Rom 8:29

[prism]

Isn’t Paul speaking of those who have died and rest in hope to be conformed into the image of His son that they may be sons of God being sons of the resurrection?

Yes, they are the regenerate ones.

 

[LeviR]

Yes, they are the regenerate ones.

Do you think Paul is suggesting that those who died in faith God foreknows and has predestined them to His kingdom when it comes?

 

[JIM]

Perhaps you don’t know that the law was given only to the Jews. Gentiles were never under God’s laws.

Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

The only law they are under is the law of sin and death whereby Adam’s sin caused the death of everyone. Because everyone shares the same nature he did when he sinned.
Before the law came, men died without having the law. That’s because of their sinful nature which has been condemned by God through Adam.

God created man with that sinful nature. He would not condemn anyone for what He created.

When Christ came, being under the law, with that same nature, he personally did not commit sin, and therefore God accepted his sacrifice and condemned the sinful nature on the cross. So we must look to him to be saved. Rom 8:1-5

Otherwise we remain under the condemnation brought by Adam’s sin when death past to all of mankind because of our sinful nature. We will die and return to dust, end of story.

Mankind is under the condemnation brought by their own sin, not Adam's. Death did not pass to all mankind because of a sinful nature; rather death passed to all mankind because all sinned. (Rom 5:12)

 

[JIM]

Their every thought is corrupted with sin. With every breath they rebel. Read Romans 8 again. They are unable to please God. Sin.

That is just not true. The love of a mother for her child is not sin, no matter whether she is a believer or not. {edit}

 

[JIM]

Isn’t Paul speaking of those who have died and rest in hope to be conformed into the image of His son that they may be sons of God being sons of the resurrection?

It is not about those who have died. It is about all that love God. They can only love God if they believe Him and believe in Him.

 

[JIM]

Yes, they are the regenerate ones.

They, those who love God, are they ones that He regenerates.

Ephesians 1:13

(ESV) In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

(KJV) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[EarlyActs]

Right back atcha!

That’s why I asked you to render things in Romans 5 and 2 Cor 5 where the imputation of Adam’s sin is mentioned and solved by that of Christs.

Have you defined imputation?

Another passage like this would be Rom 11:30. God has bound all men over to sin so that he might …

 

[EarlyActs]

Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

God created man with that sinful nature. He would not condemn anyone for what He created.

Mankind is under the condemnation brought by their own sin, not Adam's. Death did not pass to all mankind because of a sinful nature; rather death passed to all mankind because all sinned. (Rom 5:12)

God did not create man with the sinful nature he now has through Adam.

Man did not have the debt of sin from the first moment. There was a time of innocence.

You might compare imputation to the case of the animals destroyed in the cataclysm. Some of them might have been bizarre results of cross breeding but not all. But all perished bc of the great evil and most by imputation.

Have you defined imputation yet?

 

[Mr GLee]

God did not create man with the sinful nature he now has through Adam.

Man did not have the debt of sin from the first moment. There was a time of innocence.

You might compare imputation to the case of the animals destroyed in the cataclysm. Some of them might have been bizarre results of cross breeding but not all. But all perished bc of the great evil and most by imputation.

Have you defined imputation yet?

Yes, the letter of the law "death" it was there. Thou shall not in efect . . . .Do not to add or subtract from the will of our unseen God (sola scriptura). Never about wrestling against flesh and blood.

False prophecy the poison of serpents the fruit of oral traditons of dying mankind .

Satan using the weaker vessel Eve to represent the bride or church .Adam to represent Christ not seen .

Adam received the revelation "Thou shall not eat. . . in effect Do not add or subtract from my will. or you will die Adam failed to protect Eve from the false prohecy . "Neither shall you touch" . . . Satan the antichrist adding a oral tradition to wonder after as if it was the faith that comes by hearing as it is written .The tree hidden in the center of the garden as a parable represented eternal life.

Satan getting out his weapon of warfare . The lust of the flesh, the mysterious drawing power "and it was good". It did not turn out good for them . Lust eye. . . drawing to touch, having touched they did eat and not die so they ate the fruit of death .false prophecy

The two building blocks of false pride. . . Lust of the flesh working with lust of the eye the formula for false pride .

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

 

[prism]

Do you think Paul is suggesting that those who died in faith God foreknows and has predestined them to His kingdom when it comes?

Yes.

 

[LeviR]

Yes.

I would think He first knows them when they know Him. When they call Him by name, He then knows their name.
“You are the Christ, the son of the living God”. “And you are Peter. And upon this rock I will build my Church”.

