All ISRAEL will be saved

[makesends]

Well yes, both Jews and Gentiles.

That's either non-committal, or you didn't get what I said, (or I don't get what you said). Is Calvin not claiming that the remaining living Jews, will be saved in the end (added back in, grafted back in) ? I'm not talking about the inclusion of Jews with Gentiles. I'm asking if Calvin thought that at some point, those Jews remaining alive would be all grafted back in. That's what it sounds like he's saying.

And I don't see that in scripture, though I have been told that is what it is talking about in the passage.

 

[Josheb]

There has always been a 'remnant' concerning the true Israel.

Prove that statement with scripture.

 

[Josheb]

Just because Paul speaks ot 'his time' doens't negate the fact of a past remnant, nor of a future remnant.

But it does preclude everyone from using the Romans 9-11 text for futuristic purposes.

 

[Josheb]

No. All Israel will be saved. All Israel will be Jews born of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They will be Jews of the children of promise. Still Jews. They are the true Israel.

Argumentum ad nauseam.

Repeating the claim again and again does not make it correct. When Paul states "All Israel will be saved," he does so within the context of his prior statement: not all Israel is Israel. Only the Israel that is Israel will be saved. The Israel that is not Israel will not be saved. Why not? Because they are not the children of promise.

Re-read Post #33. I stated, "Which means not all Israel will be saved if Israel is defined as Jews."

and your response to that statement is, "No. All Israel will be saved. All Israel will be Jews born of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They will be Jews of the children of promise. Still Jews. They are the true Israel."


Conflating "Israel" with Jews is wrong. Paul also stated not all the descendants of Abraham are Abraham's descendants. All Israel will not be Jews born of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They will not all be children born of promise. That is the point Paul is making. Neither bloodline nor adherence to the Law is what makes a person a descendant of Abrahams. And neither does salvation come by bloodline or the works of the Law. The word "Jews" is found only once in the entirety of chapter 9.


Romans 9:33-34
And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

There's only one occasion when Paul uses the word "Jew in chapter 10, too.

Romans 10:12
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him.

There are no Jews in Jesus. Neither are there any Gentiles. And there's not a single mention of the word "Jew" in chapter 11. Nowhere in the entire 3-chapter commentary does Paul ever say, "All Israel will be Jews born of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." That statement is a completely self-fabricated addition to God's word. Nowhere do those three chapters state All Israel will be Jews of the children of promise. That too is a complete fabrication. Nowhere does the text stat Jews are the true Israel. What the text does explicitly state is that those in whom God makes the riches of His glory known are not from among the Jews only.

And there are many places in the New Testament where bloodline Jews are excluded from being children of God and receiving salvation from sin. In John chapter 8, for example, Jesus is preaching to a huge crowd, most of whom are Jews and some, but not all, have come to believe his words....

John 8:31-47 (excerpted for the sake of space)
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed him, "If you continue in my word, then you are truly disciples of mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?" Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. I know that you are Abraham's descendants; yet you seek to kill me, because my word has no place in you. I speak the things which I have seen with my Father; therefore, you also do the things which you heard from your father." They answered and said to him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God." Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on my own initiative, but He sent me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I speak the truth, you do not believe me."

And what was the response of those about whom he was speaking?

John 8:48-52
The Jews answered and said to him, "Do we not say rightly that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?" Jesus answered, "I do not have a demon; but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. But I do not seek my glory; there is One who seeks and judges. Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word he will never see death." The Jews said to Him, "Now we know that you have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and you say, 'If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste of death.'"

They said Jesus demon possessed.

1 John 2:22-23
Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

1 John 4:2-3
By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

Those people in John 8 who denied Jesus was from God and claimed he was demon possessed were antichrists. Antichrists do not get saved. Every Jew is not an Israelite of promise and salvation has nothing to do with bloodline or adherence to the Law of Moses. Not all the descendants of Abraham are Abraham's descendants. Paul had concerns for his kinsmen according to the flesh, but the simple fact is not all Israel is Israel. Bloodline, adherence to the Law, AND geo-political national status do not save.

 

[Josheb]

What I said is this, post #(13), "The true Israel of God is born of Abraham, born of the tribes of Israel, and a child of promise."

That statement is correct.

The problem occurs when "Jews" are brought into the mix. Being Jewish has absolutely nothing to do with what Paul was saying in Romans 9-11. Being Jewish is simply, as Paul put it, being a kinsman according to the flesh. The problem is not all those kinsmen of the flesh are Israel.

