GOD MADE NO COVENANT WITH GENTILES

[prism]

They have learned to be resilient, yes, but even their own interest in returning to their land in the late 1800s, is not a Christian-driven thing. There's no interest in their land as such in the NT that I know of; there is concern that it not be lost in the revolt, but that was hope-less.

We should be asking 'ever wonder why' about a number of other things, like the new temple in Jn 1 or the actual meaning of all those technical terms about Israel's promises, inheritance, commonwealth in Eph 2B-3A.

Their 'own resilience' or God's Providence?

Romans 11:28-29 ASV
As touching the gospel, they are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sake. [29] For the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of.
I ask 'how and why' about a lot of things.

 

[EarlyActs]

I use "Jew" and "Hebrew" interchangeably. I'll be more precise.

Because God is precise to have Covenant with a certain line of people from Adam to Moses and David and others.

God made no covenant with Gentiles.
The covenant God made with Abraham was to him and his seed. Gentiles are not his seed.
Gentiles receive the blessings God covenanted with Abraham but do not have a covenant of their own they can speak of.

I agree God is a God of covenant. Throughout the Scripture God has made His covenants with various individuals.
There is a natural Israel/Jacob and a spiritual Israel/Jacob to whom God's covenant passed to just as there is a natural twelve tribes and a spiritual twelve tribes. The natural twelve tribes are the sons of Jacob, and the spiritual twelve tribes are believers who being baptized into the body of Christ are also a member of the natural twelve tribes/sons. The twelve apostles represent the spiritual aspect of the twelve natural tribes.

Messiah and Redeemer was promised to and for Israel. Messiah and Redeemer came to and for Israel. Messiah and Redeemer died to and for Israel as per covenant and prophecy. God made no covenant with Gentiles. Gentiles receive the blessings God gave to Abraham as per His covenant with Abraham. But there is no covenant God made with Gentiles they can speak of. They can only speak truthfully that they receive blessings from the Abrahamic Covenant but God made no covenant with Gentiles.
God is the potter. Abraham is the cup. What was poured into the cup is the blessings God poured into Abraham the cup.
But Abraham's cup runneth over and this is what Gentiles can only speak of. The blessings. Not the covenant.

jeremiah1five said:
What I do mean is that after 2000 years of Gentiles being grafted into the natural branches (Israel) that they have become accustomed and indoctrinated that because of Israel calling for the crucifixion of their Messiah that they hold this as God rejecting them

I can see the holier-than-thou attitude of a great majority of Gentile Christians towards Jews in nearly 20 years of posting at discussion boards and forums.

I see other reasons for the destruction of the Temple. One is also to begin to fulfill prophecies of Gentiles receiving the blessings of Abraham and becoming saved to worship God.
Another is a more personal reason of God. To make His Bride Israel jealous before He ends the Gentile era of His Plan of Man timeclock and return His full attention to His covenant with Israel to restore that relationship. To the Hebrew it is the Time of Jacob's/Israel's Trouble. Gentile Christians call it the Great Tribulation. Then Israel will take center-stage. Gentile Christians will go through the Time of Jacob's Trouble right alongside Israel.

The only way for anyone to approach God is if He wills it and not without the anointing of His Spirit (meaning the person is saved, born-again, Spirit-baptized into the body of Christ.)
When Christ ascends to the throne of David animal sacrifices will be reinstituted.

The seed of Abraham are those who had faith, just like he did, the moment he believed on justification. What race was he before that? It doesn't matter, because it is by faith.

 

[EarlyActs]

Their 'own resilience' or God's Providence?

Romans 11:28-29 ASV
As touching the gospel, they are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sake. [29] For the gifts and the calling of God are not repented of.
I ask 'how and why' about a lot of things.

Read their own account. It actually began with a degenerate renegade from evangelical faith, Jane Evans (G. Elliot) the novelist. See the major study by Himmelfarb THE JEWISH ODDYSSEY OF GEORGE ELLIOT.

When Paul says "they" are beloved, the momentum and proof in the whole chapter has been the remnant only. He always said some Jews were believers (like him). In v14 he has very low expectations.

 

[jeremiah1five]

But Eph 2-3 is clear that they gain it through Christ, so there is no point to what you are saying. Abraham's children always were going to be those who have faith, Rom 4 and Gal 3.

Please read Gal 3 10x before we speak again.

I never said only Abraham's children will be the only ones having faith.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. Gal. 3:10.

 

[jeremiah1five]

He made Messiah a covenant to benefit them; so yes He did. It is the eternal covenant for all those encased by the spectre of death, Is 24.

Abraham's Covenant was a 'benefit' to Gentiles.
But God made no covenant with Gentiles.

 

[donadams]

God made no covenant with Gentiles.

Please explain where the scripture contradicts you


Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to theJew first, and also to theGreek.

