Decisional Regeneration vs. Divine Regeneration

[JIM]

@JIM

Here is one straight out of the OT that shows that God has always been the one who determines who believes and who does not, and that regeneration by Him is necessary.

Deut 29:2-4 And Moses said to all Israel "You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land, the great trials that your eyes saw, the signs, and those great wonders. But to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear."

What follows is a list of all the things they saw God do in the wilderness. In forty years, their clothes did not wear out, nor their sandals, he fed them and gave them water, he defeated their enemies at Heshbon and Bashan. And still they did not have faith in God. Why? Because God had not given them a heart to understand or eyes to see or ears to hear.

And that you think is regeneration. OK. As Carbon has told me a couple of times. Thanks for your opinion.

 

[Alive]

I don't know of anyone who believes that.

I am not sure that you do.

The new birth is reconciliation; at least in the sense that it all happens at the same instant in time.

The Bible doesn't say that. You might believe it, but it is not true.

Not true. Colossians 2:12-13 declares that " having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses".

Being dead in trespasses and being made alive is being born again. It says there that happened through faith. If it is through faith, then clearly faith preceded being born again.

Perhaps this will be helpful. I think it is very simple. In a moment in time God 'gives' that special saving faith and in that same instant we are born from above and regenerated. In that instant in time, being joined with (into Christ) we die, we are raised in New Life and Ascended where our Life is now hidden with Christ in God.
All at once with no concatenations.
IMO--there is no need to complicate this.

 

[Alive]

For clarity: being born from above and regeneration is referring to the same thing/the same event. There is no scriptural reason to think otherwise, that I am aware of.

 

[Carbon]

For clarity: being born from above and regeneration is referring to the same thing/the same event. There is no scriptural reason to think otherwise, that I am aware of.

Amen

 

[JIM]

For clarity: being born from above and regeneration is referring to the same thing/the same event. There is no scriptural reason to think otherwise, that I am aware of.

Glad we agree on at least something.

Though it is too bad that we don't agree that it all happens by grace through faith.

 

[Arial]

I don't know of anyone who believes that.

Oh many, many people do. But if you do not believe that we are sinful beings because of Adam's sin and only become sinful beings when we sin, then it is also what you believe. It suggests that we are born capable of not sinning----which would be good---but we do sin and only then do we become alienated from God . It denies that even our good acts are as filthy rags before a holy God in our condition of alienation.

I am not sure that you do.

If you were able to hear what I say, there would be no question in your mind as to whether or not I understand man's alienation from God.

The new birth is reconciliation; at least in the sense that it all happens at the same instant in time.

Have I said otherwise? The issue is that you have said faith comes first and then the new birth.

The Bible doesn't say that. You might believe it, but it is not true.

It clearly says that. And you have been shown. In Eph 2 Paul tells of our condition before a holy God, and our inability to do a thing about it. It says first God must make us alive even while we are dead in our sins.

Not true. Colossians 2:12-13 declares that " having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses".

This does not say that faith is the cause of the new birth. Being made alive is the new birth, and faith is the manner in which we are united with him in this resurrection. The Holy Spirit, through the new birth applies the work of Jesus to us, and then and only then do we have faith in his person and work.

Being dead in trespasses and being made alive is being born again. It says there that happened through faith. If it is through faith, then clearly faith preceded being born again.

Born again came first. They often, but not always, come at the same time but remain distinct. Just as with the wind. Sometimes it is a storm, sometimes a gentle breeze that prepares us to hear the gospel and believe.

 

[CrowCross]

Again not understanding much that Paul said in chapter 9.

Paul was quoting from what God said to Moses in Exodus.

 

[Carbon]

And that you think is regeneration. OK. As Carbon has told me a couple of times. Thanks for your opinion.

Well, I do appreciate your opinion, Jim.

 

[Josheb]

Why God saves one and not another...I don't know. I do know God has compassion on whoever He wants to have compassion on.

If that comment about "compassion" is a reference from Romans 9 then we know that compassion is not dependent on how a sinner wills or walks (works). To the degree that salvation is predicated upon that same compassion (or mercy) then salvation is not based on the sinner's choices or conduct. As Paul worded it in Ephesians 2, salvation by grace through faith, "it is not of ourselves."

We don't cock our head and smile at God like a puppy dog...where God then says, OK, you're so cute I'll adopt you.

LOL! Amen

 

[CrowCross]

If that comment about "compassion" is a reference from Romans 9 then we know that compassion is not dependent on how a sinner wills or walks (works). To the degree that salvation is predicated upon that same compassion (or mercy) then salvation is not based on the sinner's choices or conduct. As Paul worded it in Ephesians 2, salvation by grace through faith, "it is not of ourselves."

People forget Paul was quoting what God said to Moses in the book of Exodus. Exo 33:19

God id the potter...we are the clay.

 

[Red Baker]

How about a still small voice?

I have never heard any voice but my own conscience talking with me, whom folks assigned to God speaking to them.

Hebrews 1:1,2~"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"

When I read the word of God in the NT especially so in the gospel, I hear the Son speaking to me.

