Great tribulation, then rapture

[TonyChanYT]

Matthew 24:

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Christians will experience the great tribulation.

How long will the great tribulation last?

I don't know exactly, but it counts in days, not years.

Would you know if you were in the early stages of tribulation?

Only with hindsight:

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

One can even include possible redeemable people on other planets.

More detail of the 2nd coming is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

John 6:

40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

Revelation 1:

7 Look, he is coming with the clouds, and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all peoples on earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

John 5:

28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

2 Peter 3:

12b the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! 13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

The following seems to be the chronological order of events:

The great tribulation

2nd coming of Christ on the clouds on the last day

The dead in Christ resurrected

Live believers caught up (rapture).

The wicked resurrected for judgment

Both believers and unbelievers witness Christ coming on the clouds

Believers comes down from the clouds to the earth with Jesus

End of physical days, space-time dimensions changed

New heavens and new earth established.

As for the millennium reign, I assume it is only symbolic and not literal.

In the 19th century, John Darby placed rapture before the great tribulation. He described a secret coming (rapture) to gather believers, followed by a visible return at the end of the tribulation period. In the 20th century, this doctrine was exploited by the Left Behind film series. I do not put much weight on this doctrine.

 

[CrowCross]

Jesus comes back twice......the first time at the rapture/resurrection then a second time 7 years after the great tribulation.

 

[Ghada]

Matthew 24:

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Christians will experience the great tribulation.

Tribulation and wrath of man has been on earth, and against the righteous believers in the Lord God, since Cain slew Abel.

The last days of man's age of wrath on earth, began with Jesus' resurrection from being crucified by wicked men.

There have been great periods of much tribulation on earth, for them that live godly in Christ Jesus, but there will be the greatest tribulation and wrath against the saints, during the dominion and power of last great antichrist coming before the Lord's return.

It will be cut quick and short with the Lord coming again into the air, to resurrect and recieve His saints unto Himself.

Then begins the greatest tribulation and wrath of the Lord and Lamb of God over all the earth, since the days of Noah. Not by water, but by power of the Lord over all things in heaven and on earth.

How long will the great tribulation last?

I don't know exactly, but it counts in days, not years.

Good observation. It will last long enough for the armies of rebellious nations to gather from over the earth to the land of Judea. They will seek to make war with the Lamb and His saints and armies of angels in the clouds of the air.

It will be as the Lord's prepping bombardment from the air and heavens, for His own D-day invasion on the earth.

As an aside, the gathering of armies will be by natural travel on the empowered horses written of. There is no mention of modern power-driven machines in those days to come. Not because the Lord did not know of them when prophecying those days, but because His coming into the air with power, will darken and reduce all the earth back to natural light and movement alone.

Would you know if you were in the early stages of tribulation?

Anyone knows when they are in tribulation in life. Tribulation on earth has always been with us, since Adam transgressed and repented not.

The distinction is between natural tribulation of this life to all flesh, wicked men's tribulation and wrath upon the godly, and the Lord's righteous tribulation and recompense upon the ungodly that trouble the innocent.

The beginning of the Lord's own greatest tribulation and wrath on earth, will be immediate and certainly known by every unbelieving eye one arth, seeing and wailing because of Him. The saints will know their tribulation on earth ends immediately, by being changed in a moment from mortal flesh and blood, to immortal flesh and bones after the likeness of Jesus Christ.

Only with hindsight:

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The angels will gather unto the Lord, all His first resurrected and changed saints, that are risen into the air from one end of heaven to the other.

I believe they will rise in sight of all the disobedient and unbeleiving inhabitors, as the two witnesses, that are among the last martyrs of saints on the earth before the Lord's return. The question is how long all resurrected and changed saints will be standing on the earth for all to see, before ascending into the air to be gathered unto the Lord.

All the inhabitors of the earth will know without doubt, that the Lord has returned, has resurrected and changed His saints on the earth, and be seen ascending with clouds in the air. In likeness of the ascent of the Lord into a cloud, as seen by His disciples.

Which makes the gathering armies to Judea to fight them from land, even more reprobate mad than Pharoah and his armies, who drove their chariots into the dry sea bed, with all it's waves standing on both sides.

As the water saved Noah from the wicked of the earth, and the waves saved the children of Israel from Pharoah's wrath, so will the bodily change and ascension with clouds, save the godly from triublation and wrath of man over all the earth.

As in the days of Noah, so shall be at the coming of the Son of man: all the earth will once again be set against His righteous believers:

Psa 2:1Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

One can even include possible redeemable people on other planets.

No Scripture gives any hint of life on other planets. Other than earth, no planets are even given mention.

