HOW GENUINE IS THE "RAPTURE" DOCTRINE?

[3 Resurrections]

Heb 9:27 is not about all men dying.
The text is using the pattern of one death and one judgment as demonstration of Christ's one appearing as sacrifice for sin and
one appearing to bring salvation from judgment, and no other appearings/revealings in between.

That is a lie you are believing. Hebrews 9:27 most certainly is about a one-time only death appointment for all men, just as Christ died the one time and would never die again. If you deny one fact, you deny the other fact.

Heb 9:27 is not a statement about the universal death of all mankind at the one and only second coming,
for there will be those alive who "see the Son of Man coming on the clouds" when he sends his angels
to "gather the elect from one end of the heavens to the other." (Mt 24:30-31).
Not all will be dead at the second coming and resurrection.

I didn't say that all would be dead at the second coming. For the second coming of Christ back in AD 70, not everyone on the planet died at that point, of course. Those within the city of Jerusalem of the Israelite "tribes of the earth" witnessed that bodily return of Christ, but were not able to participate in that event because Christ only gathered to Himself all of His bodily resurrected saints, leaving earth to return to heaven with them, as He had promised His disciples in John 14:3. History continued to flow after that point, in the "year to year" progress of time which Zechariah 14:16 described for the ages following Christ's second coming return in Zechariah 14:4-5.

It is only at the close of history in our future at the third coming of Christ when all inhabitants of the world will die, in fulfillment of the requirement long ago as a result of Adam's choice to sin. The believers will not be exempt from this requirement either, though they are the only ones to be resurrected after that. The bodies of the wicked do not rise, since they are not promised eternal life.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Loose handling of the word of God does not yield correct understanding, as it did not in Jn 21:22-23.

"Loose handling of the word of God"? It isn't me that is denying the results of the Fall in Genesis, and the Hebrews 9:27 requirement that all of mankind is appointed to die the one time, just as Christ died the one time in sacrifice for us, never to die again. "As in Adam ALL DIE" is a cardinal rule of scripture. Nobody skips out of this in a "rapture" to heaven without dying first and then being resurrected into an incorruptible and immortal form.

Christ had determined that the beloved, resurrected Lazarus would remain until He came. It was impossible for Lazarus to die again a second time. There was no "IF" that Christ applied to that fact. You are using the word "IF" in a rather limited sense. It doesn't apply in the sense of only a doubtful possibility in verses such a "If Christ be for us who can be against us". Neither was it a doubtful possibility that the beloved disciples would "remain" until Christ came. IF or SINCE Christ had already decided that the beloved disciple would "remain" until His second coming, that was not Peter's business to question.

 

[CrowCross]

Don't you realize that resurrected saints, like Christ, have the option of invisibility? Our resurrected bodies will be just like His was. Who says that the resurrection of the saints was going to be witnessed by one and all in the world? The "change" of their physical bodies in the resurrection process would take place "in the twinkling of an eye", you know. Do you really think that this was going to be some kind of slow-motion event that took hours to accomplish? Christ Himself emerged from the unopened tomb without disturbing the enclosure at all, and without the guards noticing who were standing just on the other side of the stone.

Do you think the world won't notice millions of christian disappearing at the rapture?

 

[3 Resurrections]

Do you think the world won't notice millions of christian disappearing at the rapture?

The "rapture" already took place at the resurrection on Daniel 12:11-12's predicted 1,335th day back in AD 70. No, the world did not notice the saints being retrieved by the angels from every grave around the world where they had either been buried or left to rot over the past 4,000 years. Those burial sites did not need to be broken open or disturbed for the saints to exit those graves, any more than Christ needed to break open the sepulchre to exit the tomb Himself on His resurrection day. The material which composes a glorified, immortal body which has been "changed" has capabilities and characteristics which the normal human body does not possess while in its mortal state.

 

[Eleanor]

No, a translation-type of change for the living is NOT being taught here (1 Co 15:51-52),

Your flawed methodology of seizing phrases from Scripture devoid of their contextual meaning, to support your personal theology, as in Heb 9:27, addressed in post #19,
as well as your loose handling of the actual words of Scripture, as in Jn 21:22-23, in exactly the same way and resulting in exactly the same error as the brothers likewise made there,
reveal a wrestling (twisting) of the word of God (2 Pe 3:16) which produces false doctrine, as in your egregious three resurrections nowhere presented in NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16).

