All ISRAEL will be saved

[EarlyActs]

(Rom. 9:6-7) "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, in Isaac shall thy seed be called."

(Rom. 9:8-9) "That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son."

Paul established at the beginning of (Rom. 9) that he is talking about Israelites. His brethren and kinsmen according to the flesh. (Rom. 9:3) Thus within Israel, you have those who are 'children of the flesh'. They are born of Abraham and of the tribes of Israel, but they are not true Israel. Why? Because 'in Isaac' is the true seed called. The true Israel of God is born of Abraham, born of the tribes of Israel, and a child of promise.

And one day, all of Israel will be the true Israel of God. All will be children of promise. Which will occur when the blindness of Israel is lifted. (Rom. 11:25-26) "...that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved...."

Lees

The grammar of these lines is that there is partial blindness to the end of time. Just like there is with Gentiles. 9:6 tells us that there’s another Israel, and all of that Israel is justified from its sins.

Due to the fact of so many Jews already not saved, the line is technically not about all the race-nation anyway.

In 9:24 he referred to “us” as the real Israel of v9, and used 4 OT quotes to show this included gentile believers. Someone has been teaching you very selectively, and you can’t see it.

 

[EarlyActs]

The Elect Gentiles were added to the Saints Israel of the Old Covenant, not national israel but the Saints Israel, Paul writes of that here Eph 2:11-19

Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 ;And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

It was unto Israel the Saints the Gospel Promises were made Eph 3:6

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Heb 11:40

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Heb 11:40 is the repeat that the blessing of justification, not a nation in its land, is what the OT believers were seeking—and came. Compare the climax of Acts 13s teaching at a synagogue.

 

[Mr GLee]

The olive tree of ch 11 is faith-based ‘stands by faith’, not by race. ( considering all the Jews who have died through the centuries, this should be clear anyway).

But this means the Israel of all Israel is those Jews who believe.

Saved in Romans is never about creatures land anyway; Paul was quoting Isaiah in a fulfilled sense in his time; the Redeemer came to Zion and took away sins.

The ‘Kai houtos’ (in this manner) refers to the faith-based manner, not the race, which of course is only some of the Jews, The remnant illustrated in the first 3 verses of 11.

This is why the crescendo is not ‘all Israel will be saved’ but v30 that God has bound all in sin, so that he might mercy on them all—who believe of course. Some Jews will be saved bc of the patriarchs but it’s few, v14. So this Israel is new and is both peoples as the NT letters say repeatedly.

In light of that mercy, 12:1, the Christian community is the temple and its lives are living sacrifices in that new temple.

So, then the remnant follows after Jacob the deceiver before conversion?


Why did the Father in Isaiah 62 rename Isreal (wife) Christian?

 

[brightfame52]

I did. Which is why I presented post #(13). Again, refute the Scripture I gave in post #(13). Then ask yourself, who is deceived?

Lees

So then why did you say I didnt have scripture ?

 

[Josheb]

I gave plenty of Scripture supporting my view.

No, you did not.

What you did "give" is an eisegetic interpretation of a few verses in Romans 9 that 1) fit your already-existing point of view and 2) does not reconcile with the entire passage. Note the Romans 9 text is just part of a three-chapter exposition and it is "bookended by two very important qualifiers: 1) not all Israel is Israel, and 2) the remnant existed "at the present time," meaning Paul was writing about a salvation that was going to happen to a remnant that had been preserved by God in the first century. Not all Israel is going to be saved if not all of Israel is Israel. It is only the Israel that is Israel that will be saved. If it is a remnant that God has preserved, then it is not literally all Israel. Furthermore, the term "Israel" was used by God long before a single Jew ever existed . Yep. Look it up. Do a word search for when the first use of "Israel" occurs and compare it to the first mention of "Jew."

What you did get correct is that the Israel that is Israel is made up of those of promise, not ethnicity. Not only is salvation a function of God's covenant promises, it is by grace, not bloodline.

Romans 11:1-6
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 9-11 has absolutely nothing specifically to do with the 21st century. Has God preserved a bunch of Jews in the 21st century for salvation? Probably, but Romans 9-11 is not the text to use to prove that position. Has God preserved a remnant of modern-day Israel for salvation? Perhaps, but Romans 9-11 says nothing specific or explicit about that premise.


A read through this thread HERE will cover more scriptural ground to illuminate the matter.

 

[Lees]

So then why did you say I didnt have scripture ?

That was in response to your response of post #(14). I gave Scripture, and you simply come back and say 'you are deceived'.

 

[Lees]

No, you did not.

