Decisional Regeneration vs. Divine Regeneration

[JIM]

Let us briefly consider the answer to your question based upon God's foreknowledge.

1st Peter 1:2​

“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

Yes we were elected based upon God's foreknowledge of knowing the end from the beginning, that cannot be debated. The question one must ask based upon the scriptures is this question: "What could have God known that caused him to elect some and past over a multitude of others?

2, So, what was in God's foreknowledge? Simply put, God knew that if he did not elect some and provide a surety for them, then none would have ever been saved from sin and condemnation, not one! Impossible.

He knew a lot more than just that.

He knew absolutely everything that would come to be. He knew who would believe in Him. He knew who would and who would not obey the gospel (Rom 10:16). Those who have heard and obeyed the gospel will be saved. Why do we know that? Because faith, believing in God, comes by hearing about Christ (Rom 10:17). And it is those whom he knew would believe in Him and love Him that He also predestined (Rom 8:29).

 

[ShepherdsPie]

Let us briefly consider the answer to your question based upon God's foreknowledge.

1st Peter 1:2​

“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

Yes we were elected based upon God's foreknowledge of knowing the end from the beginning, that cannot be debated. The question one must ask based upon the scriptures is this question: "What could have God known that caused him to elect some and past over a multitude of others?

1. We know it was not anything of good works on the sinners part. That's clearly ruled out in many places and proven by every single person that has ever lived, even among the most goldy folks, all had their weakness and sins. even in their most holy acts of serving God. We all, if honest can attest to that fact, sin is mixed with our most holy moment of serving God, even in our prayers to our own shame. We live in a body of SIN and death.

Romans 3:9​

“What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;”

I could expand this greatly to add so much support to this one point, but if honest, all must agree that man by nature is a very sinful person, so much so, that he is at enmity against the very God that created him, to a point he would even deny that there is even a God if God hardens his heart ~ by that statement, I mean if God leaves him totally to his deceitful heart, then the depth of sin man would go is almost unthinkable, and very gross, yett we know we all could be that man, apart from the grace of God.

2, So, what was in God's foreknowledge? Simply put, God knew that if he did not elect some and provide a surety for them, then none would have ever been saved from sin and condemnation, not one! Impossible. Consider Paul' words::




God said that none did based on what he foresaw after Adam's sin. So, he in mercy determined according to his own will, to provide salvation from sin and condemnation to some and while others he left them to their own sin and destruction, which btw they were very happy serving their own lust, and would not have it any other way, unless their eyes were truly open, then and only then would they say woe is me that I have been so foolish and deceived.

The foreknowledge of God Almighty is all the explanation we need to understand Election, in my opinion. Just as our Father knew Jeremiah before the foundation of the world, He knows each one of His children.

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

- Romans 8:28-30 (NKJV)

Lu

 

[Red Baker]

Everyone has already been chosen for damnation....Everyone. But from the damnation "pool" God reaches in and saves some. As to why God saves some??? I can only speculate. God has His purpose.

Agreed.

Romans 9:13-16~"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

I firmly believe in double predestination, for it is impossible to have one and not the other.

Everyone has already been chosen for damnation....Everyone.

Not chosen, but there by the sin of Adam. The elect have never been chosen to damnation, never. Under the covenant of works under which Adam was placed, the opportunity for life was there~with all Adam needed to enjoy life. What God did not do for Adam was to secure him in the state in which he was created, but left him to his own power to obey and enjoy life in a perfect world without a sin nature.

1st Corinthians 15:22​

“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”

Everyone. But from the damnation "pool" God reaches in and saves some.

I agree that God knew all would be under condemnation through one man's disobedience.

As to why God saves some??? I can only speculate. God has His purpose.

He did what he did according to the purpose of his own will, period!

Ephesians 1:5,6,~"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."

All of God's children said: Amen, and Amen.

There is not one thing outside of God's will that moved him to chose Jacob over Esau, except the good pleasure of his holy will. If any person disagrees with this truth, then you are fighting against the testimony of God himself, a battle you will surely lose. Selah.

 

[Red Baker]

The foreknowledge of God Almighty is all the explanation we need to understand Election, in my opinion. Just as our Father knew Jeremiah before the foundation of the world, He knows each one of His children.

And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

- Romans 8:28-30 (NKJV)

Lu

I'll address you and Jim's post after a few things I need to get done first. You have not presented one thing that I have not addressed for the past fifty years of teaching, preaching and debating.

 

[JIM]

1st Corinthians 15:22​

“For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.”

If all die spiritually in Adam, then verse 22 declares that all will be made alive spiritually, i.e., all will be saved. But we know that isn't true so verse 22 is only about physical death, not death due to sin.

 

[JIM]

I'll address you and Jim's post after a few things I need to get done first. You have not presented one thing that I have not addressed for the past fifty years of teaching, preaching and debating.