A whole doctrine has been built upon the misunderstanding of this one passage in 1 Corinthians 15.

The error is yours regarding 1 Co 15:51-52, as demonstrated in post #19.

Likewise, the whole false doctrine built upon the misunderstanding of Scripture is yours, regarding three resurrections nowhere presented in apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16).

 

[3 Resurrections]

Your flawed methodology of seizing phrases from Scripture devoid of their contextual meaning, to support your personal theology, as in Heb 9:27, addressed in post #19,

Are you saying it is my "personal theology" that "As in Adam, ALL DIE"? How is this flawed? The scripture truth is that as long as one is descended from fallen Adam, that a death sentence has passed upon them, and that person will meet that one-time-only death appointment sooner or later. It is only a vain teaching that anyone will escape this required process.

I repeat, the entire context of 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 spends much time explaining how that "change" takes place for the DEAD bodies of the believers in the GRAVE. There is NOTHING in this text which describes a translation change for the living who have not yet experienced death. You are vainly imagining it to be there, when it is not.

I present three resurrection events from scripture because that is the symbolism portrayed by the three required Mosaic harvest festivals of Passover, Pentecost, and the Feast of Tabernacles. James the brother of Christ told us that God as the husbandman would wait with long patience for the "precious fruit of the earth" until the earth received the early and latter rains - which rainy seasons were what those three required Mosaic harvest festivals were all based upon. This IS authoritative to me, as coming from James the brother of Christ. He was only copying the Hosea 6:3 reference which spoke of God coming to us just like the rains - the former and the latter rains in Israel.

Israel's agricultural system had three harvests, just as humanity in total will experience three separate bodily resurrection events of the saints' bodies harvested out of the grave.

 

[Eleanor]

Are you saying it is my "personal theology" that "As in Adam, ALL DIE"? How is this flawed? The scripture truth is that as long as one is descended from fallen Adam, that a death sentence has passed upon them, and that person will meet that one-time-only death appointment sooner or later. It is only a vain teaching that anyone will escape this required process.

Or. . .does the vain teaching reside in making the authoritative teaching of the apostle Paul in error in his revelation of the mystery in 1 Co 15:51-52?

All men must die once until death is swallowed up in victory at the resurrection.

Precisely. . .
the dead rise,
thereby "death being swallowed up in victory" (1 Co 15:54, Heb 2:14),
whereupon all the living saints no longer die,
so their natural sinful mortal bodes are transformed "in the twinkling of an eye" into their spiritual sinless immortal bodies for the rapture,
just as Paul reveals (1 Co 15:51-52)?

I repeat, the entire context of 1 Corinthians 15:51-55 spends much time explaining how that "change" takes place for the DEAD bodies of the believers in the GRAVE. There is NOTHING in this text which describes a translation change for the living who have not yet experienced death. You are vainly imagining it to be there, when it is not.

Another mishandling of the text, as was done in Jn 21:22-23.

1) When treating of the end of life in the NT, death is often referred to as "sleep" (e.g., Jn 11:11-15, Mt 9:18, 24, Mt 27:52, 1 Co 15:18,
1 Th 4:14)
2) In 1 Co 15:51-52 referring to the resurrection, "we shall not all sleep" means "we shall not all die."
3) To set Heb 9:27 against 1 Co 15:51-52 is a distorting of the Scriptures (2 Pe 3:16), for the sake of one's contra-NT personal theology.
4) Such distortion does not end well (2 Pe 3:16).

I present three resurrection events from scripture because that is the symbolism portrayed by the three required Mosaic harvest festivals of Passover, Pentecost, and the Feast of Tabernacles.

Passover was not a harvest feast,
Firstfruits two days later was the harvest feast, symbolizing the Branch (first fruits) of the Lord (Isa 11:1-5) offered as firstfruits of the one resurrection at the end (1 Co 15:23).
Pentecost, wheat harvest, symbolized the full harvest of the cross in the pouring out of the Holy Spirit on the church (wheat, not tares).
Tabernacles (Ingathering), grape harvest, symbolized the final gathering in of the nations to judgment at the second coming.