What you did "give" is an eisegetic interpretation of a few verses in Romans 9 that 1) fit your already-existing point of view and 2) does not reconcile with the entire passage. Note the Romans 9 text is just part of a three-chapter exposition and it is "bookended by two very important qualifiers: 1) not all Israel is Israel, and 2) the remnant existed "at the present time," meaning Paul was writing about a salvation that was going to happen to a remnant that had been preserved by God in the first century. Not all Israel is going to be saved if not all of Israel is Israel. It is only the Israel that is Israel that will be saved. If it is a remnant that God has preserved, then it is not literally all Israel. Furthermore, the term "Israel" was used by God long before a single Jew ever existed . Yep. Look it up. Do a word search for when the first use of "Israel" occurs and compare it to the first mention of "Jew."

What you did get correct is that the Israel that is Israel is made up of those of promise, not ethnicity. Not only is salvation a function of God's covenant promises, it is by grace, not bloodline.

Romans 11:1-6
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.

Romans 9-11 has absolutely nothing specifically to do with the 21st century. Has God preserved a bunch of Jews in the 21st century for salvation? Probably, but Romans 9-11 is not the text to use to prove that position. Has God preserved a remnant of modern-day Israel for salvation? Perhaps, but Romans 9-11 says nothing specific or explicit about that premise.


A read through this thread HERE will cover more scriptural ground to illuminate the matter.

Yes, I did.

No, my presentation fits what Scripture is saying.

Yes, the salvation of the Remnant is involved. That changes nothing to what I said.

Yes, only the Israel that is Israel will be saved. And at a future date, that will be all Israel. (Rom. 11:26)

No, You misrepresent me. I never discounted the ethnicity as important to the true Israel being Israel. See again. post #(13)

(Rom. 11:1-6) is a good passage.

Lees

 

[Carbon]

There are at least three interpretations.

1. The word "all" could be a hyperbole.
2. The phrase "all Israel" means all Jews who are alive at some point in the future will be saved.
3. The word "Israel" means Jewish and Gentile believers.

Number 3.

 

[Carbon]

I lean towards: 3 - The word "Israel" means Jewish and Gentile believers.
We see so many "types" that those of Israel represented, so why not consider that "Israel" is a "type" also (being the "type" of God's people).
Israel was just a mini-type of how God would save the world.

Yes, I believe Paul is teaching on "spiritual Israel."

 

[Carbon]

I lean towards: 3 - The word "Israel" means Jewish and Gentile believers.
We see so many "types" that those of Israel represented, so why not consider that "Israel" is a "type" also (being the "type" of God's people).
Israel was just a mini-type of how God would save the world.

Good stuff.

 

[Carbon]

I'm going with this one.

Of course, being a Dispsy you're obligated to, if you want to stay consistent.

 

[Carbon]

Agreed, All Israel is simply the Church, the Body of Christ, the Israel of God, Abrahams Spiritual seed through Christ Gal 3:29

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Gal 6:

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Indeed

 

[Josheb]

Yes, I did.

No, my presentation fits what Scripture is saying.

Yes, the salvation of the Remnant is involved. That changes nothing to what I said.

It does change what you said because the remnant of which Paul spoke was a first century remnant, not a 21st century remnant.

Yes, only the Israel that is Israel will be saved.

Which means not all Israel will be saved if Israel is defined as Jews.

And at a future date, that will be all Israel. (Rom. 11:26)

Romans 11:5 qualifies verse 26. Verse 5 explicitly states it is "at the present time" (which would be the first century) a remnant has been preserved. Verse 26 states absolutely nothing about any future century.

No, You misrepresent me.

No, you misrepresent scripture.

I never discounted the ethnicity as important to the true Israel being Israel. See again. post #(13)

Acknowledged. I never said you did. What you did post was "all of Israel will be the true Israel of God," and "All will be children of promise." That is incorrect. There's not a single word in Romans 9-11 about this century. The correct viewpoint is that the "true" Israel will be saved, not all of Israel. Post #13 has it backwards. It is the children of promise who are the true Israel, not all of Israel will one day be children of promise. Post #13 has it backwards.

(Rom. 11:1-6) is a good passage.

Lees

It is a good passage and it would be good for you to heed exactly what it states and not buy the teachings of those who ignore verse 5's explicit clause, "at the present time."


Paul's present time, not ours.



This is an easily resolved matter: Does Paul explicitly state, "...at the present time..." or not? If so, then he is not writing about anything in the far, far, far, far distant future. Any mention of what will happen is predicated on the remnant existing at the present time.

 

[Carbon]

There are at least three interpretations.

1. The word "all" could be a hyperbole.
2. The phrase "all Israel" means all Jews who are alive at some point in the future will be saved.
3. The word "Israel" means Jewish and Gentile believers.

Romans 11:


God had not rejected all the Israelites. The Israelites were the original olive tree that God had planted and cultivated. Some branches were broken off due to their rejecting God.


There was a remnant of Israelites remaining in the olive tree. They had not been broken off.


Gentiles were branches cut from a wild olive tree.


God grafted the wild olive tree branches into his cultivated original olive tree.


In the future, the broken Jewish branches will be grafted back in.


