FATE OF THE UNREACHED

[JIM]

Prove it.

Prove it op-relevantly and prove it op-relevantly because it is NOT okay for you to jump into any thread you like and hijack it for your own purposes, just so you can ignore the topic everyone else is discussing so you can impose your soteriology on the entire thread.

Please also make a conscious and deliberate attempt to post content relevant to the point of inquiry or comment specified in an opening post. For example, not every post is about end times. Not every thread on soteriology is about all of salvation. Do not hijack others' threads for your own purpose or agenda.​

Which is another reason why I recommended you read the op and reply to the op, according to the op.

I have known and read Buff for many years now. I know pretty well his positions on such things.

I don't know the fate of the unreached. I don't think that the Bible is clear on it. I have my own view on it, but that is simply my own view. I think there may be a distinction between one having heard and rejected the word about God and not having heard about God.

Does Romans 2:12 indicate punishment for those who have sinned without the law and will perish without the law? Or does it mean that such a one will simply be extinguished? What is the difference between perish without the law and judged by the law?

How is that correlated with Romans 2:14-15? I really do not know.

 

[JIM]

Prove it.

Prove it is not.

 

[Josheb]

I have known and read Buff for many years now. I know pretty well his positions on such things.

I don't know the fate of the unreached. I don't think that the Bible is clear on it. I have my own view on it, but that is simply my own view. I think there may be a distinction between one having heard and rejected the word about God and not having heard about God.

Does Romans 2:12 indicate punishment for those who have sinned without the law and will perish without the law? Or does it mean that such a one will simply be extinguished? What is the difference between perish without the law and judged by the law?

How is that correlated with Romans 2:14-15? I really do not know.

Prove it is not.

History with Buff is irrelevant. Not knowing the fate of the unreached is an agreement that you've not acknowledged in the entire thread. Romans 2:12-15 does not define the entirety of scripture. Refusing to prove your own claim is avoidant and the attempt to shift the onus on to me is fallacious, especially since you started this. Lastly, I have proved faith is a gift from God. You just disagree, and the request for me to prove something already proven is lame.

....and sad.

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Is The Sinner Like A Corpse?​

To look at this topic from another angle or two, some of my Calvinist brothers claim that the sinner is like a corpse. He can do nothing. If he is of the elect, God works in him “to will and to do.” In the light of scripture, one can accept the influence of the Spirit in conversion and still conclude that a person is free to accept or reject the Gospel, to believe or disbelieve it. Remove human responsibility from the equation and you have a Bible that makes no sense. If when Jesus said, "He who has ears to hear let him hear," they were not free to hear (respond), He would be talking nonsense. He was amazed at the disbelief of some because He well knew they could have and should have believed (Mark 6:6).

Then there's the doctrinal persuasion of “total hereditary depravity” that some advocate. In relation to this, let's refer to the prodigal son who finally returned to his senses and returned home. He was in a swine pen far from his father and far from home—lost, which is worse than death. At this point in the story Jesus pays a compliment to the human race in saying that the prodigal "came to himself." That indicates that Jesus did not believe in total hereditary depravity, with apologies to my Calvinist brothers. Jesus believed the wayward lad in the pig pen had enough good left in him that he could do something about his predicament. He could have a change of heart, turn his life around, and return home. This is what he did when "he came to himself.”​

Clarifying Additional Sentiments​

Any competent person upon the face of God’s footstool may seek Him, find Him, and choose Him. “To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, he will give eternal life” (Rom. 2:7). As verse 9 reveals, Paul is talking about “every human being.” If God enables a man to seek Him, He also gives him the ability to choose Him! Paul, in referring to the entire human family, writes, “God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each of us” (Acts 17:27).

But how may a man—any man—seek God and find Him if he is void of free will and the ability to choose? So, who is accessible and who does the seeking? God, of course, makes Himself available to every man, everywhere, after which some men choose to accept Him while others choose to reject Him. Those who accept Him are His elect.

