Right. . .their unregenerate sinful nature (Eph 2:3, 1 Co 2:14) took care of that.
Can the external call of the gospel by itself produce faith in the heart of the natural man?
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ReverendRV
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Yes; in Logical Order...
Christians think Regeneration and Faith are Simultaneous in the Temporal Order. This means Christians are crying over spilled milk (or should I say spilled meat?). The Gospel is Milk; we're not arguing about that. Doctrine is the Meat of the Word; we're crying over spilled Meat...
The Meat is that we're Totally Depraved; and that's easily defended. When we read a Verse which says "We Can"; Theologically speaking, we're to Presume that the Grace of God has already appeared to make a Real difference in our lives before we Believe...
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so one split second I am lost. Unable to understand, and dead in sin.
then miraculously I am saved from my sin (regeneration) and at the very moment also consider the fact. Consider the ramifications of those facts. Repent. Then get on our knees to call out to Jesus..
I just can not see this happening in a split second.. I think there would need to be time from knowledge being revealed and a person making the decision to repent and come to faith
I believe this, I can do no good.
But calling out to Jesus in faith is not a good deed. it is begging for mercy because we have come to the end of ourselves. Its calling out to have someone else do a deed of saving us.. because we are totally unable to save ourselves.
There is no genuine felt need for mercy without the Holy Spirit.
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Jesus is the one who took the penalty of sin away friend Heb 9:12. Unbelievers He died for have no penalty of sin against them.
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"[1] When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him.
[2] And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
[3] And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed."
Bible, King James Version.
Let's talk about this Passage for a moment, and perhaps we'll agree a Temporal Order is true; no matter how difficult it is for Us to comprehend it...
If Jesus touched the Leper before he Healed the Leper; then Jesus would be made Unclean, and eliminated as the Christ. But the Leper was Healed by his Touch, right? So; which came first here in Logical Order, and which came first in the Temporal Order here?
Can we agree the Temporal Order exists in Christianity? You should no longer have reservations about the Temporal Order in Soteriology...
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brightfame52
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Faith/believing accompanies regeneration. So when God regenerates a person it provides them with the Gift of Faith and Repentance. Until that happens in a person, they will remain dead in sin and unbelief to the spiritual things of God.
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Leprosy ~ by ReverendRV * June 24
Mark 1:40-41 NIV; A man with leprosy came to him and begged him on his knees, “If you are willing, you can make me clean.” Jesus was indignant. He reached out his hand and touched the man. “I am Willing,” he said. “Be clean.”
Leprosy is one of the most horrific diseases known to man. It has been feared throughout all of history because there is no cure. In the Old Testament, if a man had a scab on his skin, a Priest would examine it. The person would be put into quarantine and if the scab spread and was accompanied with the other Signs, the Priest will pronounce him Unclean; it was Leprosy. This disease is symbolic of the Spiritual disease called Sin. There is a way to look for those spiritual scabs. You ask, “How can I find a spiritual scab?” Have you ever told a Lie? What do you call a person who tells Lies? When you are honest with yourself, Sin’s scab starts rising to the surface. Now check and see if the scab is spreading; have you ever Stolen anything? What do you call a person who Steals? The truth is that you can see the scab growing instead of getting better. These are just two of Gods Ten Commandments, how far will your spiritual Leprosy spread when you check the other eight? Have you committed Adultery? Have you kept the Sabbath Holy?
Jesus was indignant when the Leper fell to his knees before him. But you ask, “Why would Jesus be indignant?” That’s a good question! Is it because the Leper came to Jesus with a weak Faith, since he used the word ‘if’? This is not the answer, because elsewhere the Bible also tells us that Jesus cast an evil mute spirit from a boy because of his daddy’s request; which was made by ‘little faith’. No; the only thing that could have caused this good man to be indignant is that the leper questioned his Willingness! ~ The King James Version uses the word ‘compassion’ instead of the word ‘indignant’. In his compassion for the man, Jesus was eager to heal the Leper; Christ came into the world to save Sinners and Leprosy is the model for Sin! Only a Miracle could cure the man. ~ Before his Crucifixion Jesus was scourged with whips; by his stripes we are healed; His physical stripes for our spiritual scabs! As the Leper was instantly healed; we are instantly Saved when we go to the risen Jesus Christ as our Lord God and Savior. He is the great physician; place your Faith in him. Only he can pronounce you clean from the spiritual Leprosy of Sin…
Christ is our example of living by Faith. Jesus is God in the flesh, born of a Virgin. He lived a life as a man, and did this by not utilizing his Deity; this way he could live his life on our level. Since Jesus did not use his own power to perform miracles, he walked by Faith in God through the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus never Sinned and was considered by God to be clean. The Bible tells us that if anyone came into contact with anything Unclean, then that person would also be considered Unclean. By Faith, Jesus reached out and touched the leper; or better said, touched the man. The man was made clean before Christ touched him or Jesus could not have been a spotless sacrifice. The Bible says ‘he who promised is Faithful’; Jesus had great Faith, but all we need in order to be Saved is Faith as small as a mustard seed. We’re Saved by the Grace of God through Faith in the Risen Savior Jesus Christ, without Works lest you boast. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as Lord, and read the Bible. ~ Which was he; Indignant or compassionate? As God he abhors the Unclean; but as the perfect Man, he is full of compassion for the Sinner…
Mark 1:41 KJV; And Jesus, moved with compassion, put forth his hand, and touched him, and sayeth unto him, I Will; be thou clean.
