Foreknowledge

[Carbon]

Re:

1. God predestined to salvation those who He foreknew would respond to His offer of grace​

2. God set His heart upon (ie. foreknew) certain individuals, these He predestined to be saved.God predestined to salvation those who He foreknew would respond to His offer of grace​

Both '1' and '2' sound correct to me as stated, though I selected '2' as I assumed a 'free will' inference was intended in #1 though it is not stated directly.​

All those that God predestines respond to His offer [because God causes them to respond].​

Hello fastfredy. Welcome to the forum.

The only reason anyone would respond to the Call is through regeneration. And willingly of course.

 

[fastfredy0]

The only reason anyone would respond to the Call is through regeneration. And willingly of course.

Agreed ... and the first option would not exclude 'regeneration' as a prerequisite. Everyone responses to God salvific grace if they have been "predestined" / "regenerated". Thus, technically, the first 2 answers are correct IMO.

 

[Carbon]

Agreed ... and the first option would not exclude 'regeneration' as a prerequisite. Everyone responses to God salvific grace if they have been "predestined" / "regenerated". Thus, technically, the first 2 answers are correct IMO.

But those two answers rely on man, not God for salvation.

IMO it kinda cheapens God's power. He had to see if someone would respond to His offer of grace, before He acts?

No one would respond, scripture teaches man cannot. God must do the work of regeneration before man could respond in a positive way, willingly.

But thanks for sharing your understanding.

 

[fastfredy0]

Re: Option 1:

God predestined to salvation those who He foreknew would respond to His offer of grace​

But those two answers rely on man, not God for salvation.

There is nothing in the above statement (option 1) saying what the cause of a man's response was. Thus, option 1 in regard to CAUSE is ambiguous.

Option 1 could mean, for all I know ... "God predestined to salvation those who He foreknew would respond to His offer of grace" [because God caused them to respond and thus our response would not rely on ourselves].

... probably what the questionnaire meant to say in option one was that our response came independent of God causal affect... but Option 1 was not specific.

 

[Carbon]

Re: Option 1:

God predestined to salvation those who He foreknew would respond to His offer of grace​

There is nothing in the above statement (option 1) saying what the cause of a man's response was. Thus, option 1 in regard to CAUSE is ambiguous.

Why do you suppose God would predestine to salvation those who He already knew would respond? Because He wanted a part in it?

 

[Selah7]

Ephesians 1 says that it was according to the good pleasure of his will. Do you believe God is random, or that God has a mind of His own, and can do whatever He pleases? He created the world, so He can do whatever He desires within it. He decided to choose some of His creation to be adopted as children through Christ, and once again, according to the good pleasure of His will. (I know, that is a more complicated way of saying He felt like it.) I have one simple request of you. If you decide to go calling God random, let me know so I can verify my distance to your approximate location...I don't want to take any chances.

When did I call God random? Actually, He’s the opposite of random. Read my post again.

 

[Selah7]

They are the elect because they were chosen for salvation before the foundation of the world.

Not according to scripture. They were chosen by God as the bride of Christ, vessels of mercy by God's pleasure to do so and according to the kind intention of His will.

Oh yes, God knew them. He also knew they would be, by nature, children of wrath. But it's not up to man, it's up to God.

Romans 9:11 Speaking about the twins, Jacob and Esau: though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls

They were chosen for God's good pleasure and given to Christ as His bride.

You’re actually agreeing with much of what I posted.

 

[Carbon]

Those two options are not reflective of Biblical grace (unmerited favor) but are merit based.

That's what I see also.

 

[Eleanor]

No, I’m not. I understand the meaning of both words.

Then on what basis do you say his action is random?

 

[fastfredy0]

Why do you suppose God would predestine to salvation those who He already knew would respond?

God determines ALL THINGS. God knows you (Carbon) would respond because He determined before the foundation of the earth that you would respond to His efficacious call. He chose you in eternity past, God had you hear the words leading to faith (Faith cometh by hearing) and then God regenerated you causing you to believe and repent and be justified.
You are saved by your faith that God caused you to have. You are saved by your response that God caused you to have. John 6:29 "This is the work of God that you believe". Faith is a work that God perfoms causing you to believe/respond. God does not have faith in anything for He determines all things; you are not saved by God's faith, you are saved by your faith.

