Decisional Regeneration vs. Divine Regeneration

[Carbon]

Oh right. I forgot. God had to learn who would choose Him and then because they were so good and wise, He elected them. I forgot. God chose us because we first chose Him.

Imagine that.

 

[Red Baker]

Recall also, the Jesus was the last Jewish prophet speaking to Israel.

Brother, that's not so, the apostles were sent to the circumcision, (Jews) while Paul and Barnabas to the Gentiles.

Galatians 2:7-9~"But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision."

 

[JIM]

Should God save everyone?

Who shouldn't God save?

 

[Red Baker]

I know that you would like to compare yourself to Peter, but that won't work.

Jim, all children of God has more of a connection with Peter, than any Catholic or EOC does. We all share our coming to Christ as the same power bringing both, a power outside of ourselves, or, any other man ability or persuasion etc. John 1:13

What Jesus revealed there was that Peter did indeed have a personal visit from God directly. It was indeed divine revelation and it was identified as such by Jesus.

Matthew 16:13-18~"When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jim, please consider: (1) Jesus asked all of his disciples the same question, and all would have received the same response Peter did, if they too had spoken up. (2) The question was who the Son of man? Peter gave the same answer every child of God would have given, if they had experience the same divine revelation from heaven. It is the fruit of our new nature/man, a nature we were not born with, unless we had the same experience as John the Baptist, and no doubt a few have, but I was not one of them, I was in my mid twenties when I first came to Christ, over fifty years ago! (3.) Here is the most important point, and please consider this main point. Jesus said to Peter: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Jim, do you hear what our Lord is saying? Let me add these words and I ask you to carefully consider them. "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Upon THIS ROCK, that is, upon divine revelation Jesus Christ is building his church! And the gates of hell/darkness shall not never prevail against it, or stop it, since the new birth is a birth by God's power and all who experience this will confess that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and this is the victory that will overcome the world, flesh and all evil spirits!

Jim, we all had better have that personal visit from heaven, or we are not one of God's children.

That God presents a person with the opportunity to believe rather than imposing an injunction to believe is the message of the Bible from beginning to end. But you reject it in spades and insist, wrongly, that the sovereignty of God demands determinism. The account of Adam and Eve defies your determinism . The account of Cain and Abel defies your determinism. The account of Job defies your determinism. The account of God's chosen Nation Israel and Jesus weeping over Jerusalem (Matt 23:37; Luke 10:41) defies your determinism. Monergism, i.e., determinism is false. Synergism does not make the believer the true reason why one is born again.

The report of the encounter of Thomas with the risen Jesus says it all:

John 20:28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." 30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

I want to come back and address this point separately so my post will not be that long.

 

[JIM]

That is because faith comes after regeneration, as a result of regeneration and Jesus is talking about the new birth, not faith. Could you deal with what I said in that post now?

There is nowhere in the whole of the NT that says that faith comes after regeneration, and it most certainly is not said in John 3.

 

[JIM]

Oh right. I forgot. God had to learn who would choose Him and then because they were so good and wise, He elected them. I forgot. God chose us because we first chose Him.

God had to learn....???

Your mockery fails miserably to reinforce your false ideas.

 

[JIM]

Why dosent He? Really Jim?

Yes, Carbon, Really. If God can regenerate a heart anytime, anywhere, with anyone, then why doesn't He?

Your answer seems to be that He simply doesn't want to; i.e., what He really wants is to leave most hearts unregenerated and thus eternally condemn most people to hell.

 

[JIM]

Jim, please consider: (1) Jesus asked all of his disciples the same question, and all would have received the same response Peter did, if they too had spoken up. (2) The question was who the Son of man? Peter gave the same answer every child of God would have given, if they had experience the same divine revelation from heaven. It is the fruit of our new nature/man, a nature we were not born with, unless we had the same experience as John the Baptist, and no doubt a few have, but I was not one of them, I was in my mid twenties when I first came to Christ, over fifty years ago! (3.) Here is the most important point, and please consider this main point. Jesus said to Peter: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Jim, do you hear what our Lord is saying? Let me add these words and I ask you to carefully consider them. "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Upon THIS ROCK, that is, upon divine revelation Jesus Christ is building his church! And the gates of hell/darkness shall not never prevail against it, or stop it, since the new birth is a birth by God's power and all who experience this will confess that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and this is the victory that will overcome the world, flesh and all evil spirits!

Jim, we all had better have that personal visit from heaven, or we are not one of God's children.

Red, the rock is not the divine revelation of anything; rather the rock is what was revealed in the divine revelation, namely that the rock is the fact and truth that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.

The only divine revelation that you need to know and understand that is God's written word, the Bible. That is sufficient. It tells you all you need to know about God, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

 

[Red Baker]

You have a small view of the Gospel, it seems to me.

Small? I have a proper understanding of the purpose of the gospel.

As we all know, God is not limited in what he can or cannot do. God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

1st Corinthians 1:21​

“For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.”