James the brother of Christ told us that God as the husbandman would wait with long patience for the "precious fruit of the earth" until the earth received the early and latter rains - which rainy seasons were what those three required Mosaic harvest festivals were all based upon. This IS authoritative to me, as coming from James the brother of Christ.

More so than Paul who enjoyed the teaching authority of the apostles (Lk 10:16)?
James was not an apostle, and does not enjoy the apostolic authority granted by Jesus (Lk 10:16).
His authority derives from the early Christians including his writings in the Scriptures.

He was only copying the Hosea 6:3 reference which spoke of God coming to us just like the rains - the former and the latter rains in Israel.
Israel's agricultural system had three harvests, just as humanity in total will experience three separate bodily resurrection events of the saints' bodies harvested out of the grave.

The feasts were not about resurrection(s).
They were about fruits of the gospel harvest.

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Read it again, that is not what he said. You left out the "if."
You are handling his words as carelessly as John points our that the brothers were doing there (Jn 21:22-23).
Tsk, tsk, tsk.
Loose handling of the word of God does not yield correct understanding, as it did not in Jn 21:22-23.

I'll have a little more to say on this subject later—additional biblical details, in fact. Thanks.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Or. . .does the vain teaching reside in making the authoritative teaching of the apostle Paul in error in his revelation of the mystery in 1 Co 15:51-52?

You are putting a construct on Paul's writing that isn't there. I deny your interpretation of Paul. I don't deny Paul's teaching, which was specifically related to the process of the DEAD in the GRAVE being changed in a resurrection process that ALL saints would experience eventually.

The minute you propose a mass group of saints who escape that death process in a translation type change at a "rapture", you are denying the many scriptures which teach that "DEATH passed upon ALL men". You are the one which is pitting one scripture against another. What I am writing here keeps them reconciled with each other.

There is no escape from this consequence of the Fall. All of mankind "IN ADAM" will DIE physically as a result of being descendants of fallen Adam. In like manner, all those "IN CHRIST" will be made alive in a resurrection process.

Passover was not a harvest feast,

Do you deny that Christ was resurrected in connection with the Passover celebration? Do you deny that the many Matthew 27:52-53 saints were also resurrected that same day as Christ? These were all called the "First-fruits", because that was the "FIRST resurrection" event in AD 33.

The First-fruits handful of the barley harvest was waved in the temple in connection with Passover back in the OT. This sheaf handful of barley was offered along with a single he-lamb without blemish (Leviticus 23:10-12). This was meant to symbolize the resurrection of that handful of resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints that same day as Christ, the single He-lamb without blemish, in promise of an even greater harvest to come.

The feasts were not about resurrection(s).

Paul himself contradicts you in this. Why do you think Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 compared death and the resurrection to a seed that is planted, that turns into something different when it grows to maturity in the harvest? The harvest feasts were indeed comparable to the bodily resurrection of the saints. Passover was connected to the barley harvest, Pentecost was connected to the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Tabernacles was the "feast of ingathering" of the rest of the crops at the end of the agricultural year. The three bodily resurrection events for the saints were each timed to fall on the same occasion of the year in their respective turns.

If you deny the book of James' own connection of harvest resurrections connected with Christ's returns, then to be honest, you should cut that book out of your Bible if you don't consider it to be inspired writing.

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Origin Of The Rapture Doctrine​

In 1997, in an issue of my publication The Reformer, I issued a challenge to anyone who could document any evidence that the “Rapture” dogma, as publicized today, was taught by any “church leader” or “church father” prior to many decades ago. No one came forward. It is now 2023. I’m still waiting.

In my research, I discovered that in 1742-44 Morgan Edwards wrote a book on the modern-day “Rapture” doctrine. It was published in 1788. Thus began the contemporary “Rapture” melodrama.

Morgan became a Baptist leader of notoriety, confirming my conviction that the “Rapture” doctrine is largely a Baptist doctrine, not a doctrine of Jesus and his apostles. As far as my research implies, there’s no record prior to 1742 of the “Rapture” doctrine being taught or its details being published by anyone, not even by the “church fathers.” It strikes me rather odd that if the “Rapture” doctrine is a divine teaching, why did our “church fathers” fail to write about it? They wrote about all other major doctrines of the apostles. Why would they overlook a major topic as important as the “Rapture?”