All Israel includes

1. the remnant branch that was never broken off,
2. the Gentile branches that were grafted in, and
3. the broken-off Jewish branches that will be grafted back in.

"All Israel" means all the believers of the LORD who are living branches of God's cultivated olive tree. The root nourishes and supports them (v. 17).

After studying this in scripture I believe "all Israel" (Romans 11:26) refers to the total number of the elect throghout history. Consisting of both Jew and Gentile. "Spiritual Israel."

I agree with Calvin, he writes:
I extend the word Israel to all the people of God, according to this meaning: when the Gentiles shall come in, the Jews also will return from their defection to the obedience of faith and thus will be completed the salvation of the whole Israel of God, which must be gathered from both . . .

I know there are a couple of other understandings which are very much worth considering. From Bavinck and Berkhof in particulr.

 

[brightfame52]

That was in response to your response of post #(14). I gave Scripture, and you simply come back and say 'you are deceived'.

Because you are mislead, and I had already given scripture prior to saying that

 

[brightfame52]

Being grafted back in if they continue not in unbelief just means, if an individual jew belongs to the remnant according to the election grace, are converted from unbelief, they're grafted back in just as the elect gentiles are being grafted in from unbelief. Its not talking about any national conversion. Like Paul, he was a blind jew, but because he was elect, he was grafted in Rom 11:1-2

I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

The election of grace is comprised of both jews and gentiles, God isnt going to stop saving ethnic jews as indiviuals just because He has ended for good His Covenant relationship the nation in general.

 

[Josheb]

After studying this in scripture I believe "all Israel" (Romans 11:26) refers to the total number of the elect throghout history. Consisting of both Jew and Gentile.

 

[Lees]

It does change what you said because the remnant of which Paul spoke was a first century remnant, not a 21st century remnant.

Which means not all Israel will be saved if Israel is defined as Jews.

Romans 11:5 qualifies verse 26. Verse 5 explicitly states it is "at the present time" (which would be the first century) a remnant has been preserved. Verse 26 states absolutely nothing about any future century.

No, you misrepresent scripture.

Acknowledged. I never said you did. What you did post was "all of Israel will be the true Israel of God," and "All will be children of promise." That is incorrect. There's not a single word in Romans 9-11 about this century. The correct viewpoint is that the "true" Israel will be saved, not all of Israel. Post #13 has it backwards. It is the children of promise who are the true Israel, not all of Israel will one day be children of promise. Post #13 has it backwards.

It is a good passage and it would be good for you to heed exactly what it states and not buy the teachings of those who ignore verse 5's explicit clause, "at the present time."


Paul's present time, not ours.



This is an easily resolved matter: Does Paul explicitly state, "...at the present time..." or not? If so, then he is not writing about anything in the far, far, far, far distant future. Any mention of what will happen is predicated on the remnant existing at the present time.

There has always been a 'remnant' concerning the true Israel. Just because Paul speaks ot 'his time' doens't negate the fact of a past remnant, nor of a future remnant. Note (Rom. 11:4) "But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal." The Remnant. Which paves the way for what Paul says in (Rom. 11:5). So, no. What you say of the Remnant, changes nothing.

No. All Israel will be saved. All Israel will be Jews born of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They will be Jews of the children of promise. Still Jews. They are the true Israel.

(Rom. 11:26) does speak to a future time. "...There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:" That hasn't occurred yet. It's called the 2nd Coming.

No, you misrepresent what I have said. You said, post #(27), "what you did get correct is that the Israel that is Israel is made up of those of promise, not ethnicity." Which is a lie. I never said that. What I said is this, post #(13), "The true Israel of God is born of Abraham, born of the tribes of Israel, and a child of promise."

Again, as already stated, the Remnant doesn't just pertain to the present time. Paul is addressing his present time. Doesn't mean there wasn't a Remnant in the past or will be in the future. God has His Remnant of Israel in past, present, and future.

It would be good for you to pay attention to what is said. Specifically (Rom. 11:4) What time period is Paul addressing here? Answer: (1 Kings 19:18)

Lees

 

[makesends]

After studying this in scripture I believe "all Israel" (Romans 11:26) refers to the total number of the elect throghout history. Consisting of both Jew and Gentile. "Spiritual Israel."

I agree with Calvin, he writes:
I extend the word Israel to all the people of God, according to this meaning: when the Gentiles shall come in, the Jews also will return from their defection to the obedience of faith and thus will be completed the salvation of the whole Israel of God, which must be gathered from both . . .

I know there are a couple of other understandings which are very much worth considering. From Bavinck and Berkhof in particulr.

But Calvin sounds like he includes the physical remnant of Jews into that Israel, as though it is not complete until all Jews are included.

 

[Carbon]

But Calvin sounds like he includes the physical remnant of Jews into that Israel, as though it is not complete until all Jews are included.

Well yes, both Jews and Gentiles.