GOD MADE NO COVENANT WITH GENTILES

[EarlyActs]

Pella may not be far enough..

Hosea 9:17 ESV
My God will reject them because they have not listened to him; they shall be wanderers among the nations.

I don't know what you mean; I think you are trying to write out a perceived prediction about our future.

Or you are thinking it is about the race-nation. When Jesus told his followers to get out of the city in the 1st cent. turmoil, it was his followers. Maybe some Jews had sense to leave too, but he was speaking to his believers.

I'm speaking historically. I treat Mt 24A as historical to v29. Because of the overwhelming proof of this in Luke's version. The believers left the country for Pella and then other places, is recorded by early church fathers.

 

[donadams]

Those verses do not describe any covenant with Gentiles. This is what a covenant with God looks like:

2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. Gen. 17:2.

See that. It's expressed as a covenant.

And God made the new and eternal covenant with all who believe and are baptized the Jew first then the greek
Lk 2:10
Jn 1:29
Jn 3:16
All / whole world
Jn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

It don’t as many Jews as received him
Thanks

 

[prism]

I don't know what you mean; I think you are trying to write out a perceived prediction about our future.

Whose future? The Gentiles? The Hosea prophesy (and others), speak of the scattering of the Jews throughout the world which fully happened around 130AD, yet there were additional promises to bring them back to the land of Israel being fulfilled in the 20th Century.

 

[EarlyActs]

I'm just wondering why Paul uses terms like 'you Gentiles' and 'the Jews' (distinctions) if 'all Israel' means the ones who are justified. Maybe you can explain?

The difficulty of Rom 11 is assignation--what does the pronoun or even the term refer to. Sometimes he does mean the race-nation (but he does not predict a panacea for that). Sometimes he means believers, just like 9:24's "us" means believers (supported by 4 OT proofs). He even seems to switch one line from the next like 11:26.

Remember, in 9:6 there are two Israels to keep track of, going forward.

Whose future? The Gentiles? The Hosea prophesy (and others), speak of the scattering of the Jews throughout the world which fully happened around 130AD, yet there were additional promises to bring them back to the land of Israel being fulfilled in the 20th Century.

I don't think so. But let's say there is. Is it very meaningful to the ones who died to think that X000 years in the future the scattered offspring will go back to Israel? Do you find the NT pulsing with that expectation?

I know that pulsing is not there and in its place is the wonderful community of all believers on Christ, Eph ch 2B-3A. I do not even find it in the Rev. I know it is not in the ordinary-language letters passages on the future: Rom 2, 8, I Cor 15, 2 Pet 3, Heb 9.

 

[EarlyActs]

an additional question here, Prism, is what is the significance of modern (current) Israel in relation to what you just quoted? Have you decided to go back on NT theology and re-accept Judaistic theology--so that prophecy gets fulfilled? I don't see that in Hebrews.

 

[prism]

The difficulty of Rom 11 is assignation--what does the pronoun or even the term refer to. Sometimes he does mean the race-nation (but he does not predict a panacea for that). Sometimes he means believers, just like 9:24's "us" means believers (supported by 4 OT proofs). He even seems to switch one line from the next like 11:26.

Rom 9:24 speaks of calling His elect from the Gentiles as well as the Jews, there is no dispute about that.
Context in Rom 11 makes it very clear as to pronouns and who they refer to, e.g. ...

Romans 11:8-9,11-12,15-16,23-25,28,30-31 ESV
as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day." [9] And David says, "Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them; [11] So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. [12] Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean! [15] For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? [16] If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches. [23] And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. [24] For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree. [25] Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. [28] As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. [30] For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, [31] so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.

Remember, in 9:6 there are two Israels to keep track of, going forward.

Which is simply speaking of the natural descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob who have true faith..the remnant spoken of in Rom 11:4.. nothing to do with us believing Gentiles.

 

[prism]

an additional question here, Prism, is what is the significance of modern (current) Israel in relation to what you just quoted? Have you decided to go back on NT theology and re-accept Judaistic theology--so that prophecy gets fulfilled? I don't see that in Hebrews.

I have always tended to take Scripture literally. I haven't gone back anywhere

 

[jeremiah1five]

And God made the new and eternal covenant with all who believe and are baptized the Jew first then the greek
Lk 2:10
Jn 1:29
Jn 3:16
All / whole world
Jn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

It don’t as many Jews as received him
Thanks

That's not a covenant.
That's the blessings of Abraham's cup that runneth over but God made no covenant with Gentiles.
Stop trying, Don, you won't find it.