It should be noted at this junction that the “Rapture” teaching has Jesus descending twice more, once to “rapture” saints and once to put an end to the so-called “Tribulation” and “Armageddon,” followed by a thousand-year earthly government. In this matter, the “Rapture” advocates select a few distinct, highly symbolic passages from the Book of Revelation, tie them in with the Thessalonian verses, and the screenplay is consummated.

It is wise to remember that nowhere in scripture is it taught, or remotely indicated, that Jesus will personally and visibly return twice more. His second advent is alluded to time after time, but never a third advent. Nor do the scriptures speak of saints ascending into heaven twice, once at the so-called “Rapture,” and once again “when the thousand years are over,” as the doctrine is advocated. (More later.)​

 

[Josheb]

No, I don't agree with you that Satan is currently bound today.

According to Jude,

Jude 1:6-7
And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Has "the great day" arrived? I do not think so. The last days have come and gone, but the last day, the great day, has not.

Satan is dead as a doornail right now, as well as his devils. God slew that Dragon long ago back in AD 70, as well as the host of high ones that had followed Satan in disobedience.

Got scripture for that?

In Revelation satan is bound until the end of the millennium, which non-premillennialists view as figurative, not a literal 1000 years. Assuming satan was bound long, long ago, prior to Christ's incarnation we might conclude the millennium ended at Calvary, or Pentecost, or even 70 AD but for one thing: the gospel didn't begin being preached until the New Testament and the time spent between Calvary and the destruction of Jerusalem is less than 40 years. One has to bend and twist scripture quite a bit to make forty years fit 1000 years, and even more so if the 1000 years is not literal but better understood as an exceedingly long time far longer than a literal 1000 years. Furthermore, satan isn't judged, tossed into the fiery lake until the final judgment when all the dead, not just satan, are judged. The last enemy defeated is death. I am unaware of any scripture stating that has already happened and, while I am not a fan of post hoc arguments, I am unaware of any history stating death is dead.

This is the symbolism portrayed by Daniel's statue being destroyed by one single blow of Christ the "stone" kingdom.

I see. Your position is inferential.

Christ currently wears all those "many crowns" today.

If Jesus is God, then there has never been a moment in creation anywhere or at any time when he was not King of all kings, and Lord of all lords. It is incomprehensible for God not to rule all - everything everywhere at all times.

This was in fulfillment of Revelation 19:12, which was one of the prophecies of Revelation which was "at hand" in John's days.

In Revelation 10 there is a new prophecy, one John did not record. It's contents are not described in Revelation. That which was "at hand" in John's days was what was revealed but it did not include the end of all things. Please correct me if I err here but it reads as if a full-pret pov is being asserted. Aside from the fact there's an undisclosed prophecy in Revelation, there is also the problem of basic math because one would have to conclude the binding of satan....

Revelation 20:3
....and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

....has ended by 70 AD. His binding and his liberation BOTH were accomplished prior to 70 AD. That would mean both the period of time when the gospel was preached unfettered and its (re-)fettering have both come and gone and past a long time ago.

Now I know there is some debate about this but John's and Luke's gospels are generally thought to have been written after Revelation. I, personally, am an "early-dater" and believe everything was penned prior to the destruction of Israel in 70 AD, and Luke's, not John's writings were among the last to be written. The position believing satan was killed in 70 AD would not reconcile with late dating at all because the gospel thrived after the destruction of Jerusalem. In the centuries that followed the gospel's reach expanded exponentially in comparison to the NT era. I see nothing in scripture stating the deceit of the nations was re-fettered and, again, while I am not a fan of post hoc arguments, I see no evidence of that in history, either.

I therefore conclude satan is still bound and still defeated but still alive - at least from the temporal perspective inside creation. The last days have come and gone. we're in an age(s) that hadn't then come and there will be ages following these ones, but the last day has not come. External to creation is an entirely different manner because God exists external to creation (and time) so for Him this is all said and done (no pun intended ).



