The Ordo Salutis

[Carbon]

Does the Bible indicate a definite Ordo Salutis?

Personally, I believe, that while it does not explicitly furnish us a complete order of salvation, it offers us a sufficient basis for such an order.

Consider Romans 8:29-30.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
But since the bible does not give us a clear-cut Ordo Salutis, it does do two things to enable us to construe such an order.
1, It furnishes us with a very full and rich enumeration of the operations of the Holy Spirit in applying the work of Christ to individual sinners, and of the blessings of salvation imparted to them.
2, It indicates in many passages and in various ways the relation in which the different movements in the work of redemption stand to each other. It teaches that we are justified by faith and not by works, Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.; 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: ; Gal 2:16-20
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. ; That being justified, we have peace with God and assess to Him, Romans 5:1-2
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
that we are set free from sin to become servants of righteousness and to reap the fruit of sanctification.

Thoughts?

 

[Alive]

Yes--all of the Riches of Christ are a reality for us the very moment the Father places us in Him..excepting the final Resurrrection in time and space.
One might argue that our foreordination is first in order, but beyond that---there is no 1,2.3. We get the whole package at once.

 

[1Thess521]

Does the Bible indicate a definite Ordo Salutis?

Romans 8:
28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Acts 16:
14 One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.

 

[fastfredy0]

Personally, I believe, that while it does not explicitly furnish us a complete order of salvation, it offers us a sufficient basis for such an order.

Agreed ... I vote for supralapsarian.View attachment 963

 

[Carbon]

Agreed ... I vote for supralapsarian.View attachment 963

I vote the same.

 

[Mr GLee]

Does the Bible indicate a definite Ordo Salutis?

Personally, I believe, that while it does not explicitly furnish us a complete order of salvation, it offers us a sufficient basis for such an order.

Consider Romans 8:29-30.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
But since the bible does not give us a clear-cut Ordo Salutis, it does do two things to enable us to construe such an order.
1, It furnishes us with a very full and rich enumeration of the operations of the Holy Spirit in applying the work of Christ to individual sinners, and of the blessings of salvation imparted to them.
2, It indicates in many passages and in various ways the relation in which the different movements in the work of redemption stand to each other. It teaches that we are justified by faith and not by works, Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.; 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: ; Gal 2:16-20
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. ; That being justified, we have peace with God and assess to Him, Romans 5:1-2
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
that we are set free from sin to become servants of righteousness and to reap the fruit of sanctification.

Thoughts?

The truth of the miracle . . that we can offer our "good works" to a invisible God is a bonus gift that acompanies salvation. Being born again .he promises he will not forget the good works of those yoked with his labor of love

Philippian 2 declares it is God who works in us to both (the key) understand his will and empower us to do it to his good pleasure

Hebrew 6:9-10 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

 

[Josheb]

The poll asks,

Does the Bible teach or indicate a Ordo Saludis?"

...while the opening post asks,

Does the Bible indicate a definite Ordo Salutis?

Those are, technically, two different questions. The Bible could teach or indicate an order of salvation that is not definite. Some of the exceptions to the rule (like those who had only the baptism of John) would at least seemingly indicate the order is not definite or definitive.

Personally, I believe, that while it does not explicitly furnish us a complete order of salvation, it offers us a sufficient basis for such an order.

I agree.

Consider Romans 8:29-30.......

Thoughts?

The use of the Romans text is informative but, as a monergist of Reformed persuasion I think it very important to start the Ordo Salutis with eternity and not an eternal event because no eternal event occurs without God "first" acting prior to time. That being said, the temporal order is logically self-evident in scripture once the whole of scripture is considered. For example, how could a person be redeemed or justified or indwelt, or sealed without first being chosen? Since one of the purposes of salvation is good works God had already planned for us to perform (Eph. 2:10), logic dictates a set of planned works existed prior to any gifting of any ability to do those works. Unless we're to think the constituent aspects of the order are to exist and be accomplished in our ignorance then aspects such as calling and knowledge and understanding must be included. How (for example) could someone perform already-prescribed good works without having been chosen and called?