The scriptures above demonstrate rather strongly that God has not constrained a segment of the population to be saved and arbitrarily by-passed all others. They establish the truth that anyone and everyone may choose to accept God or reject Him. Paul’s words—as well as Jesus’—forever dispels the main thrusts of total hereditary depravity. There is absolutely no way to turn these facts around in an effort to give them a different meaning. Let’s put it like this:

The receptive heart will seek God and find Him. The non-receptive heart will not seek Him. He will remain dead in his sins. But how does a man achieve a receptive heart? Who gave it to him? How did he come by it?” Each person has been granted the ability to develop either a receptive heart or a non-receptive heart. In other words, God enables us to be receptive or non-receptive. The decision is ours. For if God forces a receptive heart upon those whom he foreknew, He has also forced a non-receptive heart upon those he did not foreknow. This translates into the truth that our God has compelled a segment of the population to be saved and the remainder to be lost. This bit of untruth clashes with heaven’s testimony.

Some of my Calvinists brothers assert, “Man may choose, but he always chooses to disobey God, because he is so totally depraved.” This runs 100% counter to what Jesus declares. “If anyone chooses to do God’s will...” (John 7:17). The two statements cannot, under any circumstances, be reconciled. Either Jesus is wrong, or my Calvinist brothers are wrong. I’ll go with Jesus!​

 

[makesends]

Is The Sinner Like A Corpse?​

To look at this topic from another angle or two, some of my Calvinist brothers claim that the sinner is like a corpse. He can do nothing. If he is of the elect, God works in him “to will and to do.” In the light of scripture, one can accept the influence of the Spirit in conversion and still conclude that a person is free to accept or reject the Gospel, to believe or disbelieve it. Remove human responsibility from the equation and you have a Bible that makes no sense. If when Jesus said, "He who has ears to hear let him hear," they were not free to hear (respond), He would be talking nonsense. He was amazed at the disbelief of some because He well knew they could have and should have believed (Mark 6:6).

Then there's the doctrinal persuasion of “total hereditary depravity” that some advocate. In relation to this, let's refer to the prodigal son who finally returned to his senses and returned home. He was in a swine pen far from his father and far from home—lost, which is worse than death. At this point in the story Jesus pays a compliment to the human race in saying that the prodigal "came to himself." That indicates that Jesus did not believe in total hereditary depravity, with apologies to my Calvinist brothers. Jesus believed the wayward lad in the pig pen had enough good left in him that he could do something about his predicament. He could have a change of heart, turn his life around, and return home. This is what he did when "he came to himself.”​

Clarifying Additional Sentiments​

Any competent person upon the face of God’s footstool may seek Him, find Him, and choose Him. “To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, he will give eternal life” (Rom. 2:7). As verse 9 reveals, Paul is talking about “every human being.” If God enables a man to seek Him, He also gives him the ability to choose Him! Paul, in referring to the entire human family, writes, “God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each of us” (Acts 17:27).

But how may a man—any man—seek God and find Him if he is void of free will and the ability to choose? So, who is accessible and who does the seeking? God, of course, makes Himself available to every man, everywhere, after which some men choose to accept Him while others choose to reject Him. Those who accept Him are His elect.

The scriptures above demonstrate rather strongly that God has not constrained a segment of the population to be saved and arbitrarily by-passed all others. They establish the truth that anyone and everyone may choose to accept God or reject Him. Paul’s words—as well as Jesus’—forever dispels the main thrusts of total hereditary depravity. There is absolutely no way to turn these facts around in an effort to give them a different meaning. Let’s put it like this:

The receptive heart will seek God and find Him. The non-receptive heart will not seek Him. He will remain dead in his sins. But how does a man achieve a receptive heart? Who gave it to him? How did he come by it?” Each person has been granted the ability to develop either a receptive heart or a non-receptive heart. In other words, God enables us to be receptive or non-receptive. The decision is ours. For if God forces a receptive heart upon those whom he foreknew, He has also forced a non-receptive heart upon those he did not foreknow. This translates into the truth that our God has compelled a segment of the population to be saved and the remainder to be lost. This bit of untruth clashes with heaven’s testimony.

Some of my Calvinists brothers assert, “Man may choose, but he always chooses to disobey God, because he is so totally depraved.” This runs 100% counter to what Jesus declares. “If anyone chooses to do God’s will...” (John 7:17). The two statements cannot, under any circumstances, be reconciled. Either Jesus is wrong, or my Calvinist brothers are wrong. I’ll go with Jesus!​

For the sake of argument, let's say you are right. What has that post to do with the OP? What is the point you are trying to make, as relates to the OP?

 

[JIM]

I have proved faith is a gift from God.

I am quite sure you think you have done that.