Romans 2:10
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jewfirst, and also to the Gentile:

Lk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

The whole world

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

 

[prism]

Read their own account. It actually began with a degenerate renegade from evangelical faith, Jane Evans (G. Elliot) the novelist. See the major study by Himmelfarb THE JEWISH ODDYSSEY OF GEORGE ELLIOT.

When Paul says "they" are beloved, the momentum and proof in the whole chapter has been the remnant only. He always said some Jews were believers (like him). In v14 he has very low expectations.

The first is a straw man, I could easily put forth the Apostles and Prophets...all Jewish.

Paul makes a distinction in Rom 11 between Jews and Gentiles. Just by the use of the word 'they' in comparison to the Gentiles shows a distinction.

Romans 11:20-21 ASV
Well; by their unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear: [21] for if God spared not the natural branches, neither will he spare thee.

Don't get me wrong, there is a remnant of true believers taken from Jews and Gentiles, it's just that God isn't finished with His dealings with them yet.

 

[EarlyActs]

I never said only Abraham's children will be the only ones having faith.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. Gal. 3:10.

You do not follow what is being said. It wasn't about whether they had faith. It was that having faith meant that they were the seed of Abraham.

Please do not post a response to me until you've read Gal 3 10x, maybe in a couple days we can revisit.

 

[EarlyActs]

The first is a straw man, I could easily put forth the Apostles and Prophets...all Jewish.

Paul makes a distinction in Rom 11 between Jews and Gentiles. Just by the use of the word 'they' in comparison to the Gentiles shows a distinction.

Romans 11:20-21 ASV
Well; by their unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by thy faith. Be not highminded, but fear: [21] for if God spared not the natural branches, neither will he spare thee.

Don't get me wrong, there is a remnant of true believers taken from Jews and Gentiles, it's just that God isn't finished with His dealings with them yet.

11:30 sounds done to me: God has bound all men over to sin so that he may have mercy on all.

 

[Arial]

I use "Jew" and "Hebrew" interchangeably. I'll be more precise.

What? Is that your way of not addressing the post it responds to?

Because God is precise to have Covenant with a certain line of people from Adam to Moses and David and others.

Address the post.
The nation of Israel is not the big picture and is not the Seed. Jesus is the big picture and He is the Seed that was being preserved. The nation Israel and the Jews are a chapter in an unfolding redemption.

God made no covenant with Gentiles.
The covenant God made with Abraham was to him and his seed. Gentiles are not his seed.
Gentiles receive the blessings God covenanted with Abraham but do not have a covenant of their own they can speak of.

Maybe you do not understand what a covenant is. You certainly do not see the linear unbroken covenant of redemption. You have chopped it into pieces and thrown some of them away. The covenant God made with Abraham and two parts. His seed and His Seed. That is why it is said not all who are descendants of Abraham are of Abraham.

I agree God is a God of covenant. Throughout the Scripture God has made His covenants with various individuals.
There is a natural Israel/Jacob and a spiritual Israel/Jacob to whom God's covenant passed to just as there is a natural twelve tribes and a spiritual twelve tribes. The natural twelve tribes are the sons of Jacob, and the spiritual twelve tribes are believers who being baptized into the body of Christ are also a member of the natural twelve tribes/sons. The twelve apostles represent the spiritual aspect of the twelve natural tribes.

You give no support for that, but lets say for the sake of argument that it is true. Then why are you dividing the two and saying only Israel has a covenant with God.

Messiah and Redeemer was promised to and for Israel.

And also to the Gentiles.

Messiah and Redeemer died to and for Israel as per covenant and prophecy. God made no covenant with Gentiles

He died for the whole world. Not just Israel. As the prophecies proclaim "A people not my people will be my people." That is a covenant relationship.

Abraham is the cup. What was poured into the cup is the blessings God poured into Abraham the cup.
But Abraham's cup runneth over and this is what Gentiles can only speak of. The blessings. Not the covenant.

That is just made up fanciful jargon without an ounce of support.

I can see the holier-than-thou attitude of a great majority of Gentile Christians towards Jews in nearly 20 years of posting at discussion boards and forums.

And I have seen you consider disagreement as being a holier-than-thou attitude towards Jews, so who knows but what that is all it ever is?

I see other reasons for the destruction of the Temple. One is also to begin to fulfill prophecies of Gentiles receiving the blessings of Abraham and becoming saved to worship God.
Another is a more personal reason of God.

I am really not interested in the other reasons you might have because you have no substantiation of them.

The only way for anyone to approach God is if He wills it and not without the anointing of His Spirit (meaning the person is saved, born-again, Spirit-baptized into the body of Christ.)

That has nothing to do with what I posted.

When Christ ascends to the throne of David animal sacrifices will be reinstituted.