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Yes
But he will not force you to take his gift. That’s why he said he did not come to judge but that the world MIGHT be saved
Unbelief is what condemns. The sin issue was taken care of for unbeliever and believer alike
He who believes is not condemned
What keeps a person condemned? Unbelief
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You still don't see it. None of us ever come to the end of ourselves. If God was to show us our stubborn insistence on independence, and the purity of what we are denying, we would probably go into shock if not die. That repentance is an ongoing process. We will not come to the end of ourselves until we SEE what God has been making of us all along, and that won't happen until we see HIM as he is.
The Bible does show us calling out to God. It does not show us calling out in order to invoke a deed on our behalf.
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then explain it. How can it happen in a split second? It took me months as God drew me to himself through my parents, my church (sunday school teachers) seeing his creation, and his own help in helping me to understand
The tax collector did. He was unable to even look up. he was distraught.
or we would fall on our faces or our knees and cry out for his mercy..
I came to the end of myself 40 years ago.. I have been growing since. But I have the assurance and promise of my savior to keep me on the path to sanctification.. Knowing I am saved.. and no matter how bad I think it is. will never be in that state again.
do what?
John 1: 12. But AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED HIM, to THEM he gave the right to become children, even TO THEM WHO BELIEVE
Those who call out and recieve are made children of God
John 3, FOR God so loved the world he gave his only son that WHOEVER BELIEVES (trusts) in him will NEVER PERISH, and LIVE FOREVER (eternal life) for the son was not sent to judge, but that the world might be saved, he who BELIEVES is NOT CONDEMNED, he who does not believe is condemned already
whoever calls out in faith are born again, and they are no longer condemned (God has saved us)
John 4: 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will NEVER THIRST. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into EVERLASTING LIFE”
we must drink, or ask for that drink.. and he responds by giving us eternal life (his work)
John 5: 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he whoever HEARS MY WORD and BELIEVES IN HIM WHO SENT ME who sent Me HAS ETERNAL LIFE and SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT but HAS PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE
1. Hears the word, 2, Believes in him which will cause us to call out. and if we do this, He acts on our behalf and gives me eternal life. and I will not be judged
John 6: 35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. HE WHO COMES TO ME shall NEVER HUNGER and he who BELIEVES IN ME shall NEVER THIRST (NO WORKS)
