False Doctrine of the "Secret Rapture".

[CrowCross]

I understand, but I must ask whether the tiring is due to my persistence or you inability to address the facts in evidence.

You have been answered ad-nausea.

You act as if Jesus doesn't return on a white horse...yet have never explained the purpose of that verse.
You never explained what is meant by Jesus will return the same way in which He left as per the angels comment.
The Noah prophecy is part of Jesus' answer to the question...what will be the sign of Your coming...Jesus mentions people will be having "good times". This makes perfect sense for a pre-trib return but not a return at the end of the tribulation as the world will be pretty much devestated by them.

 

[Josheb]

You have been answered ad-nausea.

No, you responded ad nauseam. None of them were correct answers when measured by what is stated in scripture. Not one.

You act as if Jesus doesn't return on a white horse...

Never happened. What I did do is point to the silence of scripture.

yet have never explained the purpose of that verse.

The onus is not on me. You were the one who brought up the white horse and you are the one failing to prove he leaves heaven and comes to earth on a white horse. Attempts to shift the onus are fallacious, and it's something you've done throughout the thread.

You never explained what is meant by Jesus will return the same way in which He left as per the angels comment.

I did, actually. I, unlike you, provided more than a half-dozen verses from the whole of scripture, both Old and New, explaining what is "meant." I used scripture to understand scripture. I did not use a man-made hermeneutic invented in the 19th century. You did that. It is because you stuck to that failed model that Jesus leaving on a white horse AND coming on a white horse were never proven.

The Noah prophecy is part of Jesus' answer to the question...

Yep. That's not a point in dispute. What is in dispute is your interpretation of Jesus' words. I looked at scripture. You looked to a 19th century man-made hermeneutic.

what will be the sign of Your coming...Jesus mentions people will be having "good times".

Yep. They had good times all they way up to the point when the flood took away those outside of God's covenant to be destroyed. You, using a 19th century end-times model invented in the 19th century make the text say the exact oppositie of what it literally states: the ones taken away were destroyed!!! That passage has absolutely nothing to do with any rapture, separated or not, but that is what the modern futurist model teaches its adherence to do: Ignore what is stated. Make scripture say things it does not state.

This makes perfect sense for a pre-trib return...

No, it does not. It makes no sense at all. It is quite literally nonsensical.

...but not a return at the end of the tribulation as the world will be pretty much devastated by them.

The exact same text in which the appeal to Noah is made by Jesus explicitly states the disciples will be handed over to tribulation and immediately after the great tribulation they will see more signs and they are not to be mislead.

Modern futurism denies it all. It misleads.




So, I am therefore back to my earlier point: perhaps what you tire of is the inability to provide actual scripture stating what you claim, and the frustration of near-constantly having to look at scripture stating the exact opposite or being silent. I empathize. I used to be a dispy. I very much know what you're going through.


Do not hate the messenger.


If you haven't done so already, then read Kim Riddlebarger's "A Case for Amillennialism," and Robert Clouse's "Four Views on the Millennium." You do not have to agree with Riddlebarger's position, but you will find he is a better exegete than any dispensationalist you have ever read, even Thomas Ice.

 

[Mr GLee]

Well maybe not a single verse....but the angel did say Jesus would return the way he left...that's 1...and then there is the second verse that says Jesus will return riding a white horse.

Those two verses are enough to show Jesus returns twice. Once in the air then a second time Jesus on earth.

On the other hand there is the decription of the return being when people are partying like in the days of Noah....which I doubt will be happening at the end of the tribulation when Jesus returns as sorts things out. What do you think? Will it be party time just before Jesus returns?

In that parable which without parables Christ spoke not. using the metaphor white to represent the purity of Christ and a horse to represent the power strength of the lord.

The Son of man Jesus our brother in the lord will not return in his new incorruptible body until after the last day under the Sun. . the end of time. .

Christ is reigning in the hearts of those born again as Ambassadors sent as apostles from a foreign land (not seen) The Holy Spirit will leave like a thief in the night on the last day under the Sun .Then in the new heavens and earth the veil will be lifted and the wedding consummated

 

[CrowCross]

In that parable which without parables Christ spoke not. using the metaphor white to represent the purity of Christ and a horse to represent the power strength of the lord.

If you say so.

 

[Mr GLee]

If you say so.

I think its the signified understanding of parables .which without Christ spoke not The first verse reveals' the kind of interpretation as "signified" . Using as a sign of the temporal things seen to give us the spiritual understanding of the gospel .Hid from natural unconverted mankind. . . . . understood by the living word working in the hearts of new creatures born again from above.

