Decisional Regeneration vs. Divine Regeneration

[CrowCross]

Who shouldn't God save?

Don't know. I do know what is written...
Romans 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! 15For He says to Moses:

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”f
16 So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

 

[Arial]

There is nowhere in the whole of the NT that says that faith comes after regeneration, and it most certainly is not said in John 3.

Like I said, John 3 isn't talking about faith, it is talking about being born again---regeneration. The reason this conversation goes nowhere but in a circle is due to a belief that man is basically good he just happens to also sin. It does not recognize the concept of the alienation of man from God or what is needed for reconciliation. What is needed in man before a reconciliation can even begin is a new birth. If that is not true, then man is perfectly capable of initiating the reconciliation. You have those dead in trespasses and sins, spiritually dead iow, doing what it is impossible for the spiritually dead to do----have faith. The new birth brings faith. Faith cannot bring the new birth. Only God can do that.

 

[Carbon]

So give me a reference where you think it says, or teaches that believing comes after being born again and perhaps we can talk about it.

I won't be too hard on you so, I'll give you an easy one.

John 3
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

 

[Carbon]

No, I am a Christian.

Pelagians consider themselves Christians.
But thanks for your answer, Jim.

 

[Carbon]

Don't know. I do know what is written...
Romans 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! 15For He says to Moses:

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”f
16 So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

Amen!

 

[JIM]

This was the topic that sparked the question. See how far off track you have taken the conversation by not actually addressing the content below. The topic being the OP title.

Sorry, I guess I didn't understand your point. I still don't. But then, for what it is worth, the OP title doesn't really make sense to me either. The term "Decisional Regeneration" is a new one for me. I have never come across that before.

 

[JIM]

Pelagians consider themselves Christians.
But thanks for your answer, Jim.

So do Calvinists.

 

[Carbon]

Sorry, I guess I didn't understand your point. I still don't. But then, for what it is worth, the OP title doesn't really make sense to me either. The term "Decisional Regeneration" is a new one for me. I have never come across that before.

Then maybe you should relax, take the time, listen, learn.....?

 

[Carbon]

So do Calvinists.

Yes, of course.

 

[JIM]

Don't know. I do know what is written...
Romans 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! 15For He says to Moses:

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”f
16 So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

Again not understanding much that Paul said in chapter 9.

 

[Alive]

So do Calvinists.

?????

 

[Carbon]

Again not understanding much that Paul said in chapter 9.

If you dont understand much of what Paul said, how do you come to a decision so easily?

 

[Carbon]

?????

He's just being sarcastic.

 

[Arial]

Sorry, I guess I didn't understand your point. I still don't. But then, for what it is worth, the OP title doesn't really make sense to me either. The term "Decisional Regeneration" is a new one for me. I have never come across that before.

And yet you responded as though you understood it perfectly. People express their thoughts and beliefs in their own individual way. It does not have to be a term you have heard of.Are you saying you still don't understand what I am saying below.

Not a single one of them was faithful, not even David, though David was called the apple of His eye. The difference was David's heart---same as it is with the believer of today. God can regenerate a heart anytime, anywhere, with anyone

 

[Alive]

Again not understanding much that Paul said in chapter 9.

Romans is one of the most logically laid out theology letters in the NT.
He starts by laying down a principle and then building upon it.
So, just like so many other things---if you don't start from the foundational truth---what you build will be shaky at best.

 

[Carbon]

And yet you responded as though you understood it perfectly. People express their thoughts and beliefs in their own individual way. It does not have to be a term you have heard of.Are you saying you still don't understand what I am saying below.

Right.

 

[Carbon]

Romans is one of the most logically laid out theology letters in the NT.
He starts by laying down a principle and then building upon it.
So, just like so many other things---if you don't start from the foundational truth---what you build will be shaky at best.

 

[JIM]

Like I said, John 3 isn't talking about faith, it is talking about being born again---regeneration. The reason this conversation goes nowhere but in a circle is due to a belief that man is basically good he just happens to also sin.

I don't know of anyone who believes that.

It does not recognize the concept of the alienation of man from God or what is needed for reconciliation.

I am not sure that you do.

What is needed in man before a reconciliation can even begin is a new birth.

The new birth is reconciliation; at least in the sense that it all happens at the same instant in time.

If that is not true, then man is perfectly capable of initiating the reconciliation. You have those dead in trespasses and sins, spiritually dead iow, doing what it is impossible for the spiritually dead to do----have faith.

The Bible doesn't say that. You might believe it, but it is not true.

The new birth brings faith. Faith cannot bring the new birth. Only God can do that.

Not true. Colossians 2:12-13 declares that " having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses".

Being dead in trespasses and being made alive is being born again. It says there that happened through faith. If it is through faith, then clearly faith preceded being born again.

 

[Arial]

@JIM

Here is one straight out of the OT that shows that God has always been the one who determines who believes and who does not, and that regeneration by Him is necessary.

Deut 29:2-4 And Moses said to all Israel "You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land, the great trials that your eyes saw, the signs, and those great wonders. But to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear."

What follows is a list of all the things they saw God do in the wilderness. In forty years, their clothes did not wear out, nor their sandals, he fed them and gave them water, he defeated their enemies at Heshbon and Bashan. And still they did not have faith in God. Why? Because God had not given them a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear.

 

[JIM]

Romans is one of the most logically laid out theology letters in the NT.
He starts by laying down a principle and then building upon it.
So, just like so many other things---if you don't start from the foundational truth---what you build will be shaky at best.

It would appear that you are speaking of your own self. The point that Paul is making in chapter 9 is that God used ethnic Israel and others to bring Jesus and salvation to the world. And in using them He was not obligated to save them. God is free to use the clay in any way He chooses whether He saves them or not; and that was clearly against what some of Paul's Jewish brothers, his kinsmen in the flesh thought was right.