When God knows those that are His, and after they die, He is said to foreknow them and predestined them to His coming kingdom.

 

[JIM]

God did not create man with the sinful nature he now has through Adam.

Then where did Adam get his sinful nature. The simple truth is that sinful nature is an integral part of the human being that comes with the free will ability to choose whether to obey or disobey. That is inherent in creation. We, like Adam, have the sinful nature as a part of creation. But none of that constitutes sin, per se. It is only when we, like Adam, choose to disobey and therefore sin. That is what is accounted against us. T

Man did not have the debt of sin from the first moment. There was a time of innocence.

Of course not. Because the sin nature, the free will ability to choose to obey or not is not sin. It is only once we choose not to obey that we then sin and reap the spiritual injury of sin, i.e, eternal condemnation.

You might compare imputation to the case of the animals destroyed in the cataclysm. Some of them might have been bizarre results of cross breeding but not all. But all perished bc of the great evil and most by imputation.

Have you defined imputation yet?

Definition from Dictionary.com:

1. to attribute or ascribe:
   The children imputed magical powers to the old woman.
2. to attribute or ascribe (something discreditable), as to a person.
3. Law. to ascribe to or charge (a person) with an act or quality because of the conduct of another over whom one has control or for whose acts or conduct one is responsible.
4. Theology. to attribute (righteousness, guilt, etc.) to a person or persons vicariously; ascribe as derived from another.
5. Obsolete. to charge (a person) with fault.

From Strong's Hebrew Dictionary:

H2803
חָשַׁב
châshab
khaw-shab'
A primitive root; properly to plait or interpenetrate, that is, (literally) to weave or (generally) to fabricate; figuratively to plot or contrive (usually in a malicious sense); hence (from the mental effort) to think, regard, value, compute: - (make) account (of), conceive, consider, count, cunning (man, work, workman), devise, esteem, find out, forecast, hold, imagine, impute, invent, be like, mean, purpose, reckon (-ing be made), regard, think.

From Strong's Greek Dictionary:

G3049
λογίζομαι
logizomai
log-id'-zom-ahee
Middle voice from G3056; to take an inventory, that is, estimate (literally or figuratively): - conclude, (ac-) count (of), + despise, esteem, impute, lay, number, reason, reckon, suppose, think (on).


It is important to understand that, while we do read that God imputes His righteousness to another, never do we ever read that God imputes the sin of anyone to another. In the one place it may seem that is the case, i.e, Romans 5, it is then recorded that the effect that might have occurred due to Adam was effectively negated due to Jesus Christ. Thus, the only sin that was/is imputed to any individual is that committed by the individual.
The imputation of sin to anyone affects only the spirit of that person. That person dies spiritually. The actual sin itself may bring about some physical or mental result but that is all rather beside the point with respect to one's standing before God.

Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

 

[JIM]

When God knows those that are His, and after they die, He is said to foreknow them and predestined them to His coming kingdom.

God is omniscient. God knows everything, past, present and future. His knowledge of the future is total; it is called His foreknowledge. He foreknows everything. He foreknows those who love God. They are the ones He predestines (Rom 8:29).

 

[Mr GLee]

I would think He first knows them when they know Him. When they call Him by name, He then knows their name.
“You are the Christ, the son of the living God”. “And you are Peter. And upon this rock I will build my Church”.

Knowing Him empowers us to call on his name power .He faithfully gives it to us yoked with His labor of Love.

 

[prism]

I would think He first knows them when they know Him. When they call Him by name, He then knows their name.
“You are the Christ, the son of the living God”. “And you are Peter. And upon this rock I will build my Church”.

When God knows those that are His, and after they die, He is said to foreknow them and predestined them to His coming kingdom.

(Gal 1:15) But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb and called me through His grace,
(Gal 1:16) to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood,

before that...

(Act 8:3) But Saul began ravaging the church, entering house after house; and he would drag away men and women and put them in prison.

Acts 9:1-2 (KJV) And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

Hardly 'loving the Lord'.

 

[makesends]

That is just not true. The love of a mother for her child is not sin, no matter whether she is a believer or not. You have a terribly corrupted view of what sin is.

Romans 8:8 "Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God." is not true? I hesitate to ask you for your spin on it. What—is everyone born again already?

The only good in any of us, lost or found, is God's work. Of herself, the love of a mother for her child is (take your pick) God's direct work by the same affection and care that a rhinocerous mother has for her young, or it is good deeds by God's impetus (direct or indirect). Do you suppose that once God withdraws his virtue from a person and relegates him to the Lake of Fire that there will be anything good left in that person?

You can't help but let your notion of some basic good in the flesh rule your narrative.