Since the order is not explicitly stated and laid out for us, the biggest challenge is putting that together. Some of the aspects overlap. Justification, for example, occurs in several ways and there are pre-regeneration or pre-conversion aspects and post-conversion aspects. Therefore a few conditions or events might be listed twice or thrice in the order salutis. while others only once. For example, a simple statement like, "...we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law," (Rom. 3:28) necessarily means faith must exist prior to justification, otherwise how could a person be justified by faith? Ephesians 2 states salvation by grace through faith is a gift from God so, again, some order is implicitly established because there can be no faith by which a person is justified if the gifting had not previously occurred. to whom would such gifting be given if God hadn't already chosen and called the one to whom he is gifting? So just these few texts establish some semblance of an order: choosing, then calling, then gifting, then faith, then justification, then works.

But justification also occurs at Calvary. We are justified by the blood of Christ (not merely faith in the blood of Christ), according to Romans 5:9 and, according to James those having faith are also justified by works. Those two texts mean there is a justification that precedes faith and a justification that follows faith. Therefore, either justification gets plugged into the order of salvation multiple times, or it is a long running condition that transcends several steps in the order in differing ways. I am inclined toward the latter because the power effects of the blood of Christ are not fixed in time (and I think that is the point of the blood). I am inclined to think the latter because like many of the other aspects of salvation, justification does not reach its full potential until we stand before God. That's what justification is all about, the ability to stand before God. No one can do that and live apart from the blood of Christ. Therefore, there is a fourth place for justification to be plugged into the ordo salutis! And, of course, the critical event in salvation is our resurrection from the dead and the transformation that occurs thereof. Those three events (physical death, resurrection, and transformation) get plugged into the end of the order of salvation.

Most lists of Ordo Salutis I've read don't get as detailed as I've just been. Some examples (like this one HERE) speak of the order in categorical ways where the events surrounding resurrection would fall under the category of "glorification." The example HERE is a little more detailed but still categorical. And, of course, there are doctrinal biases we impose on scripture because the monergist holds regeneration precedes faith, while the synergist holds the exact opposite point of view. Those two views also effect and/or redefine other constituent events in the Ordo Salutis. For the monergist, for example, the choosing and calling come inherently with a sovereignty to the point neither can or will be effective/ineffective apart from God's will or purpose, but for the synergist the choosing is predicated on a previously existing faith of the sinful flesh and the calling presents and option likewise predicated on the existence of the sinner's fleshly faith. That's a fundamentally different Ordo Salutis.

 

[makesends]

Carbon said:
Does the Bible indicate a definite Ordo Salutis?

The use of the Romans text is informative but, as a monergist of Reformed persuasion I think it very important to start the Ordo Salutis with eternity and not an eternal event because no eternal event occurs without God "first" acting prior to time. That being said, the temporal order is logically self-evident in scripture once the whole of scripture is considered. For example, how could a person be redeemed or justified or indwelt, or sealed without first being chosen? Since one of the purposes of salvation is good works God had already planned for us to perform (Eph. 2:10), logic dictates a set of planned works existed prior to any gifting of any ability to do those works. Unless we're to think the constituent aspects of the order are to exist and be accomplished in our ignorance then aspects such as calling and knowledge and understanding must be included. How (for example) could someone perform already-prescribed good works without having been chosen and called?

Josh is right here. It is not necessarily descriptive that Salvation comes in some time-sequence. But if logic has any prescriptive relevance, there is a logical sequence —that of causation. Both the needy status of man is caused, and the solution is caused —regardless of the logical intervals by the way it happened/happens, both are because of God's intention and action. It begins with creation.

Whether or not it happens within time is irrelevant to the question of sequence. In fact, I can't prove to myself that regeneration must precede (temporally) salvific faith, but only that it logically must. While my stuck-in-the-mud feet insist that the one MUST happen before the other temporally —after all, it is certain that it doesn't happen temporally that faith is produced before regeneration— to my mind the temporal sequence is irrelevant. The fact that I experience a temporal progression, is no proof of anything except that I remain, to a large degree, ignorant of God's ways.

But for those who want to insist that it is relevant, since we are temporal beings, remember that it is only in THIS life that we are bound by time. It is better to call us 'material' beings, because then it may be considered possible that we are saved according to a logical sequence since we are also 'spirit' beings.

Those insisting on self-determinism will have much about which to complain, reading this. But in the end, all their arguments are temporally based.

