Foreknowledge

[Carbon]

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. Romans 8:29-30

What is the meaning of foreknew?

There are basically two meanings of the word "foreknew" in Romans 8. Arminians and Calvinists each have an understanding.

 

[Carbon]

The Arminians claim the foreknew in Romans 8:29 is about God forknowing who would come to believe in Jesus. And from seeing who, these are those He calls elect.

So Arminians believe God foreknew which sinners would believe, and on the basis of that knowledge, He predestined them unto salvation.

Does anyone see the issues here? There is so much wrong with this view I don't know where to start.

First the Calvinist view

 

[Carbon]

Calvinism teaches that God set His heart upon certain individuals, and these He predestined or marked out to be saved.

Notice also that the verse does not say that God knew something about any individual, but it states that God knew the individuals themselves. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son

The word foreknew here is equivalent to foreloved.

 

[Carbon]

Haldane said, comparing scripture to scripture, clearly shows that the foreknowledge mentioned in Romans 8:29 cannot have reference to foreseen faith, good works, or a sinner's response to God's call.

Faith cannot be the cause of foreknowledge, because foreknowledge is before predestination, and faith is the effect of predestination.
As many as were ordained to eternal life believed Acts 13:48.

 

[armylngst]

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. Romans 8:29-30

What is the meaning of foreknew?

There are basically two meanings of the word "foreknew" in Romans 8. Arminians and Calvinists each have an understanding.

Can he choose someone he doesn't know will exist? I believe God knows all who will exist, however, the parable of the wheat and the tares begs the question. Did God foreknow the tares? After all the parable states that the evil one came in and planted the tares.

I believe that God knew all who would exist (foreknow), and chose those to be conformed to His Son, and it is worded this way to say that God knew from the beginning all who would live in this world.

 

[Carbon]

Can he choose someone he doesn't know will exist?

If somone ever exists without Him knowing, then He wouldn't be God.

I believe God knows all who will exist,

Amen.

however, the parable of the wheat and the tares begs the question. Did God foreknow the tares? After all the parable states that the evil one came in and planted the tares.

The evil one couldn't plant unless it was allowed by God.

I believe that God knew all who would exist (foreknow), and chose those to be conformed to His Son, and it is worded this way to say that God knew from the beginning all who would live in this world.

Who are the those?


Oh and welcome to the forum.

 

[armylngst]

If somone ever exists without Him knowing, then He wouldn't be God.

Amen.

The evil one couldn't plant unless it was allowed by God.

Who are the those?


Oh and welcome to the forum.

It is difficult to parse this because it seems to say that everyone God foreknew will be conformed to the image of His Son, when we know that isn't the case. (If we believe God foreknew everyone who would ever exist, that they would be covered by "Those whom He foreknew".) A real brain twister.

Oh, thanks. I figured I would look.

 

[Eleanor]

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. Romans 8:29-30

What is the meaning of foreknew?

There are basically two meanings of the word "foreknew" in Romans 8. Arminians and Calvinists each have an understanding.

Good question.

Firstly, when used in the NT, it (pronosis) always refers to God's foreknowledge, not man's foreknowledge.

Secondly, God's foreknowledge does not mean looking down the corridors of time and seeing in advance what man is going to do.
That again is man's view of foreknowledge (prognosis).

God's foreknowledge is entirely of his own actions (Ro 8:29, 11:2, 1 Pe 1:20), it is not concerning man's actions.

"Known to the Lord for ages is his work." (Ac 15:18)

God knows what is going to happen in advance because he has decreed from before the foundations of the world that it shall happen.

So all this chatter about God's election depending on his foreknowledge of what man is going to do is contra-Biblical, because that is not the Bbilical meaning of God's foreknowledge as used in Scripture, which is his foreknowledge of his actions.

 

[David1701]

Calvinism teaches that God set His heart upon certain individuals, and these He predestined or marked out to be saved.

Notice also that the verse does not say that God knew something about any individual, but it states that God knew the individuals themselves. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son

The word foreknew here is equivalent to foreloved.

Yes!

Foreknow (proginosko)

BDAG:
προγινώσκω

1. to know beforehand or in advance, have foreknowledge (of) τί someth.
Hs 7:5. Abs., in advance 2 Pt 3:17.

2. choose beforehand τινά someone Ro 8:29., 11:2, Pass. of Christ προεγνωσμένος πρὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου 1 Pt 1:20.—Know from time past προγινώσκοντές με ἄνωθεν Ac 26:5.

 

[armylngst]

Good question.