And I again point out we're getting far afield of the op. The op is about the rapture, not satan's binding or his death. I, therefore, will not be belaboring those differences for more than a post or two, and then only in hope of some degree of consensus. The op is correct: the modern (futurist, or Dispensationalist) view of the rapture is incorrect. Jesus is not coming to earth to rapture away Christians and then go back to heaven and then coming back to earth to wage a war and then either going back to heaven before coming again to live on earth for a literal thousand years and then go back to heaven for the fiery judgement before descending once again in the new city of peace. Personally, I think that eschatology is insane and wonder why anyone, including myself, ever believed it was exegetically rational.

So, unless relevant to the op's commentary on the rapture, let's not spend much time on satan's disposition (or at least do not expect me to do so).

 

[3 Resurrections]

Has "the great day" arrived? I do not think so. The last days have come and gone, but the last day, the great day, has not.

Yes, that "great day" did arrive back in AD 70. God sent "Elijah" as John the Baptist before that "great and dreadful day of the Lord" arrived, just as Malachi 4:5 predicted. That "great day" came and "burned as an oven", leaving neither genealogical "root" nor ancestral "branch" of descendants for the Israelite tribes. All the wicked, including Satan and his devils, were turned into ashes under the soles of the feet of the saints (which Ezekiel 28:18-19 predicted for the anointed cherub). Romans 16:20 (written around AD 60) predicted to those Roman believers that God was going to crush Satan under their feet "shortly", which He did by the close of the AD 70 period. Satan is a dead foe, and has been since AD 70.

In Revelation satan is bound until the end of the millennium, which non-premillennialists view as figurative, not a literal 1000 years.

I'm not premillennial, but this definitely WAS a literal thousand-year period of Satan being bound from deceiving the nations. That literal thousand years ended with Satan's release for a "little season", which John in Revelation 12:12 wrote had already begun on earth at that time. That is the very reason why John warned the believers of his day, "Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and of the sea! for the Devil has come down unto you, having great wrath because he knoweth he hath but a short time". That was a present tense wrathful presence of Satan released on earth to harass and deceive its inhabitants in John's days. Fortunately, this harassment was only going to last a "short time", which was the same as the "little season" of Satan's release at the end of the millennium.

The literal thousand-year millennium ended in AD 33 at Christ's resurrection-day ascension. The millennium ended when Christ had ascended to heaven and the Devil had descended to earth. Very simple. That binding of Satan's deception of the nations began back with the foundation stone of Solomon's temple being laid down in 968 / 967 BC. That foundation stone prefigured Christ as becoming the "chief cornerstone" of the spiritual temple not made with hands due to His finished sacrifice.

If Jesus is God, then there has never been a moment in creation anywhere or at any time when he was not King of all kings, and Lord of all lords. It is incomprehensible for God not to rule all - everything everywhere at all times.

Well, you realize that Christ was made "for a little while lower than the angels" in His incarnate state when He humbled Himself to our station. Of course, there has never been a time when God has not reigned over His creation. But there has been a point in time when that reign has been manifested in different ways, such as the exaltation of the risen Christ to the Great High Priesthood role as "King of kings". This made Him greater than any previous Levitical high priest, since Christ's Great High Priesthood was a deathless one after the superior order of Melchizedek. Christ was given the single crown of that high priesthood kingdom on His resurrection-day ascension (as in Daniel 7), but later on in Revelation 19, He is pictured with all those confiscated "many crowns". This represented the loss of Satan's presence and personal influence on the kingdoms of this world, which ended with Satan's and all his minions' deaths occurring in AD 70.

God had allowed Satan's presence and influence as the "Prince of this world" on the kingdoms of the world in the same way that He has allowed human wickedness and corrupt rulers to hold sway for certain periods of time. It's an incremental process of redemption. God already got rid of Satanic and demonic evil back in AD 70, and God will bring human evil to a conclusion with the world finally purged of this in the final judgment to come.

 

[Josheb]

I'm not premillennial, but this definitely WAS a literal thousand-year period of Satan being bound from deceiving the nations. That literal thousand years ended with Satan's release for a "little season", which John in Revelation 12:12 wrote had already begun on earth at that time.

When did it begin?