1st Peter 1:8​

“Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:”

Brother, it is all through the written word of God, any man who said otherwise, is allowing his heart to deceive him, through pride.

I hear the Pentecostals boast all of the time how God speaks to them in vision, etc. It sounds spiritual to an untrained ear in the scriptures.

How about a still small voice?

If I hear God's voice, my bowel may turn loose~besides of filling me with pride. Neither will I tempt God to speak to me, his word is all I need to sustained me. We walk by faith, not by voices or feelings.

 

[Carbon]

I have never heard any voice but my own conscience talking with me, whom folks assigned to God speaking to them.



When I read the word of God in the NT especially so in the gospel, I hear the Son speaking to me.

1st Peter 1:8​

“Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:”

Brother, it is all through the written word of God, any man who said otherwise, is allowing his heart to deceive him, through pride.

I hear the Pentecostals boast all of the time how God speaks to them in vision, etc. It sounds spiritual to an untrained ear in the scriptures.


If I hear God's voice, my bowel may turn loose~besides of filling me with pride. Neither will I tempt God to speak to me, his word is all I need to sustained me. We walk by faith, not by voices or feelings.

Can't argue with that.

 

[ShepherdsPie]

Should God save everyone?

No, because not everyone was chosen. But then again, why weren’t they chosen?

 

[ShepherdsPie]

Who shouldn't God save?

Yes, Carbon, Really. If God can regenerate a heart anytime, anywhere, with anyone, then why doesn't He?

Your answer seems to be that He simply doesn't want to; i.e., what He really wants is to leave most hearts unregenerated and thus eternally condemn most people to hell.

Could it be that some people have no interest whatsoever in the things of God? And for this reason, God, in His foreknowledge of us all, did not choose (Elect) them before the foundation of the world? Surely, Almighty God is able to save whoever calls on Him. Sadly, not everyone wants to.

“Behold the LORD’s hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: but your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid His face from you, that He will not hear.” Isaiah 59:1-2

'Call to Me, and I will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know.' Jeremiah 33:3

 

[CrowCross]

f I hear God's voice, my bowel may turn loose~besides of filling me with pride.

If I heard Gods voice loud and clear I think my bowels would do something else.

 

[CrowCross]

No, because not everyone was chosen. But then again, why weren’t they chosen?

Everyone has already been chosen for damnation....Everyone. But from the damnation "pool" God reaches in and saves some. As to why God saves some??? I can only speculate. God has His purpose.

 

[ShepherdsPie]

Everyone has already been chosen for damnation....Everyone. But from the damnation "pool" God reaches in and saves some. As to why God saves some??? I can only speculate. God has His purpose.

View attachment 924 chosen for damnation? Might you have a scripture handy?

 

[Carbon]

View attachment 924 chosen for damnation? Might you have a scripture handy?

Yea. That sure is a funny way of saying it.

 

[Red Baker]

Could it be that some people have no interest whatsoever in the things of God? And for this reason, God, in His foreknowledge of us all, did not choose (Elect) them before the foundation of the world? Surely, Almighty God is able to save whoever calls on Him. Sadly, not everyone wants to.

Let us briefly consider the answer to your question based upon God's foreknowledge.

1st Peter 1:2​

“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

Yes we were elected based upon God's foreknowledge of knowing the end from the beginning, that cannot be debated. The question one must ask based upon the scriptures is this question: "What could have God known that caused him to elect some and past over a multitude of others?

1. We know it was not anything of good works on the sinners part. That's clearly ruled out in many places and proven by every single person that has ever lived, even among the most goldy folks, all had their weakness and sins. even in their most holy acts of serving God. We all, if honest can attest to that fact, sin is mixed with our most holy moment of serving God, even in our prayers to our own shame. We live in a body of SIN and death.

Romans 3:9​

“What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;”

I could expand this greatly to add so much support to this one point, but if honest, all must agree that man by nature is a very sinful person, so much so, that he is at enmity against the very God that created him, to a point he would even deny that there is even a God if God hardens his heart ~ by that statement, I mean if God leaves him totally to his deceitful heart, then the depth of sin man would go is almost unthinkable, and very gross, yett we know we all could be that man, apart from the grace of God.

2, So, what was in God's foreknowledge? Simply put, God knew that if he did not elect some and provide a surety for them, then none would have ever been saved from sin and condemnation, not one! Impossible. Consider Paul' words::

Romans 3:10-17~"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known:"

Psalms 14:2,3~"The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

Could it be that some people have no interest whatsoever in the things of God?

God said that none did based on what he foresaw after Adam's sin. So, he in mercy determined according to his own will, to provide salvation from sin and condemnation to some and while others he left them to their own sin and destruction, which btw they were very happy serving their own lust, and would not have it any other way, unless their eyes were truly open, then and only then would they say woe is me that I have been so foolish and deceived.

 

[ShepherdsPie]

View attachment 924 chosen for damnation? Might you have a scripture handy?

I’ll provide a very good one:

But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14

Lu