I am not Jewish. I believe in Jesus and Jesus alone for my salvation from sin and wrath. I am a child of promise and in that regard a descendant of Abraham's. I am not a Jew. Neither am I an Israelite. Most here fit that exact same bill. Paul included Gentiles in Abraham's descendants of promise, but he did not actually include Gentiles among the Israel that is Israel. That is why option #3 is incorrect. It is wrong for those of us who are Gentile converts to Christ to include ourselves in saved Israel. We're grafted into the exact same tree as those of Israel and the tree into which both groups belong as branches is Jesus. Jesus is the three, not Israel.

I did not misrepresent anything.

Be very careful interchanging the words "Israel" and "Jew." They are not soteriologically interchangeable.












We used to have a poster here who placed an inordinate emphasis on being Jewish. He often asserted positions like, "God has not covenant with any Gentiles," and "The New Testament was written to Jews only." He Judaized everything in scripture, both Old and New, and he was very resistant to feedback from anyone who differed with his positions. Over the course of many, many posts some inroads were made and some minor changes were made in his posts. For example, he was shown how a son of Israel and a Jew are two completely different thing in scripture. He was shown how the Hebrews came from Babylon, and the sons of Israel were, therefore, Babylonian. He was shown how the covenants with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were made with Hebrews, not Jews. He was shown the history of God's terminology, and how the Hebrews existed long before the sons of Israel existed and how the sons of Israel existed long before any Jews existed and how scripture does not call anyone a "Jew" until long after the Hebrew sons of Israel settled the promised land. One example of that information can be read HERE and the posts that followed, and HERE. I'll see if I can track down those posts covering the history of the Hebrews, sons of Israel, Jews, and nation-state Israel but I encourage you to study the matter for yourself because many preachers chronically interchange these terms, but they are not identical. Once you have studied the matter for yourself you will learn to discern which preachers teach it correctly and which do not.
.

 

[Carbon]

That's either non-committal, or you didn't get what I said, (or I don't get what you said). Is Calvin not claiming that the remaining living Jews, will be saved in the end (added back in, grafted back in) ? I'm not talking about the inclusion of Jews with Gentiles. I'm asking if Calvin thought that at some point, those Jews remaining alive would be all grafted back in. That's what it sounds like he's saying.

And I don't see that in scripture, though I have been told that is what it is talking about in the passage.

I think I know what you are refering to?

Here is what Hendriksen has to say.
Insofar as Calvin interprets the term Israel spiritually - "Israel" refers to the elect - his theory must be considered correct. Cf. Rom 9:6. Also his claim that the section, verses 25-32 (considered as a unit), describes the one people of God cannot be successfully refuted. On the other hand, Calvin's application of the term "Israel," in verse 26, to all the people of God, both Jews and Gentiles, is wrong.

 

[makesends]

I think I know what you are refering to?

Here is what Hendriksen has to say.
Insofar as Calvin interprets the term Israel spiritually - "Israel" refers to the elect - his theory must be considered correct. Cf. Rom 9:6. Also his claim that the section, verses 25-32 (considered as a unit), describes the one people of God cannot be successfully refuted. On the other hand, Calvin's application of the term "Israel," in verse 26, to all the people of God, both Jews and Gentiles, is wrong.

I'm lost. I'm just trying to figure out if Calvin thinks, like my Dispensationalist friends I grew up with, that in the end, it is not just "Jews and Gentiles" that are saved, but that all physical progeny of Jacob (regardless of whether that means currently living, or including the dead) will be grafted back in.

"And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." Romans 11:23

We've had several threads here and on CF on the question of to what that verse is referring. Some are saying that logically it is implied that they will be grafted back in. I disagree.

 

[brightfame52]

@Lees

What I said is this, post #(13), "The true Israel of God is born of Abraham, born of the tribes of Israel, and a child of promise."

Thats false, the True Israel of God is Abrahams supernatural Spiritual Seed as typed by Isaac, and is also Christs Spiritual Seed Isa 53:10

10 ;Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

 

[Carbon]

I'm lost. I'm just trying to figure out if Calvin thinks, like my Dispensationalist friends I grew up with, that in the end, it is not just "Jews and Gentiles" that are saved, but that all physical progeny of Jacob (regardless of whether that means currently living, or including the dead) will be grafted back in.

"And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." Romans 11:23

We've had several threads here and on CF on the question of to what that verse is referring. Some are saying that logically it is implied that they will be grafted back in. I disagree.

He believes in the end, all the elect of God will be saved, from all tribes tongues, and nations.

 

[makesends]

He believes in the end, all the elect of God will be saved, from all tribes tongues, and nations.

Yes, obviously, but is that all, or does he think that 'all of Jacob's progeny' is elect?