 

[Eleanor]

You are putting a construct on Paul's writing that isn't there. I deny your interpretation of Paul. I don't deny Paul's teaching, which was specifically related to the process of the DEAD in the GRAVE being changed in a resurrection process that ALL saints would experience eventually.

The minute you propose a mass group of saints who escape that death process in a translation type change at a "rapture", you are denying the many scriptures which teach that "DEATH passed upon ALL men".

Previously addressed. . .no denial whatsoever, the death process is prior to resurrection. At the resurrection death is swallowed up in victory, after the resurrection there is no death of the body, only its transformation into the immortal spiritual body.

You are the one which is pitting one scripture against another. What I am writing here keeps them reconciled with each other.
There is no escape from this consequence of the Fall. All of mankind "IN ADAM" will DIE physically as a result of being descendants of fallen Adam. In like manner, all those "IN CHRIST" will be made alive in a resurrection process.
Do you deny that Christ was resurrected in connection with the Passover celebration? Do you deny that the many Matthew 27:52-53 saints were also resurrected that same day as Christ?
These were all called the "First-fruits", because that was the "FIRST resurrection" event in AD 33.

Contraire. . .no believers are called the first fruits of resurrection.
Only Jesus is the first fruits of the resurrection (1 Co 15:23).

The First-fruits handful of the barley harvest was waved in the temple in connection with Passover back in the OT. This sheaf handful of barley was offered along with a single he-lamb without blemish (Leviticus 23:10-12). This was meant to symbolize the resurrection of that handful of resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints that same day as Christ, the single He-lamb without blemish, in promise of an even greater harvest to come.

Contraire. . .the sheaf (branch) symbolizes Jesus, the Branch of the Lord (Isa 11:1-5), who was the firstfruit of that resurrection harvest of the redeemed at the second coming (1 Co 15:23).

Paul himself contradicts you in this. Why do you think Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 compared death and the resurrection to a seed that is planted, that turns into something different when it grows to maturity in the harvest?

Paul's analogy in 1 Co 15 is not about seed and harvest, it is about seed and plant, illustrating the difference between the natural body and the spiritual body at the resurrection, not the difference between resurrections.

The harvest feasts were indeed comparable to the bodily resurrection of the saints. Passover was connected to the barley harvest, Pentecost was connected to the wheat harvest, and the Feast of Tabernacles was the "feast of ingathering" of the rest of the crops at the end of the agricultural year. The three bodily resurrection events for the saints were each timed to fall on the same occasion of the year in their respective turns.

Not according to NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16), which presents only one resurrection of all mankind, at the sheep and goats final judgment (Mt 25:31-46).

 

[CrowCross]

The "rapture" already took place at the resurrection on Daniel 12:11-12's predicted 1,335th day back in AD 70. No, the world did not notice the saints being retrieved by the angels from every grave around the world where they had either been buried or left to rot over the past 4,000 years. Those burial sites did not need to be broken open or disturbed for the saints to exit those graves, any more than Christ needed to break open the sepulchre to exit the tomb Himself on His resurrection day. The material which composes a glorified, immortal body which has been "changed" has capabilities and characteristics which the normal human body does not possess while in its mortal state.

I hope your disbelief doesn't keep you from the real rapture of 1 Thes 4...

You're so focused on what you think happened your about to miss whats about to happen.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Contraire. . .no believers are called the first fruits of resurrection.
Only Jesus is the first fruits of the resurrection (1 Co 15:23).

You are forgetting the 144,000 who were called "the FIRST-fruits unto God and to the Lamb" (Revelation 14:4). The many Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints composed this number of 144,000. These stood on Mount Zion in Jerusalem that day with the resurrected Christ after they had come out of Jewish graves around Jerusalem which had been broken open at Christ's crucifixion. Their bodies were redeemed from out of the earth in a resurrection, and they were sinless "without fault" in their glorified resurrected state. They were called "virgins" also, since there is no marriage or giving in marriage in the resurrected state.

Contraire. . .the sheaf (branch) symbolizes Jesus, the Branch of the Lord (Isa 11:1-5), who was the firstfruit of that resurrection harvest of the redeemed at the second coming (1 Co 15:23).

