Foreknowledge

[fastfredy0]

Caused me to have? How so?

I believe it is in the new creation, the new heart, which possesses faith. But this happens through regeneration.

Agreed. You respond to the Spirit's 'regeneration' by have a new heart, by believing and repenting. This is your response to God's regeneration/call. Going back to the question: option 1 says we respond which is true ... people just read into the option 1 that the response is cause by oneself when option 1 doesn't say what caused our response.

No, my response is proof God did the work.

Agreed. You are saved by your response that God caused to happen because God did the work. John 6:29

The new man in Christ possesses faith, it's a gift.

Agreed. We agree on most everything except you do not apply it to option #1 to show why option #1 is false. There is nothing false with option 1 or 2. Point out what you think is false about option 1 specifically as this is the point of our disagreement. Again, I think we have a semantics issue and not a difference in doctrine.

 

[Eleanor]

Are you a Lutheran?
Just curious. Lutherans are awesome.

Well, I'm NT and in agreement with the WCF, and I thought that made me Presbyterian theologically. No?

 

[David1701]

When did I call God random? Actually, He’s the opposite of random. Read my post again.

That's true: you said that you believe that election is based on merit, which is heretical.

 

[David1701]

getting personal? still doing that? Come on, David.

Think about it. What would have been that knowledge about those chosen individuals that precipitated God to predestinate them, consequently call them, justify them and finally glorify them?

You are a false teacher and you have not repented of it. You need to be treated accordingly.

Election is of grace (UNMERITED favour). That is what the Bible says.

Rom. 11:5,6 (WEB)
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

You might get away with your falsehood on that other forum, but you won't here. There are strong Christians here who won't put up with it.

 

[Selah7]

That's true: you said that you believe that election is based on merit, which is heretical.

Are you calling me a heretic now? Shame on you.

 

[Carbon]

Agreed. You respond to the Spirit's 'regeneration' by have a new heart, by believing and repenting. This is your response to God's regeneration/call. Going back to the question: option 1 says we respond which is true ... people just read into the option 1 that the response is cause by oneself when option 1 doesn't say what caused our response.

1 God predestined to salvation those who He foreknew would respond to His offer of grace

Option 1 above. It is saying that God predestined those who He knew would believe. But friend, the only reason why they believe is because God predestined them to believe, through regeneration. Do you see the difference?

 

[David1701]

Are you calling me a heretic now? Shame on you.

Yes, you are most certainly a heretic. Shame on YOU!

Stop teaching against what the Bible says!

 

[Carbon]

Agreed. You are saved by your response that God caused to happen because God did the work. John 6:29

Agreed. We agree on most everything except you do not apply it to option #1 to show why option #1 is false. There is nothing false with option 1 or 2. Point out what you think is false about option 1 specifically as this is the point of our disagreement. Again, I think we have a semantics issue and not a difference in doctrine.

Post #49.

 

[Selah7]

This ain’t the place for me. bye!

 

[Carbon]

Well, I'm NT and in agreement with the WCF, and I thought that made me Presbyterian theologically. No?

Yes, you're probably right. Didn't mean to offend.

 

[David1701]

This ain’t the place for me. bye!

Close the door on your way out.

 

[Eleanor]

Yes, you're probably right. Didn't mean to offend.

No offense, brother!
Lutherans are great!
All the born-again are great!

 

[David1701]

Do tell, what was that knowledge that precipitated God to predestine them?

She thinks that God saw something in them that merited being chosen.

 

[David1701]

Be easy on her brother. Try to show why she is making an error.

I have, many times, on another forum (Worthy Christian Forums). She knows very well what the Bible says and refuses to repent of her false teaching. In fact, one the main reasons I left that forum (permanently - my choice, I was not suspended or banned) was that they would not deal with false teachers (more than one) and, instead, attacked those who tried to correct them.

 

[Carbon]

Yes, you're probably right. Didn't mean to offend.

@Eleanor

I agree with the WCF and I am a congregationalist. Well, most congregational churches I wouldn't be a part of today.