No doubt during the eternal new heaven and earth, men dwelling with God from New Jersualem will colonize the stars?

More detail of the 2nd coming is described in 1 Thessalonians 4:

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

The traditional 'rapture' of disappearing saints, is not the prophecy as written.

The only thing changing in a moment, is that of the mortal bodies on earth into immortal. The catching up says nothing of how fast, nor of anything not seen. Since this is the first ressurection of the saints at the Lord's return, then that includes the two martyred witnesses, after lying three days dead on earth.

They are cught up in sight of all the earth with clouds, even as the Lord's own ascension seen by His disicples. And then they are gathered from all corners of heaven to meet with the Lord in the air. They will then be with the Lord wherever He is on earth, in heaven, and on the new earth and heaven.

 

[Ghada]

The following seems to be the chronological order of events:

The great tribulation

2nd coming of Christ on the clouds on the last day

The dead in Christ resurrected

Live believers caught up (rapture).

Good.

The wicked resurrected for judgment

This is out of place. The rest of the dead only live again to be judged, after the Lord's millennium reign upon the earth.

Both believers and unbelievers witness Christ coming on the clouds

The righteous believers intantly changed on earth will see Him, as well as all the unchanged children of disobedience. It's only the diobedient at His return, that will see and wail because of Him.

Their party over the dead witnesses of Christ on earth, ends abruptly. And they are left on earth more full of wrath than ever. Like the Sodomites madly groping in the darkness for the angels.

Believers comes down from the clouds to the earth with Jesus

For a thousand years reigning with the Lord upon the earth.

End of physical days, space-time dimensions changed

This is more sci-fi stuff, as ET's.

Once heaven and earth was created, times and seasons never end, including with the new heaven and earth.

Heb 1:10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

This heaven and earth shall pass away and perish. They shall be changed for new clothes. The Lord remains the same, and His years fail not.

New heavens and new earth established.

Scripture says created, and so created, not 'established'.

Which is after the old heaven and earth perish and pass away, after the GWT judgment of the rest of dead, after the last great rebellion and wrath of men on earth, after the Lord's millennium upon the earth expires.

As for the millennium reign, I assume it is only symbolic and not literal.

Many people presume to change sure prophecy of Scripture into more fables of man. Scripture specifically forbids such fable-making pertaining to the Lord coming again to earth, with power to reign upon the earth as prophecied.

2Pe 1:16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
Some believers go so far as to say they are now reigning with Christ in heaven over all the earth, in some kind of 'spirit-only' fashion. They then assume they will be doing so forever. Which of course would forbid any judgment of their own works, that their bodies back here on earth are still doing. Which then of course forbids them having any part of the second death.

Rev 20:6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

It's just another tiresome way of claiming unconditional eternal salvation by one's own faith alone, while still committing sins with the world.

In the 19th century, John Darby placed rapture before the great tribulation.

The last great tribulation and wrath of man upon the godly, will immediately end with the Lord's saints resurrected and ascending into the air. The greatest tribulation and wrath of the Lamb will then begin on the inhabitors left on the earth. Which ends with the slaughter of armies gathered into Judea wot make war with Him and His saints.

He described a secret coming (rapture) to gather believers,

The Lord's coming again from heaven is not a phantom appearance, but in plain sight over all the earth.

Other false christs come by stealth from upon the earth, so that their decieved followers must clue in other people, that they have come to save their day. Including if possible, to save unto themselves the saints of Christ Jesus, that need no new kind of saving.

Examples of newly preached works necessary for remission of sins, else ye cannot be saved, are flesh circumcision, communion drinking, sabbath day keeping, water baptism saving, created christ believing, etc...

I believe the last great antichrist to come on earth, before the Lord's return from heaven, will be a mixture of part or all these things into one truly great messed up, and world-wide lump of Jews and Christians, that are united under the dominion of his own Judeo-Christian gospel.

followed by a visible return at the end of the tribulation period.

The Lord and His resurrected saints, that are visible with clouds in the air, will return to earth to defeat all armies gathered around Armageddon, and then to reign upon all the earth over all cities of the earth, beginning at Jersusalem.

The ministerial rewards of the faithful believers and servants of the Lord, will be cities to rule upon earth with the Lord roraring out of Zion.

In the 20th century, this doctrine was exploited by the Left Behind film series. I do not put much weight on this doctrine.

Though they made much weight in silver and gold.

 

[Carbon]

Jesus comes back twice......the first time at the rapture/resurrection then a second time 7 years after the great tribulation.

So, there are two 'second'-comings?
Are you sure about that? And where do you find it?

If you ask me, this is one place your premillennialism fails you.