The sheaf handful was NOT a "branch". It was a handful of stalks of the first ripened grain of the barley harvest, offered along with the single he-lamb. That sheaf handful represented the 144,000 First-fruits who were raised the same day as "Christ the First-fruits" (who was pictured as the single He-lamb without blemish). These all shared the same title because they shared the same "First resurrection" event in AD 33.

This resurrection "harvest" of the Matthew 27:52-53 was also pictured in Revelation 14:14, with the crowned Son of Man sitting on a cloud of heaven, and using the sickle to harvest the ripened, dried grain on the earth. We know this can't be the second coming resurrection event, because that "harvest" of the saints would be reaped by the angels (Matthew 13:39).

There was no angel assisting the crowned Son of Man in this Revelation 14:14 "harvest" of dried grain when He was reaping the earth with that sickle.

Paul's analogy in 1 Co 15 is not about seed and harvest, it is about seed and plant, illustrating the difference between the natural body and the spiritual body at the resurrection, not the difference between resurrections.

Fully-grown plants ARE harvested. See the description again in Revelation 14:14 where the Son of Man "harvested" the ripened, dried grain by reaping the earth with that sickle. This was a resurrection of the Matthew 27:52-53 saints that the newly-crowned Son of Man performed on the same day of His own resurrection.

Not according to NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16), which presents only one resurrection of all mankind, at the sheep and goats final judgment (Mt 25:31-46).

You are dismissing entirely the bodily resurrection of the Matthew 27:52-53 saints as the "First resurrection" event when they were raised by Christ that day? Why would you do that? The mere fact that scripture calls this the "FIRST resurrection" means that there is at the very least a second resurrection to follow. In agreement with common testimony in the NT, Paul wrote that this second resurrection event was "about to be" in those first century days at Christ's second coming (which was back in AD 70 on that year's Pentecost day).

 

[3 Resurrections]

I hope your disbelief doesn't keep you from the real rapture of 1 Thes 4...

You're so focused on what you think happened your about to miss whats about to happen.

I know very well what is about to happen within a decade. We transition over to the last, seventh millennium of fallen mankind's history on this planet. We will then be entering a fallow, Sabbath type mode of existence when things will revert to a more basic level. Think sustainable living. And if at all possible, network with neighbors and family more frequently. We are going to need each other, and God will use this millennium to spread His kingdom even further, as He planned all along, leading up to the culmination of fallen mankind's history in this world at the close of this coming seventh millennium. The rapture has nothing to do with our own future; it was fulfilled long ago.

 

[CrowCross]

I know very well what is about to happen within a decade. We transition over to the last, seventh millennium of fallen mankind's history on this planet. We will then be entering a fallow, Sabbath type mode of existence when things will revert to a more basic level. Think sustainable living. And if at all possible, network with neighbors and family more frequently. We are going to need each other, and God will use this millennium to spread His kingdom even further, as He planned all along, leading up to the culmination of fallen mankind's history in this world at the close of this coming seventh millennium. The rapture has nothing to do with our own future; it was fulfilled long ago.

That's not biblical.

It's doctrine of the anti-christ and his false 1,000 year reign......the elect will not be deceived by this.

 

[3 Resurrections]

When did it begin?

As I wrote above in post #32, the Revelation 20 literal thousand years began back in 968 / 967 BC with the foundation stone of Solomon's temple being laid down. Scripture makes a great to-do about the specific dates for foundation stones being laid down; Solomon's, then Zerubbabel's, then Christ as the "chief cornerstone" of the spiritual temple not made with hands. Jesus in His finished sacrifice for us in being made "the head of the corner" (which "stone" was rejected by the "builders") was the final fulfillment of the symbolism provided by those former physical foundation stones of a physical temple system which had God's backing for that literal thousand years leading up to Christ's resurrection.

Satan's deception of the nations was bound at that point of Solomon's temple foundation stone being laid down, and continued to be bound by the increasing ministry of the major and minor prophets in those years to follow. Even when sent into exile for their disobedience, Israel in its exiled punishment still brought the fame of the God of Israel into all those far-flung nations of the world. Two pagan kings - Nebuchadnezzar and Darius - both made world-wide proclamations praising the God of heaven for His actions towards men and nations.