And for the past fifty years of teaching, preaching and debating you have been wrong on this topic. But I love you anyway Red.

 

[Red Baker]

He knew a lot more than just that.

Jim, please..... you are not speaking to a novice~but your old friend, who is just behind you in age. You first sentence is a very weak start for you, showing me that you truly cannot refute what I said.

He knew absolutely everything that would come to be.

True, very true, if that helps you a little.

He knew who would believe in Him. He knew who would and who would not obey the gospel (Rom 10:16).

Jim, that destroys the very phrase~election of grace! Do you not hear Paul?

Romans 11:5,6~"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

Romans 11:5~ Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.​

Even so then at this present time also.​

1. Just as God had reserved a group of Israelites in Elijah’s day, He had done the same in Paul’s day.
2. The combination of “even so” and “also” indicates that God had done what He had done earlier.
3. The identity of that generation’s election of grace is important lest we run wild after Jewish fables.
4. This is the second (after Paul’s use of himself in 11:1) indication against any future Jewish revival.

There is a remnant.​

1. A remnant is a small leftover portion of a larger whole e.g. curtain or carpet remnants (Ex 26:12).
2. Paul had appealed to the scriptures earlier for examples of remnant election in Israel (9:25-29).
3. God’s answer to Sennacherib and Assyria involved His blessing of a remnant (II Kings 19:30-31).
4. Will you grasp the incredible blessing to be chosen and loved by God as a remnant (II Thess 2:13)!
5. What a glorious remnant stood for 1260 years against the Whore of Rome and death (Rev 12:17)!

According to the election of grace.​

1. God reserving men to Himself can only be by grace, for the choice is His without any human merit.
2. God’s election of men to salvation in Christ is for the praise of the glory of His grace (Eph 1:3-6).
3. Whether one or many, as with Noah (Gen 6:7), God’s choice to show mercy is all of grace (9:15).

Romans 11:6~ And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.​

And if by grace.​

1. It is by grace, demerited favor, but the apostle wisely chose to proceed in a definitional argument.
2. Their salvation, and our salvation, is by grace, but it is helpful to define and analyze grace in detail.

Then is it no more of works.​

1. If it is by grace, then works cannot at all be involved, for the definition of grace is unmerited favor.
2. Paul had taught earlier in this section about Israel that God’s mercy was by His will only (9:15-16).

Otherwise grace is no more grace.​

1. If works were involved, then it could not be by grace, for the definition of grace excludes works.
2. If you think the language here to be tautology or trite, you do not appreciate grace against works.

But if it be of works.​

1. It is not by works, earned wages, but Paul simply chose to proceed in his definitional argument.
2. Their salvation, and our salvation, is not by works, but it is helpful to define and reject works.

Then is it no more grace.​

1. If it is by works, then grace cannot be involved, for the definition of work is to earn by debt.
2. Works and grace are completely and entirely antithetical, as Paul had earlier taught (4:4).

Otherwise work is no more work.​

1. If grace were involved, then it could not be by works, for the definition of works excludes grace.
2. Thus the apostle gives us one of the clearest examples of grace and works to found anywhere.

Because faith, believing in God, comes by hearing about Christ (Rom 10:17).

This is true as far as how one's faith is increase, it come by hearing the word of God, yet one must first be given the gift of faith, or, the power to believe before one can hear the word of God.

Philippians 1:28,29~"And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God. For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

. And it is those whom he knew would believe in Him and love Him that He also predestined (Rom 8:29).

I'll address this one when posting to Shepards Pie.

 

[JIM]

Romans 11:6~ And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

And if by grace.​

1. It is by grace, demerited favor, but the apostle wisely chose to proceed in a definitional argument.
2. Their salvation, and our salvation, is by grace, but it is helpful to define and analyze grace in detail.

Then is it no more of works.​

1. If it is by grace, then works cannot at all be involved, for the definition of grace is unmerited favor.
2. Paul had taught earlier in this section about Israel that God’s mercy was by His will only (9:15-16).

Otherwise grace is no more grace.​

1. If works were involved, then it could not be by grace, for the definition of grace excludes works.
2. If you think the language here to be tautology or trite, you do not appreciate grace against works.

But if it be of works.​

1. It is not by works, earned wages, but Paul simply chose to proceed in his definitional argument.
2. Their salvation, and our salvation, is not by works, but it is helpful to define and reject works.

Then is it no more grace.​

1. If it is by works, then grace cannot be involved, for the definition of work is to earn by debt.
2. Works and grace are completely and entirely antithetical, as Paul had earlier taught (4:4).

Otherwise work is no more work.​

1. If grace were involved, then it could not be by works, for the definition of works excludes grace.
2. Thus the apostle gives us one of the clearest examples of grace and works to found anywhere

In all those fifty years of teaching, preaching, and debating, you have never figured out what Paul meant when he rejected works as a basis for salvation. You have always missed the mark about works, claiming works means anything we do. But that simply cannot be. The works he rejected as a basis for salvation was works of law.

