A problem with premillennialism

[CrowCross]

@CrowCross

would you tell me where scripture teaches, there will be an invisible or secret second coming?

The scripture doesn't teach there will be an invisible or secret coming.

When Christ appears in the sky ...clouds...and the Christians are raptured and the dead in Christ resurrected...I think it will be on the news.

I also believe they will presented it as some sort of alien abduction

 

[Carbon]

The scripture doesn't teach there will be an invisible or secret coming.

When Christ appears in the sky ...clouds...and the Christians are raptured and the dead in Christ resurrected...I think it will be on the news.

okay

 

[CrowCross]

okay

I added to it ....I also believe they will presented it as some sort of alien abduction.

 

[Carbon]

I added to it ....I also believe they will presented it as some sort of alien abduction.

if it were to happen as premill's believe, then sure. but I do not believe Scripture teaches a pre-trib rapture.

 

[Musicmaster]

haha. denial.

it is sad that you cannot even consider something other than what has been jammed into your head. sure, it's fun stuff, but it's simply not true.

hope this helps

You offered no rebuttal to support the idea that the two were saying the same thing, and you think to turn around and criticize me?

What folly.

MM

 

[Carbon]

You offered no rebuttal to support the idea that the two were saying the same thing, and you think to turn around and criticize me?

What folly.

MM

are you to sensitive for debate?

 

[CrowCross]

if it were to happen as premill's believe, then sure. but I do not believe Scripture teaches a pre-trib rapture.

I'll stick with Rev 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
That's not 100% proof of a pre-trib rapture....but it's a data point.

There is also the days of Noah comment made by Jesus. Sounds like they were partying...eating, drinking, getting married...does this sound like the end of the tribulation time period? I don't think so. The world is pretty much devastated.
Now, it does sound like pre-trib times.
That's not 100% proof of a pre-trib rapture....but it's a data point.

1 Thes 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
That's not 100% proof of a pre-trib rapture....but it's a data point.

In Acts the angels say Jesus will return like he left.
In the bible we see Jesus returning twice....once like He left as described in 1 Thes 4 and a second time on a white horse as described in Rev 19.
Remember Jesus didn't leave on a white horse.
But as I've been saying....That's not 100% proof of a pre-trib rapture....but it's a data point.

The Church isn't mentioned after Rev chapter 5.
That's not 100% proof of a pre-trib rapture....but it's a data point.

There's more....but as you can see I do believe in a pre-trib rapture. I have reasons. If you disagree that's OK.
In fact over the years I've probably held all 3-4 beliefs. But, settled on the pre-trib rapture.

One more thing, the pre-trib rapture models the Jewish engagement, preparation and wedding.
But, once again that's not 100% proof of a pre-trib rapture....but it's a data point.

 

[Carbon]

I'll stick with Rev 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I will also keep you from the hour of testing that is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.
That's not 100% proof of a pre-trib rapture....but it's a data point.

There is also the days of Noah comment made by Jesus. Sounds like they were partying...eating, drinking, getting married...does this sound like the end of the tribulation time period? I don't think so. The world is pretty much devastated.
Now, it does sound like pre-trib times.
That's not 100% proof of a pre-trib rapture....but it's a data point.

1 Thes 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
That's not 100% proof of a pre-trib rapture....but it's a data point.

In Acts the angels say Jesus will return like he left.
In the bible we see Jesus returning twice....once like He left as described in 1 Thes 4 and a second time on a white horse as described in Rev 19.
Remember Jesus didn't leave on a white horse.
But as I've been saying....That's not 100% proof of a pre-trib rapture....but it's a data point.

The Church isn't mentioned after Rev chapter 5.
That's not 100% proof of a pre-trib rapture....but it's a data point.

There's more....but as you can see I do believe in a pre-trib rapture. I have reasons. If you disagree that's OK.
In fact over the years I've probably held all 3-4 beliefs. But, settled on the pre-trib rapture.

One more thing, the pre-trib rapture models the Jewish engagement, preparation and wedding.
But, once again that's not 100% proof of a pre-trib rapture....but it's a data point.

would you be worried if the church were to go through the tribulation? is there something about that, that bothers you? curious

 

[Musicmaster]

are you to sensitive for debate?

That makes no sense. I stated that you offered no rebuttal, which is discussion of a topic. All you did was claim that I was wrong, with no rebuttal, and so I upheld your being willfully blind.

MM

 

[CrowCross]

would you be worried if the church were to go through the tribulation? is there something about that, that bothers you? curious

Nothing I would want to experience....nor, as a child of God should experience.

If you get past the 4 horsemen...through Rev 8, you probably won't make it through Rev 13. But then again we are not destined for that wrath.

The only cool part might be watching the two witnesses.

 

[Carbon]

Nothing I would want to experience....nor, as a child of God should experience.

God being the sovereign Almighty creator of the universe, who controls all things, who works all things for good to those who are His, yet you still worry? Thats interesting, especially since you are reformed.

If you get past the 4 horsemen...through Rev 8, you probably won't make it through Rev 13. But then again we are not destined for that wrath.

imo they are here, been here. By the way, Christ is the rider on the white horse.