Revelation 1King James Version1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Called hidden manna (hidden meaning) in Revelations 2:17 Manna literally meaning "What is it ?" Our daily bread God revealing his will.

Revelations 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

 

[CrowCross]

I think its the signified understanding of parables .which without Christ spoke not The first verse reveals' the kind of interpretation as "signified" . Using as a sign of the temporal things seen to give us the spiritual understanding of the gospel .Hid from natural unconverted mankind. . . . . understood by the living word working in the hearts of new creatures born again from above.

Revelation 1King James Version1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Called hidden manna (hidden meaning) in Revelations 2:17 Manna literally meaning "What is it ?" Our daily bread God revealing his will.

Revelations 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

I have no clue as to what your talking about or how it relates.

 

[Mr GLee]

I have no clue as to what your talking about or how it relates.

Do you understand why Christ spoke in parables' and without parables he spoke not

 

[CrowCross]

Do you understand why Christ spoke in parables' and without parables he spoke not

So, Christ return is only a parable? Bummer.

 

[Mr GLee]

So, Christ return is only a parable? Bummer.

Christ the revelation from the Father is used in parables. Without parables the Father spoke not . We have the privilege's to search them out as for silver or gold

Christ is here working in the hearts of dying mankind to both reveal his will as it is written. Empowering the dying creatures to perform it to his good pleasure of the Holy father. Jesus empowered by the father did the will of the father without murmuring . Some murmur and want to die like Jonas

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

What is he going to return to? He will leave like a thief in the night on the last day under the sun .


2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith;( Christ in us) prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

​

 

[Mr GLee]

How does any of that prove or disprove a separated rapture?

Separated from what?

The marriage supper is just prior to Christ return on the white horse with those raptured and resurrected 7 years prior.
Christ then returns to earth and defeats the beast and false prophet...Satan is then bound then cast into the lake of fire...then the white throne judgement followed by the new heaven and new earth...and the arrival of new Jerusalem.

When does the tribulation end? I would say when Christ returns on the white horse and wraps things up.

The great tribulation began at the time of reformation. the time like never before or ever again a gospel explosion all the nations of the world under a new name the father named her Christian

Christ the anointing teaching Holy Spirit is not literally retuning on white horse. He is here reining from heaven with his ambassadors sent from a land not of this world.

 

[Josheb]

Separated from what?

Has the op been read?

Modern futurists and, more specifically, Dispensational Premillennialists separate the rapture from the Second Coming. They are the only ones who do this. All the other eschatological points of view do NOT separate the rapture from the Second Coming. All the other eschatologies agree with scripture and one another; only modern futurism dissents and separates the rapture from the Second Coming.

Do the rapture and the Second Coming occur at the same time? The modern futurist's answer is "No!". Everyone else says yes. THAT is what the op is about: the false doctrine of the secret rapture.

 

[Mr GLee]

Has the op been read?

Modern futurists and, more specifically, Dispensational Premillennialists separate the rapture from the Second Coming. They are the only ones who do this. All the other eschatological points of view do NOT separate the rapture from the Second Coming. All the other eschatologies agree with scripture and one another; only modern futurism dissents and separates the rapture from the Second Coming.

View attachment 775


Do the rapture and the Second Coming occur at the same time? The modern futurist's answer is "No!". Everyone else says yes. THAT is what the op is about: the false doctrine of the secret rapture.

I am sure there are different version of both. On how they chose yes or no.

I would ask second coming?? . Coming of what? Christ is here reigning in the hearts of those born again.

Coming of the last day under the Sun Yes both the judgment day and the day of receiving our new incorruptible bodies that will never die. Simultaneously

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
I
John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[Josheb]

I am sure there are different version of both.

There are variations within the views but when it comes to the specific question of whether or not the rapture is separate, they are only two views: separated and not separated. For 2000 years Christian thought, doctrine, and practice has been uniform: the rapture occurs at the time of the Second (final) coming. The rapture and the Second Coming are not two separate events, especially not two events separated from one another my years. In the early 1800s a completely new a different theology developed, heavily influenced by one main individual's views. The belief separating the rapture from the Second Coming is an entirely new point of view, not something ever held in orthodox mainstream Christianity prior to John Darby and Cyrus Scofield.

Modern futurists muck up Christian discussion boards everyday with prognostications about some modern news report being a sign of the soon coming rapture. They preach to Christians, judge anyone who's not "looking up" believing as they do, and not a single one of the threads ever proves to be true. This forum hasn't been up and running long enough to generate much history of false prognostications but an examination of any of the legacy threads in any forum shows a 100% fail rate. They make things up. The made-up things never happen. They start over. Anyone who points it out and questions it is told they need to get a grip, or wake up, called blind, or judged not to be a Christian.