Maybe most have not considered, that even in our own experience, we don't need to consider time-sequence in order to refrain from madness. But we do need logic. (And yes, admittedly, the worst madmen are pre-eminently logical, but their hard logic depends on unsubstantiated leaps over logical hurdles.)

 

[LeviR]

Does the Bible indicate a definite Ordo Salutis?

Personally, I believe, that while it does not explicitly furnish us a complete order of salvation, it offers us a sufficient basis for such an order.

Consider Romans 8:29-30.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
But since the bible does not give us a clear-cut Ordo Salutis, it does do two things to enable us to construe such an order.
1, It furnishes us with a very full and rich enumeration of the operations of the Holy Spirit in applying the work of Christ to individual sinners, and of the blessings of salvation imparted to them.
2, It indicates in many passages and in various ways the relation in which the different movements in the work of redemption stand to each other. It teaches that we are justified by faith and not by works, Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.; 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: ; Gal 2:16-20
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. ; That being justified, we have peace with God and assess to Him, Romans 5:1-2
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
that we are set free from sin to become servants of righteousness and to reap the fruit of sanctification.

Thoughts?

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Preceding that is faith. Those of faith he predestinated, they are “the called” and justified by faith.

 

[LeviR]

Right?

Faith, predestined, called, justified, glorified.

 

[Mr GLee]

Right?

Faith, predestined, called, justified, glorified.

Yes, faith the power of Christ that he works in us with the treasure not of us.

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us

Faith is a work of Christ.

 

[makesends]

Right?

Faith, predestined, called, justified, glorified.

You line them up as what —sequence of causation/ temporal events/ what?

Do you say that faith precedes predestination causally? (Or even sequentially as far as time is concerned...?) Faith causes predestination, or faith precedes it?

Or is something else going on there in that passage?

Be specific.

 

[Mr GLee]

Right?

Faith, predestined, called, justified, glorified.

Two kinds of faith.

Faithfull and faithless.

One as power the unseen eternal understanding of God "Let it be" A work of faith. . . . Christ's understanding in us, empowering us to do the loving commandments .

Second kind a work of one's own understanding "dead works". . "dead faith" offered towards God

Hebrews 6King James Version Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,. . (not coming from)

Satan the king of lying sign as oral tradition of dying mankind to wonder, wonder ,wonder after as if true prophecy

The faithless ones tried to make Jesus into a sign and wonder seeker. Again to give the illusion of true prophecy

Jesus as some sort of circus seal "do some magic . . .work a miracle then we see it with our own eyes rather than the eyes of faith as it is written hen we wil belive for one half a second

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

 

[Josheb]

The fact that I experience a temporal progression, is no proof of anything except that I remain, to a large degree, ignorant of God's ways.

LOL! On that I am sure we can all agree .

 

[Josheb]

Carbon said:
Does the Bible indicate a definite Ordo Salutis?

Josh is right here. It is not necessarily descriptive that Salvation comes in some time-sequence............

Well.... let me clarify my pov, because I do not believe in magical thinking and/or the premise that salvation is a matter of "poof!" and eternal life is bestowed without any ability to comprehend what has happened given the articulation of scripture., or that all order or sequence of change is absent. There is a causally sequential order to the process of salvation, but it is difficult to define a specific ordo salutis because 1) salvation "began" in eternity and 2) many of salvations aspects overlap non-sequentially, rather than being discrete and finite events.

 

[fastfredy0]

Personally, I believe, that while it does not explicitly furnish us a complete order of salvation, it offers us a sufficient basis for such an order.

I voted "no" but contemplated "yes" as the word "indicate" in the question is open to interpretation. I agree with your statement.
Aside: I'm supralapsarian and as I recall you said you had the same leaning.

 

[makesends]

I'm supralapsarian

Cha-CHING!!! Flashing lights and horns!!! Confetti... Frankly —ok, "to me", (trying to be nice here),— I can make no sense of infralapsarianism, but I don't wish to talk down to those that hold to it.

God is God, not man. He is not subject to time sequence, nor, for that matter, to causal sequence. They are both built by him. If God decided anything, he decided it at the beginning, and does not change. Redemption came because of the fall, but the fall came because God said so, the whole story from beginning to end spoken at the beginning.

Ok, back to ordo salutis, but no, I'm not sorry for the tangent.