But Romans 10 rebuts such thinking. For if faith is a gift from God, then the lack of faith must be God's not giving that gift. Romans 10 rejects such thinking.

 

[Mr GLee]

History with Buff is irrelevant. Not knowing the fate of the unreached is an agreement that you've not acknowledged in the entire thread. Romans 2:12-15 does not define the entirety of scripture. Refusing to prove your own claim is avoidant and the attempt to shift the onus on to me is fallacious, especially since you started this. Lastly, I have proved faith is a gift from God. You just disagree, and the request for me to prove something already proven is lame.

....and sad.

Amen Thanks well said.

I would offer..

The gift is the law of faith law or liberty. The unseen interpreting power of Christ in us. . a labor of His love ) . Apposing the letter of the law death.

Christ laboring faithfully prophesying . "Let there be" . and . ."it was very good" al together as one work .(#1) Let there be . . . . (#2) behold .

Called a work of faith or a labor of love Faith as power. . trusting believing something will happen it .It is a work that Emanuel works with us.

Satan would make it about human faith dying leading to death .

He calls believers those of little faith (power) . He gives us a remnant of his power of faithfulness. .


Peter when loving commanded to do a work he knew he had not strength of his own and said Father increase the power of your faithfulness

.Yoked with the faithfulness of Christ Peter's labor of love was lighter with a living hope beyond the grave .

Faith is a work . With the exception of a few places no faith.

Whenever the word faith or faithful is writen it could be bolded in Red . a different kind of red addition . Red through out the bible denote the power of our faithful savior

A work of faith in every day life .

My wife faithfully works to write a list of things needed and works to sent me her obedient apostle(sent one) out to the supermarket on a mission, not adding or subtracting . When I return Home the end of faith I receive the reward of a apostle .Two home made peanut butter cookies and a cold glass of yes dear milk

We do not replace his belief system of faith the power to understand, the unseen things of Christ . with ours dead. faith towards Him not his working in us

James calls in blasphemy . Dying human form claiming to be higher authority than sola scriptura . God is not a man . A wile of the evil one

James 2:!1 King James Version2 My brethren, have not the faith (power) of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. (Dead faith no power )

James 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?


James2:17-26 Even so faith,(let there be) if it hath not works, (it was good) is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, (yoked with Christ) and I have works: shew me thy faith (labor of love) without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought(worked) with his works, and by works was faith (Christ's understanding ) made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it (power) was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, (Christ in her) when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith (labor of love) without works is dead also.

 

[Mr GLee]

In the light of scripture, one can accept the influence of the Spirit in conversion and still conclude that a person is free to accept or reject the Gospel, to believe or disbelieve it

One miraculously can acknowledge the living word is working in them with them . without him dying mankind has no power. . . . . faithless

The fool has said there is not God in their heart .

Believer as sinners do foolish things .like some of the Nicolaitans who left their first love "hearing God through his writen word" .They were trusting in the interptation of Nicodenmus.

Christ lovingly he called them back and do the first works . . believe God not Nicodenmus .not losing one

Galatians 3 King James Version O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

If Christ has begun the god teaching work is us he promises he will until we take our last breath .All pass the test of faith. . Christ in us

Philippians 1:6 King James Version Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

 

[Arial]

Salvation is the gift. In Ephesians 2:8, the meaning of "charis" has the sense of God's graciousness more so than as a gift. It is used is the sense of the nature of God. It is one of His attributes. To be saved by grace is in contrast the false notion of being saved by law. It is a theme displayed throughout the NT. It is at the heart of all of Paul's writings. The "through faith" is the means whereby one gains access to that particular aspect of God's grace.

Even if a person were to be saved by law keeping, it would be grace. I don't know where you get the idea that God ever owes us anything or for any reason. The contrast is not between grace and works. It is between works and faith. You have actually annulled all grace and replaced it with salvation by works when you say the faith necessary for salvation is not a gift from God, but something we produce and God then rewards.

And grace is not an attribute of God as you say. It is something he freely chooses to extend towards the undeserving. All I can say is, that was quite a dance you performed and it appears fully ad lib for the moment.

 

[Josheb]

Is The Sinner Like A Corpse?​

In relationship to God and the way he, the sinner, was originally made, yes the sinner is a corpse.