We do many things that are not works of law. We eat, we drink, we walk we talk, we see, we think and none of those things are works of law.

Jesus said believing in God is a work (John 6:29). Clearly, the work of believing, like eating and drinking, is not a work of Law. Believing is, according to Jesus, is a work that does not exclude grace. Believing in God, i.e, faith, is the fundamental basis upon which God saves. Do I really need to post all the references that explain that faith is key through which the Grace of God saves? I can do that if you need it. But I don't think you do.

Given that believing in God, i.e., faith, is not a work of law, your entire argument is moot. It doesn't work, pun intended.

 

[CrowCross]

View attachment 924 chosen for damnation? Might you have a scripture handy?

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

 

[CrowCross]

Yea. That sure is a funny way of saying it.

Perhaps....Though I might say, from the "pool" of souls....all deserve damnation. From the pool of souls some are chosen for salvation. Yes, damnation is the human "default" position and perhaps in an awkward way you could say if you are not chosen for salvation then by default you have been chosen for damnation.

 

[CrowCross]

If all die spiritually in Adam, then verse 22 declares that all will be made alive spiritually, i.e., all will be saved. But we know that isn't true so verse 22 is only about physical death, not death due to sin.

If that were the case when our sins are forgiven and we are made alive in Christ....we would not die physically. But, we do.

 

[JIM]

If that were the case when our sins are forgiven and we are made alive in Christ....we would not die physically. But, we do.

Dying physically is an integral part of creation. Adam didn't die directly because he sinned. He was ejected from the Garden because he sinned. When he was ejected, he no longer had access to the tree of life which had the ability to keep him from dying (Gen 3:22). Thus in 1 Corinthians 15:22 all dying in Adam simply means that as human beings all die. And they die because that is built into creation. And then all being made alive in that verse is, counter to all dying, means that all will be resurrected (v. 21). Neither the death nor the resurrection of the dead has anything to do with sin, ours or Adam's.

 

[Arial]

Dying physically is an integral part of creation. Adam didn't die directly because he sinned. He was ejected from the Garden because he sinned. When he was ejected, he no longer had access to the tree of life which had the ability to keep him from dying (Gen 3:22). Thus in 1 Corinthians 15:22 all dying in Adam simply means that as human beings all die. And they die because that is built into creation. And then all being made alive in that verse is, counter to all dying, means that all will be resurrected (v. 21). Neither the death nor the resurrection of the dead has anything to do with sin, ours or Adam's.

Where in the creation account does it say anything about death being a part of it? And why, when we get to the end of the story do we find that Jesus actually destroyed death. That that is what He was doing from the beginning?

Only the ability to die was a part of the creation and its coming into creation or not coming into it, was contingent upon one thing. Full and perfect obedience to God or disobedience. Disobedience would bring into mankind what he did not have at creation. The knowledge of both good and evil. Once mankind had the knowledge of evil because he had done evil (sin), he could no longer be allowed to live forever.

To say that neither death or the resurrection of the dead have anything to do with sin is to miss the whole point. The dead in Christ, because their sins have been forgiven, will be raised in glory. Those dead who are not in Christ and therefore have not been forgiven. will be raised to a horrible irreversible judgement and the fierce wrath of God. Though Jesus had the power and glory to take the place of everyone on the cross and purchase forgiveness for everyone, He never intended to do so. If that had been His intent, that is what would have happened. He went to the cross for those the Father was giving Him, according to the will of the Father---just like He said and did only what the Father commanded all the days of His life even unto the cross.

Those who love God only do so because He first loved us. He does not love us because we first loved Him.

 

[Arial]

Jesus said believing in God is a work (John 6:29). Clearly, the work of believing, like eating and drinking, is not a work of Law. Believing is, according to Jesus, is a work that does not exclude grace. Believing in God, i.e, faith, is the fundamental basis upon which God saves.

Jesus was speaking to Jews who were thoroughly convinced that the works of the law would save them. And He puts that statement into that context. It is in the midst of a discussion that comes from Jesus statement in verse 26. Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to Eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal. This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent."

What follows is a discussion in which Jesus identifies himself as the true bread from heaven, and they ask for that bread. To which Jesus replies, (35-40) Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day, For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

Given that this follows the statement of verse 29, the work of God might well mean that it is our believing is God's doing. But even if that is not the case, it clearly is saying that believing is not something that merits grace, but it is by the will of the Father that we believe and that is grace. Jesus said that, even though those listening to him had just seen him feed five thousand with a couple of fish and a few loaves of bread, they still did not believe who He was, but remained locked into salvation by works.