Firstly, when used in the NT, it (pronosis) always refers to God's foreknowledge, not man's foreknowledge.

Secondly, God's foreknowledge does not mean looking down the corridors of time and seeing in advance what man is going to do.
That again is man's view of foreknowledge (prognosis).

God's foreknowledge is entirely of his own actions, it is not concerning man's actions.

"Known to the Lord for ages is his work." (Ac 15:18)

God knows what is going to happen in advance because he has decreed from before the foundations of the world that it shall happen.

So all this chatter about God's election depending on his foreknowledge of what man is going to do is contra-Biblical, because that is not the Bbilical meaning of God's foreknowledge as used in Scripture, which is his foreknowledge of his actions.

I think you misunderstood where my confusion lies. One can read it as all (the whole human race) God foreknew, he predestined. By foreknow, I do not mean he saw into the future, he already knows everything. The question is how to set proper limits on how Paul worded it. How do we understand what Paul wrote to avoid saying it is everyone? It is probably in the verses that come prior that I still haven't looked at.

 

[Selah7]

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. Romans 8:29-30

What is the meaning of foreknew?

There are basically two meanings of the word "foreknew" in Romans 8. Arminians and Calvinists each have an understanding.

So who are these that were chosen long ago before the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God? They are the Elect, and they deserved to be chosen. God knew them, and He approved of them and elected them—they were chosen to be used by Him according to His purpose.

 

[David1701]

So who are these that were chosen long ago before the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God? They are the Elect, and they deserved to be chosen. God knew them, and He approved of them and elected them—they were chosen to be used by Him according to His purpose.

No! No!! NO!!!

The elect DO NOT deserve to be chosen! Salvation is by grace (UNMERITED favour).

 

[Selah7]

No! No!! NO!!!

The elect DO NOT deserve to be chosen! Salvation is by grace (UNMERITED favour).

See? Again we meet with the same disagreement. You think the Elect were just randomly chosen?

 

[Eleanor]

I think you misunderstood where my confusion lies. One can read it as all (the whole human race) God foreknew, he predestined. By foreknow, I do not mean he saw into the future, he already knows everything. The question is how to set proper limits on how Paul worded it. How do we understand what Paul wrote to avoid saying it is everyone? It is probably in the verses that come prior that I still haven't looked at.

I didn't realize I was addressing you.

God's foreknowledge being of his actions by his own decree, that foreknowledge is of the ones whom his decree has elected.

 

[Eleanor]

See? Again we meet with the same disagreement. You think the Elect were just randomly chosen?

You are confusing "random" with "sovereign."

 

[armylngst]

I didn't realize I was addressing you.

God's foreknowledge being of his actions by his own decree, that foreknowledge is of the ones whom his decree has elected.

It popped up in my email, so I apparently assumed. Oops. I could use some of that human foreknowledge...

 

[fastfredy0]

Re:

1. God predestined to salvation those who He foreknew would respond to His offer of grace​

2. God set His heart upon (ie. foreknew) certain individuals, these He predestined to be saved.God predestined to salvation those who He foreknew would respond to His offer of grace​

Both '1' and '2' sound correct to me as stated, though I selected '2' as I assumed a 'free will' inference was intended in #1 though it is not stated directly.​

All those that God predestines respond to His offer [because God causes them to respond].​

 

[Selah7]

You are confusing "random" with "sovereign."

No, I’m not. I understand the meaning of both words.

 

[armylngst]

See? Again we meet with the same disagreement. You think the Elect were just randomly chosen?

Ephesians 1 says that it was according to the good pleasure of his will. Do you believe God is random, or that God has a mind of His own, and can do whatever He pleases? He created the world, so He can do whatever He desires within it. He decided to choose some of His creation to be adopted as children through Christ, and once again, according to the good pleasure of His will. (I know, that is a more complicated way of saying He felt like it.) I have one simple request of you. If you decide to go calling God random, let me know so I can verify my distance to your approximate location...I don't want to take any chances.

 

[Carbon]

So who are these that were chosen long ago before the foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God? They are the Elect,

They are the elect because they were chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world.

and they deserved to be chosen.

Not according to scripture. They were chosen by God as the bride of Christ, vessels of mercy by God's pleasure to do so and according to the kind intention of His will.

God knew them, and He approved of them and elected them

Oh yes, God knew them. He also knew they would be, by nature, children of wrath. But it's not up to man, it's up to God.

Romans 9:11 Speaking about the twins, Jacob and Esau: though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls

—they were chosen to be used by Him according to His purpose.

They were chosen for God's good pleasure and given to Christ as His bride.