He can no longer stand before God in good relationship, whereas prior to Genesis 3:6-7 God walked in the garden with the good, unashamed, and sinless Adam and Eve. Both were cast out of the garden and prohibited from returning. They died that way. Adam's failures in faith and faithfulness caused an ontological (not just a teleological) change.


And, if it hasn't already been done, Post 164 should be posted as a separate op so as not to obfuscate this op's specified subject, the fate of the unreached. Adam and Eve were not unreached.

 

[Mr GLee]

I am quite sure you think you have done that.

But Romans 10 rebuts such thinking. For if faith is a gift from God, then the lack of faith must be God's not giving that gift. Romans 10 rejects such thinking.

Lack of faith is not doubt.(limbo)

I would offer doubt is not the opposite of faith . . .no faith is

Satan the accuser of the brethren cast doubts day and night 24/7 . Did God say?

 

[Josheb]

Any competent person upon the face of God’s footstool may seek Him, find Him, and choose Him.​

Sin makes a person incompetent.

And scripture plainly states no one seeks God.

Psalm 14:1-3
The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; there is no one who does good. The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.

Psalm 53:1-3
The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God," They are corrupt, and have committed abominable injustice; there is no one who does good. God has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men to see if there is anyone who understands, who seeks after God. Every one of them has turned aside; together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one.

Romans 3:9-18 ESV
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Even when humans do attempt to seek God they do so with sinful motive and sinfully fleshly means (such as the tower of Babel).


Therefore, premise of "any competent person" is a presuppositional error on the part of synergism and volitionalism. It is assumed without scriptural justification that sinners remain competent for the purpose of seeking God in order to solve their problem of sinfulness. Notice Post 16 assumes competency; it does not prove competency. It doesn't spend the slightest bit of time or effort providing a scriptural basis for the claim of the sinner's competency.

There is a verse that curiously speaks of competency. While attempting to address (and stop) the bickering and divisions among the saints in the Church at Corinth Paul wrote,

1 Corinthians 6:2
Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? If the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts?

1 Corinthians 6:2 KJV
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

1 Corinthians 6:2 ESV
Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases?

This was written to the saints, about the saints! If those bickering and divided-from-one-another saints were incompetent to judge, then what hope is there for the sinner who is divided by his/her sin from seeking God? How does the sinner who can be justified to stand before only by the blood of Christ and faith thereof claim any competency to seek God..... especially when scripture makes it clear no one actually seeks God? Post 164 claims competency to seek God is a thing, but scripture states none seek Him and there is no precedent of anyone seeking God without God working in that individual for that purpose (they seek God because God is working in them to do so).


Genesis 4:26-5:2
To Seth, to him also a son was born; and he called his name Enosh. Then men began to call upon the name of the LORD. This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. He created them male and female, and He blessed them and named them Man in the day when they were created.
And then the scriptures proceed to list those of God's people that were used by God to further His purpose. The list is not exhaustive. It does not include the thousands of people that existed by the time killed everyone (except for eight) in the flood, wiping the earth nearly clean of iniquity. The lineage of Gen 5 ends with Noah...
Genesis 5:28-30
Lamech lived one hundred and eighty-two years, and became the father of a son. Now he called his name Noah, saying, "This one will give us rest from our work and from the toil of our hands arising from the ground which the LORD has cursed." Then Lamech lived five hundred and ninety-five years after he became the father of Noah, and he had other sons and daughters.

The New Testament reveals there was much more going on in the flood then merely killing thousands oof sinners.

1 Peter 3:18-22
For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that he might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; in which also he went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you — not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience —through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

But Noah and Ham (and the other six) were dead in sin and it did not take long for that sinfulness to manifest itself. Noah grew a vineyard and got drunk at the first harvest, so intoxicated he passed out and passed out so severely his son could sodomize him uninterrupted while Noah's other sons turned their backs and did nothing.

That is the competency of the sinner!

Genesis 9:20-25
Then Noah began farming and planted a vineyard. He drank of the wine and became drunk and uncovered himself inside his tent. Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside. But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it upon both their shoulders and walked backward and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were turned away, so that they did not see their father's nakedness. When Noah awoke from his wine, he knew what his youngest son had done to him. So he said, "Cursed be Canaan; A servant of servants He shall be to his brothers."

Given a clean slate, and a new covenant, humanity showed its incompetency.





The presupposition of competency is incorrect, and everything built upon it is likewise, incorrect.

 

[makesends]

I am quite sure you think you have done that.