 

[EarlyActs]

Rom 9:24 speaks of calling His elect from the Gentiles as well as the Jews, there is no dispute about that.
Context in Rom 11 makes it very clear as to pronouns and who they refer to, e.g. ...

Romans 11:8-9,11-12,15-16,23-25,28,30-31 ESV
as it is written, "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day." [9] And David says, "Let their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them; [11] So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. [12] Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean! [15] For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? [16] If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches. [23] And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. [24] For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree. [25] Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. [28] As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. [30] For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, [31] so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.


Which is simply speaking of the natural descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob who have true faith..the remnant spoken of in Rom 11:4.. nothing to do with us believing Gentiles.

Not so. I know there is an intra-distinction, but it has to do with the remnant, and guess who the remnant is connected to in v24? "Us" with the 4 OT proofs.

The pronouns of ch 11 that relate to Israel have to be sorted between the race-nation and the believers. That is why the olive tree has both wild and natural and there are natural limb cut off, laying on the ground, and warnings to wild limbs that they might be! So there are actually 3 targets to sort between.

Long day for me today, but in the morning I will try to list a 'sorting' of those for Israel as race-nation vs remnant.

 

[prism]

Not so. I know there is an intra-distinction, but it has to do with the remnant, and guess who the remnant is connected to in v24? "Us" with the 4 OT proofs.

The pronouns of ch 11 that relate to Israel have to be sorted between the race-nation and the believers. That is why the olive tree has both wild and natural and there are natural limb cut off, laying on the ground, and warnings to wild limbs that they might be! So there are actually 3 targets to sort between.

Long day for me today, but in the morning I will try to list a 'sorting' of those for Israel as race-nation vs remnant.

So are you saying Paul was wrong
when he claimed to be an Israelite (v.1)?
Or when he claimed God has not rejected His people (in context, the Jews) (v.2)?
Or when he says 'at the present time there is a remnant (again, in context, the Jews) (v.5)?
Or 'What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,? (v.7)

Or in v.11...'So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.' ? etc.

You ask who the remnant are in v.24?...

Romans 11:24 ESV
For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

That would be only part of the remnant which v.23 would be the other part...

11:23
And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

It's stated conditionally, but I believe that will be the purpose of the upcoming (great) tribulation, and as stated in the last half of the verse...'or God has the power to graft them in'. Election is not a One-Way street.

Also:
Romans 9:27 ESV
And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved,

I'm really hoping not for another lecture, only to find out we are pretty much on the same page as so often has happened to me in the past.

 

[Ladodgers6]

The whole of Scripture is God's Love letter to His Bride Israel.
He died for His Church Israel.
Gentiles are grafted in.
Israel is at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb through Covenant.
Gentiles are there by invitation.

Doesn't Paul in Romans 3 states that both Jews and the Gentiles are in the same boat? Didn't Christ tear down the divide, the curtain?

 

[jeremiah1five]

Doesn't Paul in Romans 3 states that both Jews and the Gentiles are in the same boat? Didn't Christ tear down the divide, the curtain?

God removed the middle wall partition that divided covenant Hebrew/Jew and non-covenant Gentile in order to fulfill prophecy to bring Gentiles into the "fold." I agree they are both in the "same boat" now, but it is a "Jewish" covenant for God made no covenant with Gentiles. The New Testament was written by "Jews" to and for Israel to whom Messiah was prophesied and came. The first believers in Messiah/Christ were Jews as it is their covenant. The "ism" of Judaism remained until the destruction of the Temple by Gentiles in AD 70 and until then everything that occurred in their history was in fulfillment of their prophecies. God is betrothed to Israel and is His Bride. The Church of God began in the desert at the time of the Tabernacle, and they were called the "Great Congregation" as there were over 3-4 million Hebrews God delivered from Egypt. At the Marriage Supper of the Lamb Israel is there by covenant. Gentiles are there by invitation.

1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
The 'kingdom of heaven' is strictly a "Jewish" concept.
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding (Israel): and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
Throughout Israel's history God has sent them numerous prophets and messengers until He finally sent His Son.
5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
Every prophet and messenger God sent was killed.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
Most probably the destruction of their Temple and cities in AD 70.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
If the above is correct these would have to be the Time of the Gentiles, the era we now live in.
10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Through the designation by the king of addressing this individual as "friend" I would say this person is Gentile who did not have on his wedding garment (a metaphor for righteousness.)
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I do not believe this means eternal punishment but regret and remorse. This Scripture may identify them and these people are not in the Lake of Fire but outside the city:

For without [New Jerusalem] are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. Rev. 22:15.