Because He wanted a part in it?

Everything that happens is because "God wanted a part in it". God determines all things and therefore is "a part of it".

 

[Carbon]

Re: Option 1:

God predestined to salvation those who He foreknew would respond to His offer of grace​

There is nothing in the above statement (option 1) saying what the cause of a man's response was. Thus, option 1 in regard to CAUSE is ambiguous.

Option 1 could mean, for all I know ... "God predestined to salvation those who He foreknew would respond to His offer of grace" [because God caused them to respond and thus our response would not rely on ourselves].

... probably what the questionnaire meant to say in option one was that our response came independent of God causal affect... but Option 1 was not specific.

It's also true that God foresees faith, as He foresees all that comes to pass. So the question would then simply be, where does this faith that God foresees proceed from?

Wouldnt you say that the faith God sees is the faith He Himself created?

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘Youmust be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” John 3:3-8.

 

[Selah7]

Then on what basis do you say his action is random?

I never said that. I said the opposite of that.

 

[fastfredy0]

Those two options are not reflective of Biblical grace (unmerited favor) but are merit based.

I think one of us has a problem with semantics.

The first option says nothing about man's merit. It simply says "man must respond" to God's offer of grace. There is nothing in option 1 that says man MERITED anything. Just because someone responds to something doesn't mean he merited it (though that is often the case). In the case of salvation God causes one to respond and thus God is the one that merits (gets all the credit) for ones salvation.

It is NOT POSSIBLE to be saved without responding to the gospel. The response of ALL saved people is faith and repentance. The cause of our response is God and not man's will. (John 1:12-13)

 

[Carbon]

God determines ALL THINGS. God knows you (Carbon) would respond because He determined before the foundation of the earth that you would respond to His efficacious call.

fastfredy, God knew you would respond because His grace is irresistible. Once you were regenerated,it was irresistible.

He chose you in eternity past,

I agree. He chose all His elect in eternity past.

God had you hear the words leading to faith (Faith cometh by hearing) and then God regenerated you causing you to believe and repent and be justified.

Well, I am not so sure you can insist on that order, but, okay.

You are saved by your faith that God caused you to have.

Caused me to have? How so?

I believe it is in the new creation, the new heart, which possesses faith. But this happens through regeneration.

You are saved by your response that God caused you to have.

No, my response is proof God did the work.

John 6:29 "This is the work of God that you believe".

Yes, read that again.

Faith is a work that God perfoms causing you to believe/respond. God does not have faith in anything for He determines all things; you are not saved by God's faith, you are saved by your faith.

The new man in Christ possesses faith, it's a gift.

Everything that happens is because "God wanted a part in it". God determines all things and therefore is "a part of it".

 

[Eleanor]

It's also true that God foresees faith, as He foresees all that comes to pass. So the question would then simply be, where does this faith that God foresees proceed from?

Wouldnt you say that the faith God sees is the faith He Himself created?

Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘Youmust be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” John 3:3-8.

Or does God, according to his foreknowledge of his decree before the foundations of the world to elect and predestine Jane, thousands of years later call, justify and glorify Jane?

 

[David1701]

See? Again we meet with the same disagreement. You think the Elect were just randomly chosen?

I believe what the Bible says. Why don't you?

 

[Carbon]

I think one of us has a problem with semantics.

The first option says nothing about man's merit. It simply says "man must respond" to God's offer of grace. There is nothing in option 1 that says man MERITED anything.

Well if God saw he would respond therefore God chose him. That's merit.

 

[Carbon]

Or does God, according to his foreknowlege of his decree before the foundations of the world to elect Jane, thousands of years later elects, calls justifies and glorifies Jane?

Well yes, He does call Jane at her appointed time. He declares her just once she believes. Which is a gift through regeneration. The glorify part comes once Jane dies and goes home with the Lord. As He promised.

 

[Selah7]

I believe what the Bible says. Why don't you?

getting personal? still doing that? Come on, David.

Think about it. What would have been that knowledge about those chosen individuals that precipitated God to predestinate them, consequently call them, justify them and finally glorify them?

 

[Carbon]

Or does God, according to his foreknowlege of his decree before the foundations of the world to elect and predestine Jane, thousands of years later call, justify and glorifyJane?

Are you a Lutheran?
Just curious. Lutherans are awesome.