But Romans 10 rebuts such thinking. For if faith is a gift from God, then the lack of faith must be God's not giving that gift. Romans 10 rejects such thinking.

Where does Romans 10 reject such thinking?

But that is lousy logic, as though it is God's fault for not providing faith. Are you one of those who claims God is absolutely fair and owes everyone an equal chance for accepting him? Lack of faith is not 'God's not giving that gift', though it is true enough that to those who have not believed, God has not had that particular mercy that he has shown the regenerated. Lack of faith is endemic to all of us, until God gives it —it is our fallen nature, irrespective of God's gift. John 3:18 says that those that have not believed are ALREADY condemned.

 

[Mr GLee]

Given a clean slate, and a new covenant, humanity showed its incompetency.

Reminded me of the foundation of the priesthood of mankind. Moses the apostle sent by the Father on Mount Sinai.

Two clean slates hewn by the hand of God written by the finger of God on both sides (no room for oral traditions) . Moses coming down the pagan tradition of men moved the Spirit to destroy the first set and this time He moved Moses to hewn out the writing material then again to represent the new testament covenant Christ wrote all the same words with his finger

 

[Josheb]

Then there's the doctrinal persuasion of “total hereditary depravity” that some advocate. In relation to this, let's refer to the prodigal son who finally returned to his senses and returned home. He was in a swine pen far from his father and far from home—lost, which is worse than death. At this point in the story Jesus pays a compliment to the human race in saying that the prodigal "came to himself." That indicates that Jesus did not believe in total hereditary depravity, with apologies to my Calvinist brothers. Jesus believed the wayward lad in the pig pen had enough good left in him that he could do something about his predicament. He could have a change of heart, turn his life around, and return home. This is what he did when "he came to himself.”​

First of all, the prodigal son is not said to have received salvation. Instead, he has lost everything. His part of the story is very much like the rich man in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

Luke 16:25
"But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.'"

The "prodigal son" parable ends with the following...

Luke 15:31-32
"And he said to him, 'Son, you have always been with me, and all that is mine is yours. 'But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live and was lost and has been found.'"

Was the brother literally dead? No. How then could the father call the son who had run off with a third of the family's wealth to squander it in hedonist self-pleasure be considered dead? Is this hyperbole? Allegory? Symbolism? All of the above? The fact is no one in the parable is saved from sin! Every single person in the parable is shown to be a sinner, including the father who gave away a portion of his wealth to a son who'd insulted him, a son the father knew was not respectful of his father, himself, or the gift he'd be given. That boy did not return to his family for salvation from his sin. He came back to feed his flesh. When scripture states, "he came to himself," that's code. The wayward son came to his senses..... but his senses led him back to his family where his belly could be filled, not to God. When the text states, "he came to himself," that stands in stark juxtaposition to the fact it should read, "he came to God." Sinners come to themselves; they do not seek God.

Philippians 3:17-21
Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us. For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things. For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

Luke 15:15-17
So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. And he would have gladly filled his stomach with the pods that the swine were eating, and no one was giving anything to him. But when he came to his senses, he said, "How many of my father's hired men have more than enough bread, but I am dying here with hunger!"

Matthew 7:11
If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!

That boy was not looking to or seeking God. He sought to be a slave to his earthly father, who was himself a sinner, and he sought that service solely to feed his flesh. Every Jew in the audience that day would have understood the multiple ways every single person in that parable was disobedient to the Law and laws of God and the implication Jesus was saying he was better than ALL three of those men in the parable. The parable was indicting every single person in that audience because they'd accused Jesus of being a sinner! Jesus addresses their accusation with several parables and in the midst of those parables scripture states,

Luke 16:14-15
Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, were listening to all these things and were scoffing at him. And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God.

In other words, having heard the parable of the prodigal family, they scoffed at Jesus(!) and Jesus they were justifying themselves in a manner detestable to God.


Romans 3:9-18 ESV
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”


Jesus did NOT pay a compliment to the human race. That statement is scripture-twisting nonsense. The appeal to the parable of the prodigal son is a very, very misguided effort.

 

[Mr GLee]

First of all, the prodigal son is not said to have received salvation. Instead, he has lost everything. His part of the story is very much like the rich man in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

Luke 16:25
"But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.'"

The "prodigal son" parable ends with the following...

Luke 15:31-32
"And he said to him, 'Son, you have always been with me, and all that is mine is yours. 'But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live and was lost and has been found.'"