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Mt 22:1-14.

 

[donadams]

That's not a covenant.
That's the blessings of Abraham's cup that runneth over but God made no covenant with Gentiles.
Stop trying, Don, you won't find it.

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

“Are called”

Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

All are called!

Not just Jews!

 

[EarlyActs]

So are you saying Paul was wrong
when he claimed to be an Israelite (v.1)?
Or when he claimed God has not rejected His people (in context, the Jews) (v.2)?
Or when he says 'at the present time there is a remnant (again, in context, the Jews) (v.5)?
Or 'What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,? (v.7)

Or in v.11...'So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather, through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.' ? etc.

You ask who the remnant are in v.24?...

Romans 11:24 ESV
For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

That would be only part of the remnant which v.23 would be the other part...

11:23
And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.

It's stated conditionally, but I believe that will be the purpose of the upcoming (great) tribulation, and as stated in the last half of the verse...'or God has the power to graft them in'. Election is not a One-Way street.

Also:
Romans 9:27 ESV
And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved,

I'm really hoping not for another lecture, only to find out we are pretty much on the same page as so often has happened to me in the past.

Well to keep it short: if 9:27 is true "all" Israel (the race-nation) cannot be true, right?

When you see "Israel" in ch 11, please switch in either 'the race-nation' or 'beleivers.' That will automatically clarify it. It cannot be both.

 

[donadams]

1 John 2:2

King James Version
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.​

 

[jeremiah1five]

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

“Are called”

Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

All are called!

Not just Jews!

Mediator of a "New Testament" that derived from the Old Testament which was a Hebrew/Jewish Covenant. Notice also the word "transgressions" which has to do with the Old Testament, and the "they" that are called are the Hebrews/Jews of the Old Testament.

Acts 2:39 Peter is speaking to the Jews and 3000 Jews were saved and brought in the New Testament Church which is a continuation of the Old Testament Church that was under the Law in the desert at the time of the Tabernacle. Over 3 million Hebrews/Jews were delivered by God from Egypt.
They were originally called the "Great Congregation."
But God made no covenant with Gentiles.

 

[jeremiah1five]

1 John 2:2​

​

King James Version​

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.​

The "whole world" does not mean the whole population of the planet.
The word "world" must be understood in the context of WHOM Christ was sent to (lost sheep of the House of Israel) and to WHOM He is a "propitiation" for, and this describes Israel who had covenant with God in which He would send a "prophet from among thy brethren" (meaning Israel), specifically the tribe of Judah.
It is a Hebrew/Jewish covenant and the seat of the authority of Christ and His Church Israel is in Jerusalem ruling the Jews as He is their King, NOT in Rome.
God made NO COVENANT with Gentiles.

 

[prism]

Well to keep it short: if 9:27 is true "all" Israel (the race-nation) cannot be true, right?

Thanks for keeping it short, (as a byproduct of this post modern culture) I do better that way .

I don't believe all Israel (natural descendants) will be saved, just a remnant, at least that's my understanding of Scripture...

Romans 11:23 (KJV) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Romans 11:7 (KJV) What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

When you see "Israel" in ch 11, please switch in either 'the race-nation' or 'beleivers.' That will automatically clarify it. It cannot be both.

Ok, maybe 'completed Jews + believing Gentiles' would be helpful? Sorry for the confusion.

 

[EarlyActs]

Go

Thanks for keeping it short, (as a byproduct of this post modern culture) I do better that way .

I don't believe all Israel (natural descendants) will be saved, just a remnant, at least that's my understanding of Scripture...

Romans 11:23 (KJV) And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Romans 11:7 (KJV) What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Ok, maybe 'completed Jews + believing Gentiles' would be helpful? Sorry for the confusion.

Good, I think you are right.

 

[donadams]

Mediator of a "New Testament" that derived from the Old Testament which was a Hebrew/Jewish Covenant. Notice also the word "transgressions" which has to do with the Old Testament, and the "they" that are called are the Hebrews/Jews of the Old Testament.

Acts 2:39 Peter is speaking to the Jews and 3000 Jews were saved and brought in the New Testament Church which is a continuation of the Old Testament Church that was under the Law in the desert at the time of the Tabernacle. Over 3 million Hebrews/Jews were delivered by God from Egypt.
They were originally called the "Great Congregation."
But God made no covenant with Gentiles.

But you say it as if the gentiles are excluded? That’s a question

Refer to Lk 2:
30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;

32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.