 

[Lees]

Prove that statement with scripture.

Strange request. I just 'proved' your error in trying to peddle Paul's statement of 'present time' to indicate that it only pertains to 'present time'.
See again, (Rom. 11:4) and compare to (1 Kings 19:18). The Scripture proves you wrong. And what do you do? Do you say, ok I was mistaken there? No, You highlight a single phrase I made and say, "Prove it". Ignoring your error.

It is strange to me, that in my encounter on forums, those who are quick to cry 'prove it' are atheists. I'm not saying you're an atheist, I am saying that is a common demand of them. Why? Because nothing you can ever say 'proves it' to them.

I have given enough to prove your error. What you did with that proves a lot to me.

Lees

 

[Lees]

Argumentum ad nauseam.

Repeating the claim again and again does not make it correct. When Paul states "All Israel will be saved," he does so within the context of his prior statement: not all Israel is Israel. Only the Israel that is Israel will be saved. The Israel that is not Israel will not be saved. Why not? Because they are not the children of promise.

Re-read Post #33. I stated, "Which means not all Israel will be saved if Israel is defined as Jews."

and your response to that statement is, "No. All Israel will be saved. All Israel will be Jews born of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They will be Jews of the children of promise. Still Jews. They are the true Israel."


Conflating "Israel" with Jews is wrong. Paul also stated not all the descendants of Abraham are Abraham's descendants. All Israel will not be Jews born of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They will not all be children born of promise. That is the point Paul is making. Neither bloodline nor adherence to the Law is what makes a person a descendant of Abrahams. And neither does salvation come by bloodline or the works of the Law. The word "Jews" is found only once in the entirety of chapter 9.


Romans 9:33-34
And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

There's only one occasion when Paul uses the word "Jew in chapter 10, too.

Romans 10:12
For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him.

There are no Jews in Jesus. Neither are there any Gentiles. And there's not a single mention of the word "Jew" in chapter 11. Nowhere in the entire 3-chapter commentary does Paul ever say, "All Israel will be Jews born of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." That statement is a completely self-fabricated addition to God's word. Nowhere do those three chapters state All Israel will be Jews of the children of promise. That too is a complete fabrication. Nowhere does the text stat Jews are the true Israel. What the text does explicitly state is that those in whom God makes the riches of His glory known are not from among the Jews only.

And there are many places in the New Testament where bloodline Jews are excluded from being children of God and receiving salvation from sin. In John chapter 8, for example, Jesus is preaching to a huge crowd, most of whom are Jews and some, but not all, have come to believe his words....

John 8:31-47 (excerpted for the sake of space)
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed him, "If you continue in my word, then you are truly disciples of mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?" Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. I know that you are Abraham's descendants; yet you seek to kill me, because my word has no place in you. I speak the things which I have seen with my Father; therefore, you also do the things which you heard from your father." They answered and said to him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God." Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on my own initiative, but He sent me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I speak the truth, you do not believe me."

And what was the response of those about whom he was speaking?

John 8:48-52
The Jews answered and said to him, "Do we not say rightly that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?" Jesus answered, "I do not have a demon; but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. But I do not seek my glory; there is One who seeks and judges. Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word he will never see death." The Jews said to Him, "Now we know that you have a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets also; and you say, 'If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste of death.'"

They said Jesus demon possessed.

1 John 2:22-23
Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

1 John 4:2-3
By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

Those people in John 8 who denied Jesus was from God and claimed he was demon possessed were antichrists. Antichrists do not get saved. Every Jew is not an Israelite of promise and salvation has nothing to do with bloodline or adherence to the Law of Moses. Not all the descendants of Abraham are Abraham's descendants. Paul had concerns for his kinsmen according to the flesh, but the simple fact is not all Israel is Israel. Bloodline, adherence to the Law, AND geo-political national status do not save.

Repeating the claim again and again doesn't make it wrong either.

True, the Israel that is not Israel will not be saved. But the Israel that is Israel that will be saved, are Jews, or Israelilte, born of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and are the children of promise. Something you seem to have a hard time with. They are not Gentiles born of promise, They are Jews born of promise.

No, conflating Jews with Israel is not wrong. After the Babyonian captivity it became common.

I acknowledge that many who are Jews and of Abraham, are not counted as Israel by God. No problem. Your problem is you refuse to acknowledge that the true Israel is still a physical descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and a child of promise. The true Israel does not involve Gentiles who are children of promise.

Lees

 

[Lees]

That statement is correct.