1. Come to him, believe in him, result. you will never hunger or thirst. because he works on our behalf. his work.
John 6: 37: and THE ONE WHO COMES TO ME I WILL BY NO MEANS CAST OUT 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, thatof all He has given Me I SHAL LOSE NOTHING, but SHOULD RAISE IT UP ON THE LAST DAY. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that EVERYONE WHO SEES AND BELIEVES IN HIM MAY HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE AND I WILL (NOT MIGHT) RAISE HIM ON THE LAST DAY (NO WORKS)
1. come to him and he will do the work of saving us, we will not be cast out, we will nto be lost, we will (not might) be raised on the last day, See and believe and because of this repentance call out and you will live forever. and be raised by him, his act. not mine
John 6: 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, HE WHO BELIEVES IN ME HAS EVERLASTING LIFE. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that THAT ONE MAY EAT OF IT AND NOT DIE 51 am the living bread which came down from heaven. IF ANYONE EATS THIS BREAD HE WILL LIVE FOREVER (NO WORKS)
1. Believe, and you will have eternal life, Eat the bread (the words he gave- ie respond to the gospel and call out) you will live forever
John 6: 63 It is the SPIRIT WHO GIVES LIFE ; the flesh profits nothing. THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK to you ARE SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE (SIGNIFYING THE BREAD FROM HEAVEN, THE FLESH AND BOOD ARE THE WORDS JESUS SPOKE. NOT THE PHYSICAL FOOD OR WORKS,)
putting all the above words of John 6 together
It is the spirit who gives life.. The words he speak are spirit and life. how we respond to these words is what saves us, how do we respond. by receiving them and him in faith, and calling out (he who calls on the name of the lord will be saved)
eph 2: 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses,MADE US ALIVE together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and RAISED US UP TOGETHER , and MADE US SIT TOGETHER IN HEAVENLY PLACES 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED (A COMPLETED ACTION) THROUGH FAITH , (AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED) and that NOT OF YOURSELVES ; it IS THE GIFT OF GOD, 9 NOT OF WORKS LEST ANYONE SHOULD BOAST (NO WORKS)
Faith is the pipeline for which God gives us his grace,
it is by grace we have been saved, But he will not force it on us. we have to receive it in faith. if not. we will remain condemned
rom 4: 16 Therefore IT IF OF FAITH THAT IT MAY BE ACCORDING TO GRACE , so that THE PROMISE MAY BE SURE TO ALL THE SEED not only to those who are of the law, but also TO THOSE WHO ARE OF THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM , who is the father of us all (AGAIN, NO WORKS, IT IS OF GRACE THROUGH FAITH)
there is no salvation with out grace, and there is no grace received without faith
I am at odds I am giving this to someone that does not believe we have to work for salvation..
Rom 4: 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but ALSO FOR US, IT SHALL BE IMPUTED TO US WHO BELIEVE IN HIM WHO RAISED UP JESUS OUR LORD FROM THE DEAD , 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was RAISED BECAUSE OF OUR JUSTIFICATION
God acts on our behalf when we trust him, when we do. he imputs his righteousness to me, this is justification, and the cause of regeneration
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we can not talk about this until we talk about the woman who was bleeding who touched him
she was also not clean.. and technically should have made Jesus unclean
but that's according to the law..
Jesus came to fulfill the law.. He ate with sinners. He walk with the unclean. if these would make him unclean. then Jesus would be disqualified. because not all of them received Christ.. so they would never have been born gain
jesus came to save the unclean. and he did.. their faith made them well..
ReverendRV
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It feels as if you're avoiding things Brother; but your example is close. Why not accept the Temporal Order, since you understand it regarding these examples?
Woman with Blood ~ by ReverendRV * December 22
Hebrews 9:22 KJV; And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.
I know someone who is concerned that he may not be Saved because he may have not believed correctly and worries that all he has done would have been in Vain; ‘he was just playing Church’. In response to him, I brought up the example from the Bible of a woman who had an issue of blood for 12 years. She had suffered a great deal under the care of many doctors who could not heal her and had spent all she had, yet instead of getting better she grew worse. She had heard about Jesus, so she came up behind him through the crowd and touched his robe. For she thought to herself, "If I can just touch his robe, I will be healed." Immediately the fountain of her blood was dried up, and she felt in her body that she was healed of the affliction. Jesus realized at once that healing power had gone out from him, so he turned around in the crowd and asked, "Who touched my robe?" Then the frightened woman, trembling at the realization of what had happened to her, came and fell to her knees in front of him and told him what she had done. And he said to her, ‘Daughter, your Faith has made you well. Go in peace; your suffering is over.’
When a person is trying to please God in hopes that their own efforts will satisfy him, this is like trying to remit your own Sins with your own issue of blood. A person’s own blood is defiled because they themselves need purification. A person like this can spend all their resources and all their lives reaching out to ‘Doctors of the Soul’ who cannot heal them; who will only want to make merchandise of them. When they come to an end of themselves, they will go to Jesus Christ who is ‘the Great Physician of the Soul’! His services are free and when you come to him, you no longer issue proverbial blood from your body as a sacrifice for your Sin; it dries up. All this is true but there is still no Remission of Sin without blood. ~ The Bible tells us about times Priests offered Sacrifices to God. Israel people Lied, committed Adultery, and made Idols to other gods. The Priest would take two goats for Sacrifice and would cast lots between them. Because of this, one goat would be Sacrificed but the other goat would be a Scapegoat, which was sent away from the people; symbolically bearing their Sin burden away. The blood of the Sacrificed goat would represent Atonement for their Sins and they would be clean in the sight of God that day. Moses taught this Sacrifice as a yearly ordinance; but their blood is polluted too…
John the Baptist said while speaking of Jesus, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the Sin of the world!” God intended that the old Sacrificial system represent the coming of Jesus Christ. He was nailed to a Cross and shed his blood as a Sacrifice for your Sin. The Prophet Isaiah said, ‘When you make his Soul a Sacrifice for Sin, God shall see the labor of his Soul and be Satisfied’. Shedding the blood of a lamb was only temporary as a ritual and was repeated annually; Jesus was Sacrificed once for all. Not only is Jesus our Sacrificial lamb but he is also our Scapegoat who bore our Sins on the Cross. ~ We are Forgiven by the Grace of God through Faith in Jesus Christ as our risen Lord and Savior; apart from our paying with our own Life’s blood. Your suffering is over, we do NOT pay our own way to Heaven; stop spending all you have and just trust Jesus…
Romans 10:11 KJV; For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
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Do you not see that you, in spite of all your angst, learning, yearning, self-centered and self-important mental activity, and all the effects you now consider to be God working on you prior to being born again, can be completely mistaken because of your viewpoint, and your interpretation of your experience?