Daniel's influence in the courts of pagan kings was a very public testimony to the nations concerning the God of Israel.

A converted, healed Naaman became a fervent witness for God in the king's Syrian court, due to a single comment by a nameless Jewish maidservant recommending that her master make a trip to see the prophet of God in Samaria.

Cyrus the Persian also knew very well that his victory over Babylon was due to God's plan for him, even before Cyrus was born. The decree Cyrus published lauding the God of Israel went out to all the nations of the world also, in authorization of the nation's return to their homeland.

Likewise, King Ahasuerus sent out a decree in support of the Jews defending themselves, which caused many in the land to become Jews. Mordecai, Esther's uncle who became established in power at the side of the king, also had the means to spread the knowledge of the God of the Jews to those high in the government of the kingdom.

There is a pattern here presented in scripture of the increasing knowledge of the God of Israel among the pagan nations of the world, beginning with the fame of Solomon's temple being built. When ignorance of the God of Israel among those nations was being dispelled, this limited Satan's deception of the nations which had kept them in that state of ignorance before then. Christ's ministry of casting out devils in His days was proof that Satan, the "strong man", had already "FIRST" been bound much earlier, because Christ and the disciples were "spoiling his goods" by casting out devils.

 

[Eleanor]

You are forgetting the 144,000 who were called "the FIRST-fruits unto God and to the Lamb" (Revelation 14:4).

Rev is prophecy, and I don't take my understanding of Christian doctrine from prophetic riddles not spoken clearly (Nu 12:8).
I take it only from NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16).

The many Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints composed this number of 144,000. These stood on Mount Zion in Jerusalem that day with the resurrected Christ after they had come out of Jewish graves around Jerusalem which had been broken open at Christ's crucifixion. Their bodies were redeemed from out of the earth in a resurrection, and they were sinless "without fault" in their glorified resurrected state. They were called "virgins" also, since there is no marriage or giving in marriage in the resurrected state.
The sheaf handful was NOT a "branch".

Branch and sheaf are the same word in Hebrew: amir (Isa 17:9, Zech 12:6).

It was a handful of stalks of the first ripened grain of the barley harvest, offered along with the single he-lamb. That sheaf handful represented the 144,000 First-fruits who were raised the same day as "Christ the First-fruits" (who was pictured as the single He-lamb without blemish). These all shared the same title because they shared the same "First resurrection" event in AD 33.
This resurrection "harvest" of the Matthew 27:52-53 was also pictured in Revelation 14:14, with the crowned Son of Man sitting on a cloud of heaven, and using the sickle to harvest the ripened, dried grain on the earth. We know this can't be the second coming resurrection event, because that "harvest" of the saints would be reaped by the angels (Matthew 13:39).
There was no angel assisting the crowned Son of Man in this Revelation 14:14 "harvest" of dried grain when He was reaping the earth with that sickle.
Fully-grown plants ARE harvested. See the description again in Revelation 14:14 where the Son of Man "harvested" the ripened, dried grain by reaping the earth with that sickle. This was a resurrection of the Matthew 27:52-53 saints that the newly-crowned Son of Man performed on the same day of His own resurrection.

You are dismissing entirely the bodily resurrection of the Matthew 27:52-53 saints as the "First resurrection" event when they were raised by Christ that day?
Why would you do that? The mere fact that scripture calls this the "FIRST resurrection" means that there is at the very least a second resurrection to follow.

Rev being prophetic riddle (Nu 12:8) subject to more than one interpretation, I understand the 1000 years of Rev 20 to be figurative of the church age, where the first resurrection (v.5) is from eternal death to eternal life in the new birth.

In agreement with common testimony in the NT, Paul wrote that this second resurrection event was "about to be" in those first century days at Christ's second coming (which was back in AD 70 on that year's Pentecost day).

NT apostolic teaching authoritative to the church (Lk 10:16) presents only one resurrection, occurring at the one second coming, with the one rapture and the one final judgment of the sheep and goats; i.e., all mankind.
And, Jesus having said that he would come soon, the NT writers believed that this one second coming would occur in their lifetime, that it was "about to be."
That was not the case, for no final judgment of all mankind with the second coming, resurrection, and rapture occurred in their lifetime.