The problem occurs when "Jews" are brought into the mix. Being Jewish has absolutely nothing to do with what Paul was saying in Romans 9-11. Being Jewish is simply, as Paul put it, being a kinsman according to the flesh. The problem is not all those kinsmen of the flesh are Israel.

I am not Jewish. I believe in Jesus and Jesus alone for my salvation from sin and wrath. I am a child of promise and in that regard a descendant of Abraham's. I am not a Jew. Neither am I an Israelite. Most here fit that exact same bill. Paul included Gentiles in Abraham's descendants of promise, but he did not actually include Gentiles among the Israel that is Israel. That is why option #3 is incorrect. It is wrong for those of us who are Gentile converts to Christ to include ourselves in saved Israel. We're grafted into the exact same tree as those of Israel and the tree into which both groups belong as branches is Jesus. Jesus is the three, not Israel.

I did not misrepresent anything.

Be very careful interchanging the words "Israel" and "Jew." They are not soteriologically interchangeable.

That's strange, since Paul called those kinsman according to the flesh, Israelites. (Rom. 9:3-4) "...my brethren, my kinsemn according to the flesh: Who are Israelites...."

Jews being brought into the mix is no problem. (Rom. 3:1-2) "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much in every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God." Compare that with (Rom. 9:3-5) "...for my brethren, my kinsman according to the flesh: Who are Israelites to whom pertainieth the adooption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises. Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came..."

Also, compare (Rom. 10:1) "Brethren my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel, is that they might be saved." to (Rom. 10:12) "For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek:"

Lees

 

[Lees]

@Lees



Thats false, the True Israel of God is Abrahams supernatural Spiritual Seed as typed by Isaac, and is also Christs Spiritual Seed Isa 53:10

10 ;Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Yes, the true Israel of God is Abraham's, Isaac's, and Jacob's supernatural seed. Children of promise. It doesn't mean Gentile children of promise are counted as Israel.

Lees

 

[brightfame52]

Yes, the true Israel of God is Abraham's, Isaac's, and Jacob's supernatural seed. Children of promise. It doesn't mean Gentile children of promise are counted as Israel.

Lees

Yes it does mean some Gentiles, thats like saying no gentiles are born again, thats a foolish thought. The criteria is a new creation, thats the rule, not ethnicity Gal 6

14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

You walking according to the standards of the world, and circumcision, being a ethnic jew, that avails nothing

Its confidence in the flesh as Paul once did when unconverted and in darkness Phil 3:4-5

4 ;Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

May God be pleased to deliver you from this strong delusion of confidence in the flesh my friend

 

[brightfame52]

@Lees

True, the Israel that is not Israel will not be saved. But the Israel that is Israel that will be saved, are Jews, or Israelilte, born of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and are the children of promise. Something you seem to have a hard time with. They are not Gentiles born of promise, They are Jews born of promise.

Some Gentiles are children of promise, just as Isaac was, Paul writing to the predominately Gentile church in Galatia, his brothers and sisters in Christ, writes Gal 4:28

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

 

[Lees]

@brightfame52 : concerning your posts #(55) and #(56)

You're not paying attention to what I said. Go back and reread.

Lees

 

[brightfame52]

@brightfame52 : concerning your posts #(55) and #(56)

You're not paying attention to what I said. Go back and reread.

Lees

I understood you quite well, and you are trusting in the flesh. Hey but you have been hood winked

 

[EarlyActs]

There has always been a 'remnant' concerning the true Israel. Just because Paul speaks ot 'his time' doens't negate the fact of a past remnant, nor of a future remnant. Note (Rom. 11:4) "But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal." The Remnant. Which paves the way for what Paul says in (Rom. 11:5). So, no. What you say of the Remnant, changes nothing.

No. All Israel will be saved. All Israel will be Jews born of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They will be Jews of the children of promise. Still Jews. They are the true Israel.

(Rom. 11:26) does speak to a future time. "...There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:" That hasn't occurred yet. It's called the 2nd Coming.

No, you misrepresent what I have said. You said, post #(27), "what you did get correct is that the Israel that is Israel is made up of those of promise, not ethnicity." Which is a lie. I never said that. What I said is this, post #(13), "The true Israel of God is born of Abraham, born of the tribes of Israel, and a child of promise."

Again, as already stated, the Remnant doesn't just pertain to the present time. Paul is addressing his present time. Doesn't mean there wasn't a Remnant in the past or will be in the future. God has His Remnant of Israel in past, present, and future.

It would be good for you to pay attention to what is said. Specifically (Rom. 11:4) What time period is Paul addressing here? Answer: (1 Kings 19:18)

Lees

Rom 11:26 quoted Isiah bc it had happened. The true Israel believes that; the others do not.