as the resurrected bodies of those believers who have died. At the “Rapture,” Jesus “snatches up the church” only. But at “The Revelation,” when He is revealed once again, He will “return with the church”and bring an end to the “Tribulation” and “Armageddon.” A thousand-year earthly reign will then commence, as per the doctrine. Consequently, we have two future advents. It makes little difference whether Jesus’ feet will touch the earth during His first advent (“Rapture”). The fact is, there are two advents scheduled. The scriptures speak of only one.

If Jesus is to descend twice more, as our “Rapture” brothers claim, please tell me why Paul failed to communicate that fact when he wrote at length about the resurrection? He alludes to one advent (verse 23), not two. He had every opportunity to say something about a second advent. He is completely silent on the subject! You see, if the scriptures fail to teach that Jesus will descend twice more, the contemporary “Rapture” doctrine falls short of evidence. And when a doctrine falls short of evidence, it is most likely of man and not of God. The “Rapture” doctrine falls short of evidence. It simply ain’t there!

Jesus is now reigning over new Israel, the redeemed society. The new Israel was not meant to be earthly and external, as earthly kingdoms are, and her King was to reign in the hearts of His subjects, not from a throne constructed from earthly stones and materialistic hardware. Jesus states it far more exquisitely, “The kingdom [reign] of God does not come visibly, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom [reign] of God is within you” (Luke 17:20-21). Jesus reigns from His throne in heaven and in the hearts of His subjects, not in earthly Jerusalem at a future date. For then people would be able to say, “Here it is,” or “There it is.” And Jesus says this will not be the case!​

The event was explained to the Thess in a period when the expectation was that the world would end right after the destruction of Jerusalem. The evil person of Dan 8&9 was identified as part of that conflagration. Even in the details of that event, we learn that there was a postponement of the seige in 69 and many believers left Jerusalem as Romans were more relaxed.

The question then becomes: given the above, what would necessarily follow through or remain the same for the future? Most of the circumstances would be different.

I think what remains the same is the protection of the believers from the wrath of God as described in 2 Th 1-2. 'We are not appointed for wrath.' But to be clear, the events he describes there are very quick in duration. Other than the years of the revolt and destruction of Jerusalem, I do not seem much time taken up by the day of God's wrath. (This also solves many 'judicial' contradictions--an unconscious blurring of dying on earth--in world wide plagues or cataclysms-- with the doctrine of eternal damnation).

I do think that since the world has moved along, and nasty doctrines of a one-world government crop up, that there could be a 'harrassment of the saints' before the day of wrath, which may be mentioned in how the 'very long reign of Christ' ends in Rev 20. But again, the mere voice or word of God brings all opposition to an end, and quickly.

 

[3 Resurrections]

That might be correct, depending on how you, I, we, and others identify the ages and whether they are sequential or co-occurring. For example, you and I will probably agree satan is bound and has been bound for a long time. We'll also agree Jesus came to undo his works. That does not mean his influence is still not existent or that God is not using him or his influence for His purpose in the ages that exist before he is destroyed.

No, I don't agree with you that Satan is currently bound today. Satan is dead as a doornail right now, as well as his devils. God slew that Dragon long ago back in AD 70, as well as the host of high ones that had followed Satan in disobedience.

This is the symbolism portrayed by Daniel's statue being destroyed by one single blow of Christ the "stone" kingdom. All the different elements which composed that statue were destroyed "together" simultaneously, even though we know that the actual governmental structure which composed those former pagan empires passed to others at differing points on the calendar of history. Yet something was simultaneously destroyed which was common to all those former pagan empires.

That common element destroyed simultaneously was the Satanic realm which had operated behind the scenes of each of those pagan empires through the ages of history (which multiple "ends" of multiple "ages" ended back in the first century). Daniel hinted at this Satanic influence behind the world's kingdoms by mentioning the angelic "Prince of Persia" who had resisted for 21 days the efforts of Daniel's angel to come to him. Daniel also mentioned a "Prince of Greece" as well, (which was not a human prince of Greece any more than the "Prince of Persia" was a human prince). Each of those pagan empires had Satan's influence trying to work behind the scenes to frustrate God's redemptive plans for the nations - to no avail.

These angelic "Princes" of the nations were connected with Satan, which Christ had called "the Prince of this world". Satan was correct when he told Christ in Luke 4:5-7 that all the power of the kingdoms of the world had been given to him (which was due to Adam and Eve passing their own dominion of the world over to Satan when they obeyed Satan's temptation to sin). God as the ultimate Ruler of all creation allowed this for the duration of those past ages for His own purposes. However, the time came in AD 70 when Satan's power over those oppressed kingdoms of the world was crushed by God (as promised the Roman believers in Romans 16:20), and Christ claimed all those many confiscated crowns from a dead Satan and his destroyed minions. Christ currently wears all those "many crowns" today. This was in fulfillment of Revelation 19:12, which was one of the prophecies of Revelation which was "at hand" in John's days.