Was the brother literally dead? No. How then could the father call the son who had run off with a third of the family's wealth to squander it in hedonist self-pleasure be considered dead? Is this hyperbole? Allegory? Symbolism? All of the above? The fact is no one in the parable is saved from sin! Every single person in the parable is shown to be a sinner, including the father who gave away a portion of his wealth to a son who'd insulted him, a son the father knew was not respectful of his father, himself, or the gift he'd be given. That boy did not return to his family for salvation from his sin. He came back to feed his flesh. When scripture states, "he came to himself," that's code. The wayward son came to his senses..... but his senses led him back to his family where his belly could be filled, not to God. When the text states, "he came to himself," that stands in stark juxtaposition to the fact it should read, "he came to God." Sinners come to themselves; they do not seek God.

Romans 3:9-18 ESV
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Jesus did NOT pay a compliment to the human race. That statement is scripture-twisting nonsense.





The appeal to the parable of the prodigal son is a very, very misguided effort.

I would offer another way .

A series of parables beginning in 15 ending16 with the parable no one can serve two good teachers master coming from one lord. Both the Bible and the oral traditons of dying mankind

I would call it the parable of the Waiting Father. He saw from a way off beyond what the eyes see (faith) Adam retuning as the Son of man Jesus .excited he ran

Luke 15:20 And he arose, (resurrected) and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.

 

[makesends]

Jesus did NOT pay a compliment to the human race.

Amen that! The whole notion is repugnant, not only in assuming that the human race has something of itself to be complemented, but, worse, in juxtaposing some virtue endemic to the human race with God's purposes in having created them. This is everything BUT grace.

 

[Josheb]

Amen Thanks well said.

I would offer..

The gift is the law of faith law or liberty. The unseen interpreting power of Christ in us. . a labor of His love ) . Apposing the letter of the law death.

Christ laboring faithfully prophesying . "Let there be" . and . ."it was very good" al together as one work .(#1) Let there be . . . . (#2) behold .

Called a work of faith or a labor of love Faith as power. . trusting believing something will happen it .It is a work that Emanuel works with us.

Satan would make it about human faith dying leading to death .

He calls believers those of little faith (power) . He gives us a remnant of his power of faithfulness. .


Peter when loving commanded to do a work he knew he had not strength of his own and said Father increase the power of your faithfulness

.Yoked with the faithfulness of Christ Peter's labor of love was lighter with a living hope beyond the grave .

Faith is a work . With the exception of a few places no faith.

Whenever the word faith or faithful is writen it could be bolded in Red . a different kind of red addition . Red through out the bible denote the power of our faithful savior

A work of faith in every day life .

My wife faithfully works to write a list of things needed and works to sent me her obedient apostle(sent one) out to the supermarket on a mission, not adding or subtracting . When I return Home the end of faith I receive the reward of a apostle .Two home made peanut butter cookies and a cold glass of yes dear milk

We do not replace his belief system of faith the power to understand, the unseen things of Christ . with ours dead. faith towards Him not his working in us

James calls in blasphemy . Dying human form claiming to be higher authority than sola scriptura . God is not a man . A wile of the evil one

James 2:!1 King James Version2 My brethren, have not the faith (power) of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. (Dead faith no power )

James 2:7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?


James2:17-26 Even so faith,(let there be) if it hath not works, (it was good) is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, (yoked with Christ) and I have works: shew me thy faith (labor of love) without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought(worked) with his works, and by works was faith (Christ's understanding ) made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it (power) was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, (Christ in her) when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith (labor of love) without works is dead also.

Bottom line it for me. How does that relate to the fate of the unreached? As far as I can see, everyone referenced in that post would be a reached person, not an unreached person.

 

[Josheb]

I would offer another way .

A series of parables beginning in 15 ending16 with the parable no one can serve two good teachers master coming from one lord.

Great observation. Make it apply to the claim any competent person can seek God.

 

[Josheb]

Amen that! The whole notion is repugnant...

LOL!

I wouldn't mind Jesus personally paying me a compliment . But then again, I believe and I'm redeemed, regenerate, sanctified and know where I'm headed (which cannot be said for anyone in the parable). The way that parable was handled, and its conclusion is the problem. Flawed premises lead to flawed conclusions and Post 164 has several (I addressed only two).