 

[ShepherdsPie]

John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Yes, i agree. But you said that “Everyone has already been chosen for damnation....Everyone.” This is not true.
But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14

Lu

 

[JIM]

Where in the creation account does it say anything about death being a part of it?

If death wasn't an integral feature of the creation, there would have been no use for the tree in the Garden of Eden. God ejected Adam from the Garden for the explicit reason of not allowing him access to that fruit. That physical death is due to Adam's sin is a terrible mistake. It causes so much misinterpretation and understanding of so much scripture as you have just shown.

And why, when we get to the end of the story do we find that Jesus actually destroyed death. That that is what He was doing from the beginning?

Jesus destroyed death only in the resurrection. His destruction of death did not keep anyone from dying, it only overcame it after the dying actually occurs by the resurrection. And that happens for everyone, saved or condemned.

To say that neither death or the resurrection of the dead have anything to do with sin is to miss the whole point. The dead in Christ, because their sins have been forgiven, will be raised in glory.

They are not dead physically because of their sins (even though some sins, ours and others, actually are the direct cause of dying). All die spiritually, just as Adam did when he sinned.

Those who love God only do so because He first loved us. He does not love us because we first loved Him.

You are correct. But He does save us because we love Him (Rom 8:28)

 

[Arial]

Yes, i agree. But you said that “Everyone has already been chosen for damnation....Everyone.” This is not true.
But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14

Lu

Also we are not chosen for damnation in the same sense as the elect are chosen to be given to Christ.. Those not chosen for Christ, simply remain in their own sin.

I have come to lean towards the idea that the elect are created---that is given life in this world, born----for the very purpose of the glory of Christ, and are brought safely and certainly to regeneration (for they too are born in Adam, and in bondage to sin) and by grace, given the faith they need. This regeneration is the very glory and power and love of God, and cannot be found within our unredeemed self.

 

[JIM]

Also we are not chosen for damnation in the same sense as the elect are chosen to be given to Christ.. Those not chosen for Christ, simply remain in their own sin.

{edit} There are only two possibilities. Not chosen for one can logically only mean chosen for the other. It is precisely in the same sense. It doesn't really matter which group is chosen to wear the armband, because the net effect is exactly the same.

But, of course, neither is true.

 

[Carbon]

Perhaps....Though I might say, from the "pool" of souls....all deserve damnation. From the pool of souls some are chosen for salvation. Yes, damnation is the human "default" position and perhaps in an awkward way you could say if you are not chosen for salvation then by default you have been chosen for damnation.

Do you think its the default position? Really?

 

[Arial]

If death wasn't an integral feature of the creation, there would have been no use for the tree in the Garden of Eden. God ejected Adam from the Garden for the explicit reason of not allowing him access to that fruit. That physical death is due to Adam's sin is a terrible mistake. It causes so much misinterpretation and understanding of so much scripture as you have just shown.

Pay attention to what I said, address it directly, instead of just disagreeing with it on completely other grounds.

Only the ability to die was a part of the creation and its coming into creation or not coming into it, was contingent upon one thing. Full and perfect obedience to God or disobedience. Disobedience would bring into mankind what he did not have at creation. The knowledge of both good and evil. Once mankind had the knowledge of evil because he had done evil (sin), he could no longer be allowed to live forever.

Jesus destroyed death only in the resurrection. His destruction of death did not keep anyone from dying, it only overcame it after the dying actually occurs by the resurrection. And that happens for everyone, saved or condemned.

Death has no power over the believer. Because sin cannot condemn them. ( Romans 8:1,9-11, 31-39)

It is a right now, not yet situation. When all those Jesus died for have come in to the kingdom, then Jesus will return, and with a sword and garments drenched in blood destroy the author of death who deceived Eve and all the unbelieving forever. But Jesus has already defeated the power that sin and death have over the believer to separate them from God.

As I said, the redeemed rise glorified, the rest of the dead rise to face the wrath of God in judgement. Rising from the dead is a good thing, a glorious thing for those in Christ. It is a terrible thing for those who are not.

They are not dead physically because of their sins (even though some sins, ours and others, actually are the direct cause of dying). All die spiritually, just as Adam did when he sinned.

It is because of sin that everyone dies. "If you eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you will die." First you argue for physical death as a part of creation and then you argue against it. "Spiritual death" is actually a phrase coined to express the condition of man when they were separated from God in the sense of losing access to the tree of life. The Spirit is life, the Father gives life and takes it away, Christ is the life. Men die physically because they are alienated from God. They die "spiritually" in that that they are now alienated from the Spirit of life.

You are correct. But He does save us because we love Him (Rom 8:28)

Paul is writing to those who have first been loved by God---to believers. That is who the "we" are----the ones who have been what? Foreknown ----which does not mean that He knew they would believe. If that were the case there would be no meaning to what follows----predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. And then called those he predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son. ANd justified them through faith in Christ, and will glorify them in Christ.