Some people have a flash bang experience, others one day realize (without any particular tipping point) that they believe, others "seem to just come to know the Lord". None of the real faith is possible without God changing the dead to life in order to accomplish it. It is not YOUR decision that saves, nor that enables God to save, but God that makes you alive, enabling you to repent, believe, pursue Christ. Your view of your experience is irrelevant to the facts.
Let me try to put it this way: Faith itself is a gift of God, and not something you can decide to do/have at a crisis moment. There are myriads of reasons to believe this, besides Scripture's proofs of it. If Saving Faith is not the work of God, but yours to decide to have, where is the strength of it? Where is the value in it? Where is the wisdom and understanding necessary to validate it? Why should God respect it? How many promises and decisions and resolutions have you made and forgotten? Why did you forget them, or go back on them? —This faith is a whole different thing, that depends on God himself, and not on you to make. God chose you; it is not your choice that made the difference.
We are silly, ignorant, temporary and temporal persons. You get slapped in the head hard enough you can forget who you are and what you knew you no longer do. Are you still a believer? How do you know this—because you once made a decision? Because you feel it in your self-deceiving heart? If you belong to God, you still do, because of who he is, and not because of what you are.
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I accept the temporal order my friend, I just see it different than you I already explained no one had to be clean before Jesus touched them in my view and why.. here is another example, remember the man Jesus healed. After he received his site. Jesus said he must go clean according to the law. ie, he had to go wash in the pool of siloam proving he was not clean before Jesus touched him, but his faith made him whole
1. the wage of sin is death
2. Which means we can not be made alive until our wage is paid (debt)
3. The term for being cleared of debt, or having ones sentence commuted or forgiven is justification (a legal term)
4. Hence justification MUST occur before regeneration is even possible
5. Since we are justified by or through faith. that means faith must proceed both justification and regeneration.
of course before any of this can even occur, God must draw us, teach us, with the Holy Spirit help us understand, and then in most cases bring us to our knees.
Sadly. I have seen many a person brought to their knees and walked away not having received the gift God offered them. walking away in tears. because they just could not trust.. they believed, but something kept them back (pride is my guess)
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You just lost me there brother.
if this is what you think, we have nothing more to even consider.
1. I have no angst. I am confident and secure
2. I have not been self centered concerning the gospel for over 4 decades now
3. I have no importance. I point to God and him alone.. and in all of thse passages I shared with you. that shows what my faith is in, Its not in self. it is in everything God did, He promised. and his word. Faith is the substance of things hoped for.
My Hope is in the eternal life. God who promised before time began, said I haven
not in anything i do
ReverendRV
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What's the Verse/Passage for that?
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John 9:
6 When He had said these things, He spat on the ground and made clay with the saliva; and He anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay. 7 And He said to him, “Go, wash in the pool of Siloam” (which is translated, Sent). So he went and washed, and came back seeing.
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That's a good point. I'll have to chew on that...
My first thought would be it was a purification ritual, but I'll think on it...
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From a brief study, Jesus touched several Unclean things. According to the Law he Kept, this would make him Unclean. That is what I will have to go with. Christ touching Jarius' daughter's dead body would have made him Unclean. I believe she must have been Alive in some sense, for Jesus to have avoided the Sin of touching a dead body. He said she wasn't Dead, right? He had an excuse. I don't know why I haven't thought about this earlier; it's probably because I already believe his Healing Touch and the Sinner's Uncleanliness has a Temporal Order which satisfies both sides. Do you see why I can't accept Jesus defiling himself? @His clay
Can you see why I believe that Faith and Regeneration are both first in a Temporal Order?
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