Christ is already sitting on the throne as King. And to restore the animal sacrifices is nothing less than trampling on the blood of Jesus. And you also have Christ Himself presiding over this. The covenant of redemption in all its glory is always seen in scripture as moving forward to its consummation of a restored creation. It never moves backwards.

 

[Arial]

It looks like the passage mentions ,sun, moon, seas etc., things temporal, not found in heaven.
Do you ever wonder why the Jewish people have endured over the ages, amidst persecutions even from the 'Church'?

God is making a point in those passages and actually it is referring first to the return of some of the Jews to Jerusalem after the 70 years in exile in Babylon, and then to the future new covenant with all nations. The point is His faithfulness in holding all of creation in place.

I know why they have. Because God wants them to. But I do not agree with Jeremiah1's assessment of it nor do I agree with the dispensationalists view.

 

[prism]

11:30 sounds done to me: God has bound all men over to sin so that he may have mercy on all.

They have not yet seen Jacob's Trouble to bring many back to Himself.

Romans 11:12 ESV
Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

 

[prism]

God is making a point in those passages and actually it is referring first to the return of some of the Jews to Jerusalem after the 70 years in exile in Babylon, and then to the future new covenant with all nations. The point is His faithfulness in holding all of creation in place.

I know why they have. Because God wants them to. But I do not agree with Jeremiah1's assessment of it nor do I agree with the dispensationalists view.

It's fine. I happen to be a rare breed...a Reformed Dispensationalist. (so long as we aren't identified by our eschatology). lol

 

[EarlyActs]

They have not yet seen Jacob's Trouble to bring many back to Himself.

Romans 11:12 ESV
Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!

The intention of the Romans 11 lines are not prediction. They are to 'provoke Israel to jealousy'--about the right thing: the evangelism of the world, Romans 10B. He wanted them to beceom Christians and evangelists--like him!

They went through "Jacob's Trouble" in the Jewish war and it did made little difference.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Please explain where the scripture contradicts you


Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to theJew first, and also to theGreek.

Romans 2:10
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jewfirst, and also to the Gentile:

Lk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

The whole world

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Those verses do not describe any covenant with Gentiles. This is what a covenant with God looks like:

2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly. Gen. 17:2.

See that. It's expressed as a covenant.

 

[prism]

The intention of the Romans 11 lines are not prediction.

Correct. It is to show that God has not rejected His people.

Romans 11:1 ESV
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.

They went through "Jacob's Trouble" in the Jewish war and it did made little difference.

If it made little difference, then obviously it wasn't Jacob's Trouble...

Jeremiah 30:7 ESV
Alas! That day is so great there is none like it; it is a time of distress for Jacob; yet he shall be saved out of it.

 

[EarlyActs]

Correct. It is to show that God has not rejected His people.

Romans 11:1 ESV
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.

If it made little difference, then obviously it wasn't Jacob's Trouble...

Jeremiah 30:7 ESV
Alas! That day is so great there is none like it; it is a time of distress for Jacob; yet he shall be saved out of it.

the remnant was saved through it; there has to be some point where we distinguish between the whole race-nation and the remnant, just like Romans 9:6.

Due to lines in Matt, Mark and Luke (especially), the believers left Jerusalem and many went to Pella.

 

[EarlyActs]

Correct. It is to show that God has not rejected His people.

Romans 11:1 ESV
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin.

If it made little difference, then obviously it wasn't Jacob's Trouble...

Jeremiah 30:7 ESV
Alas! That day is so great there is none like it; it is a time of distress for Jacob; yet he shall be saved out of it.

We know from the opening lines of ch 11 that 'to not reject his people' only means that the remnant is intact; see the examples. It does not mean the whole race-nation, nor does the olive tree imagery later.

There is not a prediction of the whole race-nation being restored in ch 11. "All Israel" is the ones who believe and "saved" simply means being justified from your sins--as it means all through Romans. There is no reason why it should suddenly mean an Israeli state with a capitol in Jerusalem etc. Which, btw, would not help all the millions of Jews historically--if we are talking about "all."

 

[prism]

Due to lines in Matt, Mark and Luke (especially), the believers left Jerusalem and many went to Pella.

Pella may not be far enough..

Hosea 9:17 ESV
My God will reject them because they have not listened to him; they shall be wanderers among the nations.

 

[prism]

There is not a prediction of the whole race-nation being restored in ch 11. "All Israel" is the ones who believe and "saved" simply means being justified from your sins--as it means all through Romans. There is no reason why it should suddenly mean an Israeli state with a capitol in Jerusalem etc. Which, btw, would not help all the millions of Jews historically--if we are talking about "all."

I'm just wondering why Paul uses terms like 'you Gentiles' and 'the Jews' (distinctions) if 'all Israel' means the ones who are justified. Maybe you can explain?