 

[Eleanor]

No, a translation-type of change for the living is NOT being taught here, and neither is a so-called "end of time" which appears nowhere in scripture either.

You're not paying attention to the entire context. When that change to the incorruptible and immortal would occur, Paul wrote that "DEATH will be swallowed up in victory", and that DEATH would lose its sting, and the GRAVE would have no victory (1 Corinthians 15:54-55). That means the change to the incorruptible and immortal state for the believers would take place for the dead who were in the grave - not for the living who had not yet died and been put in that grave.

When Paul wrote to the believers that "We shall NOT all sleep, but we shall ALL be changed..." he was not writing that some would never die. (That would contradict Hebrews 9:27 entirely.) Paul was writing that NONE of the believers would remain sleeping in death in the grave, and that ALL the dead in Christ would be changed.

Nope. . .you misunderstand Heb 9:27, just as you misunderstand 1 Co 15:51-52.

Heb 9:27 is not about all men dying.
The text is using the pattern of one death and one judgment as demonstration of Christ's one appearing as sacrifice for sin and
one appearing to bring salvation from judgment, and no other appearings/revealings in between.

Heb 9:27 is not a statement about the universal death of all mankind at the one and only second coming,
for there will be those alive who "see the Son of Man coming on the clouds" when he sends his angels
to "gather the elect from one end of the heavens to the other." (Mt 24:30-31).
Not all will be dead at the second coming and resurrection.

This is exactly the same language John used to describe the antichrists in 1 John 2:19. The antichrists went out from among the believers, so that it would be manifested that "they were NOT all of us". That didn't mean there were some exceptions for those antichrists leaving the fellowship. NONE of those antichrists who went out from among the believers belonged in fellowship with them.

You are not familiar with Scriptural phrasing and are misunderstanding the plain meaning regarding "of us" there.
It does not mean that "they (the antichrists) were NOT all of us."
Not all "of us" there does not mean "not everyone," it means not all were OF us, they were not a "part" of us," not really "one" of us,
"Not all of us" means "not all were us (believers)," some were not us (believers).

It's exactly the same way "We shall NOT all sleep" is to be understood. There would be no exceptions for the dead believers in the grave who would ALL experience that "change""

Straw man? . . .no one said there would be an exception regarding the changed bodies of the dead at the resurrection.
All will be changed at Jesus' second coming, the dead will be so when they come out of their graves, along with the living (Mt 24:30-31,
1 Co 15:51-52) at the time.

The text of 1 Co 15:51-52 is the revelation of a mystery, which is abundantly clear and of which we have no authority to change the meaning in "we shall not all sleep" when sleep is commonly used in the NT to mean death (e.g., Jn 11:11-15, Mt 9:18, 24, Mt 27:52, 1 Co 15:18,
1 Th 4:14); i.e., we shall not all sleep (die).

A whole doctrine has been built upon the misunderstanding of this one passage in 1 Corinthians 15.
There is no massive group of believers who get raptured off this planet at Christ's return without all of them having died the one appointed time

Are you sure about that?. . .Mt 24:30-31?

as required ever since the Fall in the Garden of Eden. It was Satan who convinced the original couple that "you will not surely die", and that same lie has been believed by many due to a misinterpretation of the "rapture" text.

The real misinterpretation has been demonstrated with Mt 24:30-31, above.

 

[Eleanor]

There is no need for Buff to encourage people today with those words because that "rapture" promise for the "living and remaining" saints was for the first-century generation and not for us.

Remember Dorcas / Tabitha who was resurrected by Peter and "presented ALIVE" to the saints and widows in Acts 9:41?
Remember the beloved disciple, (the resurrected Lazarus) who Christ said in John 21:22 would "REMAIN" until He came?

Read it again, that is not what he said. You left out the "if."
You are handling his words as carelessly as John points our that the brothers were doing there (Jn 21:22-23).
Tsk, tsk, tsk.
Loose handling of the word of God does not yield correct understanding, as it did not in Jn 21:22-23.

It wasn't ordinary living believers who hadn't died yet who would participate in the 1 Thessalonians 4 "rapture". It was those resurrected, "living and remaining" believers (such as the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints, Lazarus, Dorcas, etc.) who would be caught up in the air to meet Christ, together with the rest of the newly-resurrected saints.

The first-century believers who had been mourning for their deceased loved ones in Christ didn't need to worry that their loved ones had missed a resurrection, simply because they didn't participate in the first resurrection event along with Christ and the Matthew 27:52-53 saints rising from the dead. Another resurrection event was coming soon in that first century which would "rapture" all of them to heaven with Christ together. And their dead loved ones in the grave would rise from those graves first of all, to be joined with the "alive and remaining" believers who had been resurrected to immortal and incorruptible life years before, but who had remained on the earth until then.