It is not that I have a small view of the gospel of God's grace, but I have a proper view of man by nature. The world by its foolish wisdom esteems God's gospel has foolishness, because they think it is below them to believe in something that their deceitful hearts tells them that that gospel is only for weak minded folks who need something to trust in, since they are not able to rise above their status in life, they truly, believe it give them a false hope of a better life, since they believe the only life is in this present world, so they give their heart, soul, and mind to the things of this present world.

Looking back at 1st Corinthians 1:21 Paul shows us the purpose of why God chose the foolishness of preaching to save (in a practical sense) those believe.

I love love the gospel now that God has saved me without all means, solely by His Spirit alone did he regenerate me, and in due time the gospel came as a source of information revealing to me why I believe and why others do not.

Romans 1:16,17~"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 1:16 is the twin scripture to 1st Corinthians 1:21 they are saying the exact same thing. Listen carefully: "for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" ~the gospel according to Paul, is the power of God only to those that believe, to all others it is foolishness! Paul took it a step farther and said: "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. The gospel can only be revealed from a person who has faith, to another person who has faith, impossible for this to be otherwise. \

So, it is not that I have a small view of the gospel, but I have the true understanding of it purpose, a big difference. The gospel is only given to be a source of information for God's elect so that they can hear, understand and learn to love the gospel.

As I said above, God is not limited on what he could have done to get the truth of the gospel to us~he very well could have created trees to send forth a message everyday throughout this world for our source of information, but he chose the foolishness of preaching to save (in a practical sense) his elect.

Don't tell me what the Gospel cannot do.

The gospel cannot regenerate sinners, it takes the power of God to first regenerate before a sinner, who is at enmity against God, can believe and humble himself as a little child~the same power that brought again the Lord Jesus from the dead MUST first resurrect a dead sinner to life, before the word of God will have any effect upon his soul. It speak of the depravity of sinners more than anything else.

 

[Red Baker]

Red, the rock is not the divine revelation of anything; rather the rock is what was revealed in the divine revelation, namely that the rock is the fact and truth that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.

With all due respect, you are guilty of using sleight of hands. I truly do not think you are purposely doing this, but, nevertheless you are.

Jim, impossible to separate the two. One must have a divine revelation from heaven concerning the truth of gospel ~ that the righteousness of God is revealed therein, and only those men and women who have been blessed of heaven understand, and have received the truth that Jesus Christ is indeed the Son of God sent to be a surety of God's elect.

Matthew 11:25-27~"At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him."

Jim, it is hard for you to kick against the pricks~you, my friend will lose this battle.

Acts 9:5​

“And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.”

 

[JIM]

With all due respect, you are guilty of using sleight of hands. I truly do not think you are purposely doing this, but, nevertheless you are.

Jim, impossible to separate the two. One must have a divine revelation from heaven concerning the truth of gospel ~ that the righteousness of God is revealed therein, and only those men and women who have been blessed of heaven understand, and have received the truth that Jesus Christ is indeed the Son of God sent to be a surety of God's elect.


Jim, it is hard for you to kick against the pricks~you, my friend will lose this battle.

Acts 9:5​

“And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.”

I am assuming here when you speak of receiving divine revelation from heaven you mean that God has spoken to you directly; that is, not through any other medium such as His written word.

I have rules that I live by. One of those rules, is that whenever anyone tells me that God has spoken directly to them, unless they can prove that has happened, I must assume they either do not know what they are talking about or they are lying. So far in all my years, no one has ever been able to prove to me or anyone else that they have received divine revelation from God directly.

 

[JIM]

If God had expected that any sinful man could obey perfectly there would not have been temporary covering as redemption moved forward. And if any could be perfectly righteous, we would all be on our own----no atonement that destroyed sin and death.

If anyone was perfectly righteous on his own, he wouldn't be sinful and he wouldn't need atonement. So I am not quite certain what you are trying to say.

 

[Arial]

If anyone was perfectly righteous on his own, he wouldn't be sinful and he wouldn't need atonement. So I am not quite certain what you are trying to say.

Is anyone, everyone?

 

[Arial]

There is nowhere in the whole of the NT that says that faith comes after regeneration, and it most certainly is not said in John 3.

Are you an Open Theist?

 

[JIM]

Is anyone, everyone?

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

 

[JIM]

Are you an Open Theist?

No, why would you ask?

 

[Arial]

No, why would you ask?

Just curious?

 

[Arial]

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

???

 

[JIM]

???

Do I really need to explain that verse to you?

 

[Alive]

I am assuming here when you speak of receiving divine revelation from heaven you mean that God has spoken to you directly; that is, not through any other medium such as His written word.

I have rules that I live by. One of those rules, is that whenever anyone tells me that God has spoken directly to them, unless they can prove that has happened, I must assume they either do not know what they are talking about or they are lying. So far in all my years, no one has ever been able to prove to me or anyone else that they have received divine revelation from God directly.

define divine revelation. please