 

[Ghada]

So, there are two 'second'-comings?
Are you sure about that? And where do you find it?

If you ask me, this is one place your premillennialism fails you.

Since there is only one second coming and no third coming in Scripture, then it must be a phantom coming in between His first and second coming.

That would be the present phantom Christ, that phantom seers claim to follow, and love to reign with in the air.

Eph 2:2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

 

[Mr GLee]

Since there is only one second coming and no third coming in Scripture, then it must be a phantom coming in between His first and second coming.

That would be the present phantom Christ, that phantom seers claim to follow, and love to reign with in the air.

Eph 2:2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

If Christ indwells in all believers . Who is coming?

God is not a man.

 

[Carbon]

If Christ indwells in all believers . Who is coming?

God is not a man.

We serve and worship a big God. Whom it seems you know nothing about.
Not your wittle weak god.

 

[CrowCross]

So, there are two 'second'-comings?
Are you sure about that? And where do you find it?

If you ask me, this is one place your premillennialism fails you.

Didn't I already explain it to you? Returning the same way He left....riding a white horse???
Did you forget?

Party times of the days of Noah not....not happening at th end of the trib???

 

[Carbon]

Didn't I already explain it to you? Returning the same way He left....riding a white horse???
Did you forget?

Party times of the days of Noah not....not happening at th end of the trib???

To have two second comings makes absolutely no sense. No matter how many times you tell me.

 

[CrowCross]

To have two second comings makes absolutely no sense. No matter how many times you tell me.

It pretty much mimics the Jewish wedding.

Have you heard that?

 

[Mr GLee]

We serve and worship a big God. Whom it seems you know nothing about.
Not your wittle weak god.

LOL Weak God . let there be and it was invisible God alone good.

Who is coming since Christ is here working in the heart of His children?

The idea of trying to make God into a Jewish man as King of kings will never get off the ground.

 

[CrowCross]

LOL Weak God . let there be and it was invisible God alone good.

Who is coming since Christ is here working in the heart of His children?

The idea of trying to make God into a Jewish man as King of kings will never get off the ground.

Face palm.....the Word who is God became flesh. Read John 1.
Read Phil 2.

 

[Carbon]

Face palm.....the Word who is God became flesh. Read John 1.
Read Phil 2.

Amen brother!

 

[CrowCross]

Amen brother!

Every time the Bible mentions Jesus as God the anti-trintites say....welllllll, the verse really says this, or a better translation is this. The funny thing is each of the cults have a different rendition.

 

[Carbon]

Every time the Bible mentions Jesus as God the anti-trintites say....welllllll, the verse really says this, or a better translation is this. The funny thing is each of the cults have a different rendition.

Yep

 

[Mr GLee]

Face palm.....the Word who is God became flesh. Read John 1.
Read Phil 2.

Read the law of faith "Let there be" (words of God)and the word became substance . God is not a word.

Simply, Satan trying to deceive all the nations God is a Jewish man as dying mankind as Kink of kings. It began with lucifer in the garden . Look at my beauty I created and live

No faith (understanding) in the invisible Lord Christ not little nothing. Blind to the eternal things not seen . . faithless

 

[CrowCross]

Read the law of faith "Let there be" (words of God)and the word became substance . God is not a word.

Simply, Satan trying to deceive all the nations God is a Jewish man as dying mankind as Kink of kings. It began with lucifer in the garden . Look at my beauty I created and live

No faith (understanding) in the invisible Lord Christ not little nothing. Blind to the eternal things not seen . . faithless

Read the law of faith .....how'bout you read the Bible?

 

[EarlyActs]

lol Kink of Kings; well that may be it in a nutshell!

The passages about tribulation and rapture are clearly very dialed in to the 1st cent. situation, and they had every expectation of being removed miraculously from the worst of it...but that did not happen. Many were tar lamps for Rome for 4 hours at the end of their lives.

The answer is not to 'try the passages out again on modern times' as though we could rip away from all the local and past reference they have, like the Sabbath police of Mt 24. Instead, we should understand the broad and compelling issues of the 1st century that might apply now. The great issue is that Israel was offered to work in the Gospels' mission, did not, and suffered horribly for that by giving leadership to Zealots.

My book is THE COVENANT REVOLT at Amazon. You may feel like you never 'heard' the NT before after you read it.

 

[Mr GLee]

Read the law of faith .....how'bout you read the Bible?

Thanks as his powerful creative faith "Let there be Light and it was God alone good" that works in me yoked with him I can miraculously give glory our invisible head Christ our husband .

Philippians 2:13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

How do you read your bible if not by faith Christ in us?