 

[CrowCross]

Separated from what?

The great tribulation began at the time of reformation. the time like never before or ever again a gospel explosion all the nations of the world under a new name the father named her Christian

Christ the anointing teaching Holy Spirit is not literally retuning on white horse. He is here reining from heaven with his ambassadors sent from a land not of this world.

Bummer.

 

[Hobie]

In that parable which without parables Christ spoke not. using the metaphor white to represent the purity of Christ and a horse to represent the power strength of the lord.

The Son of man Jesus our brother in the lord will not return in his new incorruptible body until after the last day under the Sun. . the end of time. .

Christ is reigning in the hearts of those born again as Ambassadors sent as apostles from a foreign land (not seen) The Holy Spirit will leave like a thief in the night on the last day under the Sun .Then in the new heavens and earth the veil will be lifted and the wedding consummated

When the Holy Spirit is drawn away, it is the close of probation and it is happening now as all can see..

 

[3 Resurrections]

When the Holy Spirit is drawn away, it is the close of probation and it is happening now as all can see..

Not true.

The Holy Spirit, once given, was going to remain forever. Christ promised this in John 14:16. "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

As long as there in a single believer on this planet, the Holy Spirit indwells that person, and will abide with them forever. God's kingdom was promised to have an un-ending level of increase. "Of the INCREASE of His government and of His peace, there shall be NO END." So there will never be a time when the kingdom of God in this world is not increasing its membership. Meaning the Holy Spirit will always be here indwelling those increasing number of members of God's kingdom on earth.

 

[Hobie]

Has the op been read?

Modern futurists and, more specifically, Dispensational Premillennialists separate the rapture from the Second Coming. They are the only ones who do this. All the other eschatological points of view do NOT separate the rapture from the Second Coming. All the other eschatologies agree with scripture and one another; only modern futurism dissents and separates the rapture from the Second Coming.

View attachment 775


Do the rapture and the Second Coming occur at the same time? The modern futurist's answer is "No!". Everyone else says yes. THAT is what the op is about: the false doctrine of the secret rapture.

They have put forward doctrines of devils and seducing spirits so that people dont know the truth. Christ is coming in all His glory at the Second Coming and yet people have been told there is a 'secret' rapture and people will just disappear and no one will know for sure, it will happen without the whole world seeing it, and that is not what Gods Word says..

 

[Musicmaster]

"Secret" rapture?

Hmm. I've often wondered about this subjective labeling of something that's no secret at all to those who watch and are prepared, and will certainly not be a secret to those left here on this earth and are aware of the missing people. It's only a "secret" (as a thief in the night, which speaks of surprise, not a "secret") to those who are not prepared and who are therefore not watching.

The label of "secret rapture" seems more of an antagonistic bent upon aspersions than anything else since it obviously ignores what the scriptures actually say. This event is no secret given that it's clearly addressed in multiple places throughout, as well as numerous mentions of the thousand years to come shortly thereafter.

Additionally, given that the hour will be made known to those who watch, but not to those who do not watch, that much is made quite clear to us in Revelation.

MM

 

[Hobie]

"Secret" rapture?

Hmm. I've often wondered about this subjective labeling of something that's no secret at all to those who watch and are prepared, and will certainly not be a secret to those left here on this earth and are aware of the missing people. It's only a "secret" (as a thief in the night, which speaks of surprise, not a "secret") to those who are not prepared and who are therefore not watching.

The label of "secret rapture" seems more of an antagonistic bent upon aspersions than anything else since it obviously ignores what the scriptures actually say. This event is no secret given that it's clearly addressed in multiple places throughout, as well as numerous mentions of the thousand years to come shortly thereafter.

Additionally, given that the hour will be made known to those who watch, but not to those who do not watch, that much is made quite clear to us in Revelation.

MM

Well, its still being taught, but many are seeing its not what the Bible teaches..

 

[Musicmaster]

Well, its still being taught, but many are seeing its not what the Bible teaches..

Correction: Many are seeing what they WANT to see in scripture, whether its in the arena of eschatology, soteriology or any other of the many studied one may do. In eschatology, some see the gathering of the Church at the very end of tribulation, others right before the bowl judgements, others at the exact center, and others before the beginning. None of that really matter as being central to the faith.

Private interpretation has been going on for centuries, and will not stop until after everything is done and over with this fallen world.

Bottom line is that there is no secret about the rapture except only to those who sleep or are not watching, and therefore caught up in the "thief in the night" syndrome, realizing they were not prepared. Those who want to stay here on this earth only have to continue forward without watching and being prepared. I'm all for their freedom to stay here all they want, and that way they can see how tough they really are in the face of the horrors to come.

MM