There is none good. No, not even one.

 

[JIM]

Romans 8:8 "Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God." is not true? I hesitate to ask you for your spin on it. What—is everyone born again already?

The only good in any of us, lost or found, is God's work. Of herself, the love of a mother for her child is (take your pick) God's direct work by the same affection and care that a rhinocerous mother has for her young, or it is good deeds by God's impetus (direct or indirect). Do you suppose that once God withdraws his virtue from a person and relegates him to the Lake of Fire that there will be anything good left in that person?

The rhinoceros does according to instincts. While it is natural for the human mother to care for her child, that is not instinct. You really should learn the difference. Without knowing the difference, you are much confused.

You can't help but let your notion of some basic good in the flesh rule your narrative.

There is none good. No, not even one.

And that of course includes you even now.

 

[makesends]

The rhinoceros does according to instincts. While it is natural for the human mother to care for her child, that is not instinct. You really should learn the difference. Without knowing the difference, you are much confused.

I didn't say there is no difference. In fact, I pointed out the fact that besides what you term, 'instinctive', the rest of what is Good about that mother is by God's doing.

And that of course includes you even now.

Of course. All of us. Nothing I do good is endemic to me, or of my ontology alone, but of God. Your point?

 

[EarlyActs]

Then where did Adam get his sinful nature. The simple truth is that sinful nature is an integral part of the human being that comes with the free will ability to choose whether to obey or disobey. That is inherent in creation. We, like Adam, have the sinful nature as a part of creation. But none of that constitutes sin, per se. It is only when we, like Adam, choose to disobey and therefore sin. That is what is accounted against us. T

Of course not. Because the sin nature, the free will ability to choose to obey or not is not sin. It is only once we choose not to obey that we then sin and reap the spiritual injury of sin, i.e, eternal condemnation.

Definition from Dictionary.com:

1. to attribute or ascribe:
   The children imputed magical powers to the old woman.
2. to attribute or ascribe (something discreditable), as to a person.
3. Law. to ascribe to or charge (a person) with an act or quality because of the conduct of another over whom one has control or for whose acts or conduct one is responsible.
4. Theology. to attribute (righteousness, guilt, etc.) to a person or persons vicariously; ascribe as derived from another.
5. Obsolete. to charge (a person) with fault.

From Strong's Hebrew Dictionary:

H2803
חָשַׁב
châshab
khaw-shab'
A primitive root; properly to plait or interpenetrate, that is, (literally) to weave or (generally) to fabricate; figuratively to plot or contrive (usually in a malicious sense); hence (from the mental effort) to think, regard, value, compute: - (make) account (of), conceive, consider, count, cunning (man, work, workman), devise, esteem, find out, forecast, hold, imagine, impute, invent, be like, mean, purpose, reckon (-ing be made), regard, think.

From Strong's Greek Dictionary:

G3049
λογίζομαι
logizomai
log-id'-zom-ahee
Middle voice from G3056; to take an inventory, that is, estimate (literally or figuratively): - conclude, (ac-) count (of), + despise, esteem, impute, lay, number, reason, reckon, suppose, think (on).


It is important to understand that, while we do read that God imputes His righteousness to another, never do we ever read that God imputes the sin of anyone to another. In the one place it may seem that is the case, i.e, Romans 5, it is then recorded that the effect that might have occurred due to Adam was effectively negated due to Jesus Christ. Thus, the only sin that was/is imputed to any individual is that committed by the individual.
The imputation of sin to anyone affects only the spirit of that person. That person dies spiritually. The actual sin itself may bring about some physical or mental result but that is all rather beside the point with respect to one's standing before God.

Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

You said:
It is only when we, like Adam,

No, that's not what Rom 5 is saying, nor Rom 11:30.

Also God did impute human sin to Christ; otherwise he would have been sinning himself. : )

The whole idea of imputation is that that individual had not committed the sin involved; it came from elsewhere, from Adam. The other individuals get treated 'as if' they were Adam, the counterpart of justification, where we are treated as if righteous.

You are clearly trying to treat both as actually-performed things, which has a certain logic to it up to a point. But condemnation/justification operate another way. So Luther called it the 'alien' righteousness, about credit v debt.

 

[Mr GLee]

The rhinoceros does according to instincts. While it is natural for the human mother to care for her child, that is not instinct. You really should learn the difference. Without knowing the difference, you are much confused.

And that of course includes you even now.

Rhinoceros the supernatural let there be and it was good kind Same supernatural design with human mothers.

Yes even now all have sinned and continue to fall short of the "Let there be" God

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;