The only cool part might be watching the two witnesses.

hmmm.

 

[CrowCross]

God being the sovereign Almighty creator of the universe, who controls all things, who works all things for good to those who are His, yet you still worry? Thats interesting, especially since you are reformed.

I don't worry about my salvation....I would worry about being encompassed in the wrath. Would you really want to deal with the hardship and all that goes with it by not taking the mark in Rev 13?
Thankfully the Christians will be rescued from that wrath.

imo they are here, been here. By the way, Christ is the rider on the white horse.

If Christ is already here..arriving on a white horse...that makes you a preterist as with that view Revelation is past tense.

hmmm.

 

[Carbon]

I don't worry about my salvation....

i didnt ask you about your salvation.

I would worry about being encompassed in the wrath.

whose wrath? surely not God's, Christ already took that for you.

Would you really want to deal with the hardship and all that goes with it by not taking the mark in Rev 13?
Thankfully the Christians will be rescued from that wrath.

Do you consider the tribulation period God's wrath? Jesus himself said, in this world, you will have tribulation.
God uses tribulation as an instrument for our own spiritual advancement. the church actually needs tribulations. the church too is sinful and in constant need of purification and sanctification.

Do you really believe that all things will work out for good to those who love God?

If Christ is already here..arriving on a white horse...that makes you a preterist as with that view Revelation is past tense.

Sorry brother but I really believe you misunderstand the book of Revelation.

Then I saw when the Lamb broke one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, “Come!” 2 I looked, and behold, a white horse, and the one who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer. Revelation 6.

Consider a few things here brother.
The horse is white. white is always associated with that which is holy and pure.
Think of the white garments, white cloud, white throne, white stone, etc. So we can be sure the rider on the white horse cant be the devil or the antichrist.

This rider also receives a crown. Who wears a crown in scripture? 14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, with a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. Rev 14.14.

In scripture to conquer refers to believers or Christ. Not the devil or antichrist. Consider these passages.
John 16.33 These things I have spoken to you so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world.”

Am I worried about the tribulation?
Nope, not at all.


Rev 5.5 5 And one of the elders said to me, “Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.”

Rev 6.2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse! And its rider had a bow, and a crown was given to him, and he came out conquering, and to conquer.

How about a passage which tells us the rider on the white horse is definitely Christ?
Revelation 19.11
Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war.

And there is more.

 

[Carbon]

If Christ is already here..arriving on a white horse...that makes you a preterist as with that view Revelation is past tense.

Revelation explains this world from the time of Christ to the end of the age, the second coming. those problems in the seven churches were happening during the time John wrote, and they exist today as well.
The 4 horsemen explain what is happening to the world today. These are not literal horsemen who will appear one day. Didn't Christ conquer, and continue to conquer? Of course.

I believe the rider of the white horse is Christ.
the red horse represents slaughter.
the black horse represents economic hardship and poverty due to injustice.
the pale horse represents death, famine, pestilence, etc...

Dont these things exist?

 

[Carbon]

Would you really want to deal with the hardship and all that goes with it by not taking the mark in Rev 13?

Curious, what exactly do you believe this mark of the beast is?

And what makes you believe such?

 

[Tambora]

1 Thes 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
That's not 100% proof of a pre-trib rapture....but it's a data point.

Why can't the wrath believers are not destined for be being thrown in the lake of fire?

 

[CrowCross]

Sorry brother but I really believe you misunderstand the book of Revelation.

Then I saw when the Lamb broke one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, “Come!” 2 I looked, and behold, a white horse, and the one who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer. Revelation 6.

Consider a few things here brother.
The horse is white. white is always associated with that which is holy and pure.
Think of the white garments, white cloud, white throne, white stone, etc. So we can be sure the rider on the white horse cant be the devil or the antichrist.

The rider of the Rev 6 white horse...is the anti-Christ.

This rider is an false imitator of the true Christ. Nothing new here.

The true Christ has many royal crowns (diadéma) on His head (Rev 19).....not one crown (stephanos) like the anti-christ in Rev 6.

 

[CrowCross]

Why can't the wrath believers are not destined for be being thrown in the lake of fire?

You asked..."Why can't the wrath believers are not destined for be being thrown in the lake of fire?"

Because the preceeding verses that give 1 Thes 5:9 textual context tells us:

2 For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

 

[CrowCross]

How about a passage which tells us the rider on the white horse is definitely Christ?
Revelation 19.11
Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war.

I just mentioned the crowns don't match.

No mention of a bow with no arrows in Rev 19. In Rev 19 the true Christ uses a sharp sword.

Your interpretation of Jesus Christ riding the white horse in Rev 6 calls for Jesus to return 3 times.

1) rapture
2) Rev 6 white horse
3) Rev 19 white horse.

 

[CrowCross]

The 4 horsemen explain what is happening to the world today. These are not literal horsemen who will appear one day. Didn't Christ conquer, and continue to conquer? Of course.

I believe the rider of the white horse is Christ.

.....happening to the world today....

Jesus is here today riding a white horse?