 

[David1701]

OK, well, we are here now. Let the past forum things remain there.

Titus 3:10, 11 (KJV)
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

If you want to try, knock yourself out. I've been there and done that.

 

[Carbon]

Agreed. You respond to the Spirit's 'regeneration' by have a new heart, by believing and repenting. This is your response to God's regeneration/call. Going back to the question: option 1 says we respond which is true ... people just read into the option 1 that the response is cause by oneself when option 1 doesn't say what caused our response.



Agreed. You are saved by your response that God caused to happen because God did the work. John 6:29



Agreed. We agree on most everything except you do not apply it to option #1 to show why option #1 is false. There is nothing false with option 1 or 2. Point out what you think is false about option 1 specifically as this is the point of our disagreement. Again, I think we have a semantics issue and not a difference in doctrine.

fastfredy, would you show me where foreseen faith, good works, etc are in this verse?

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. Romans 8:29.

 

[fastfredy0]

Could it be you? I'm thinking, yes, it's you.

Re: semantic .... lol... yeah, it could be me. Yeah, I imagine we both think it's the other guy. Funny how that works. *giggle*

But it does. You're conflating conditional election with unconditional election. You're confused.

Re: The first option says nothing about man's merit.

Ah, good ... we're at the CRUX of our issue. Exactly what in option 1 says man does something to merit God's grace.
All Option 1 says is that we respond .... it does not say what caused the response and therefore does not address conditional/unconditional election.
We both believe in Unconditional Election IMO. That's beside the point. The semantic point is that you feel option 1 explicitly points to Condition Election and I say you are reading into it. I say the cause of our response is not stated in option 1. Show me in option 1 conditional election.


Re: There is nothing in option 1 that says man MERITED anything.

But there is.

Well, point it out. Where does option 1 say the cause of man's response is the man and not God. SHOW ME. I can't show you as my stance is that it isn't there. I think you're reading Conditional Election into option 1. (semantics)

Lol, making it that God chose them BECAUSE of the response is merit based. Romans 9:11ff show forth your error here. You're teaching conditional election. That's anti-Biblical and the epitome of merit. 1 Corinthians 1:26-31 refutes such a notion.

I believe strongly in Uncondtional Election. I also believe in reading and misinterpreting the thread question literally using common english grammar. SHOW ME. I can't show you as my stance is that it isn't there. I think you're reading Conditional Election into option 1. (semantics)


Re: In the case of salvation God causes one to respond and thus God is the one that merits (gets all the credit) for ones salvation.

That is non sequitur and contradictory to the propositions.

The crux of the matter is for you to show Conditional Election in option 1. I made statement to show I am all for Unconditional Election and that is not the issue.

The bottom line is both options have God choosing others because they would "respond." That's merit based, not grace based.

Option 1 does not say this. The "because" or "why" of option 1 is:

God predestined to salvation those who He foreknew would respond​

The WHY God did it is because He predestined it. Predestined means God determined we would respond. There is nothing in option 1 saying we respond due to free will. You IMO assume FREE WILL into option 1. Gee, everyone tends to assume anything we do is due to ourselves rather than the First Cause of all things.

 

[fastfredy0]

No! We are not saved by our response. We are saved by grace; Ephesians 2:4ff.

You're teaching decisional regeneration.

We must RESPOND to be saved. Have you responded on not?

Now, the reason we respond is God; is God's grace. God causes us to respond to His grace. We cannot be saved without responding... show me how if you disagree.



We are saved by our faith. Do you not have faith?

Now, the reason we have faith is God (John 6:29). God causes us to have faith. No one is saved with faith. It is not God's faith that saves us, it is your faith that saves you; said faith a result of regeneration/God. We cannot be saved without faith ... show me how if you disagree.

 

[Carbon]

fastfredy, would you show me where foreseen faith, good works, etc are in this verse?

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. Romans 8:29.

@fastfredy0

It is indefensible to add faith to foreknew.

I've seen Arminians add these, not because the language requires it but because Arminian theology does.