Decisional Regeneration vs. Divine Regeneration

[JIM]

Jesus was speaking to Jews who were thoroughly convinced that the works of the law would save them.

I agree with that. That was the common view of nearly all Jews. Jesus, indeed, spoke against that. That does not mitigate against the fact that Jesus said that believing was a work, it was something that we do.

And as a matter of interest, it was Jews who were thoroughly convinced that the works of the law would save them that Paul wrote Romans 9. His whole point of that chapter was to dissuade them of that false notion.

Given that this follows the statement of verse 29, the work of God might well mean that it is our believing is God's doing. But even if that is not the case, it clearly is saying that believing is not something that merits grace, but it is by the will of the Father that we believe and that is grace. Jesus said that, even though those listening to him had just seen him feed five thousand with a couple of fish and a few loaves of bread, they still did not believe who He was, but remained locked into salvation by works.

That is not true at all. There is no way to twist that out of it. Clearly Jesus answered their question directly and accurately. Their question was, "What can WE DO to to the works of God?"

And that old nonsense about not meriting grace is such a red flag. Nothing could possibly ever be enough to merit eternal life. That is the point. If one kept the entire law of God perfectly, save one, he would not merit eternal life. That does not mean that God did not place some conditions for receiving that grace. Conditions, no matter how numerous or egregious even if perfectly met, could ever be said to merit the grace of being given eternal life. That would mirror the poor schlock who once claimed, "I'd give a thousand dollars to be one of them millionaires". It just doesn't work that way.

 

[Carbon]

Pay attention to what I said, address it directly, instead of just disagreeing with it on completely other grounds.


Death has no power over the believer. Because sin cannot condemn them. ( Romans 8:1,9-11, 31-39)

It is a right now, not yet situation. When all those Jesus died for have come in to the kingdom, then Jesus will return, and with a sword and garments drenched in blood destroy the author of death who deceived Eve and all the unbelieving forever. But Jesus has already defeated the power that sin and death have over the believer to separate them from God.

As I said, the redeemed rise glorified, the rest of the dead rise to face the wrath of God in judgement. Rising from the dead is a good thing, a glorious thing for those in Christ. It is a terrible thing for those who are not.

It is because of sin that everyone dies. "If you eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you will die." First you argue for physical death as a part of creation and then you argue against it. "Spiritual death" is actually a phrase coined to express the condition of man when they were separated from God in the sense of losing access to the tree of life. The Spirit is life, the Father gives life and takes it away, Christ is the life. Men die physically because they are alienated from God. They die "spiritually" in that that they are now alienated from the Spirit of life.


Paul is writing to those who have first been loved by God---to believers. That is who the "we" are----the ones who have been what? Foreknown ----which does not mean that He knew they would believe. If that were the case there would be no meaning to what follows----predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. And then called those he predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son. ANd justified them through faith in Christ, and will glorify them in Christ.

Amen!

 

[JIM]

Pay attention to what I said, address it directly, instead of just disagreeing with it on completely other grounds.

Now that is funny. Why don't you pay attention to what I said and address it directly. Your physical death is not the result of sin, yours or Adam's. Death is an integral feature of this creation -- PERIOD!

Even as a chosen one of God, you will physically die, not because you sinned nor because Adam sinned, but because that is the way God made it.

 

[Carbon]

Now that is funny. Why don't you pay attention to what I said and address it directly. Your physical death is not the result of sin, yours or Adam's. Death is an integral feature of this creation -- PERIOD!

Even as a chosen one of God, you will physically die, not because you sinned nor because Adam sinned, but because that is the way God made it.

As long as Adam and Eve remained in the garden and ate from the tree of life, they would have lived forever, in the state they were.

So in a sense, their sin was the cause of physical death. If they did not sin they would not have been sent out of the garden.

But do you see all the types and shadows?

 

[JIM]

As long as Adam and Eve remained in the garden and ate from the tree of life, they would have lived forever, in the state they were.

So in a sense, their sin was the cause of physical death. If they did not sin they would not have been sent out of the garden.

But do you see all the types and shadows?

I see the specific reason that God placed the tree of life in the Garden in the first place. If it were not there and even if they had not sinned, they would have died without it.

 

[Arial]

Now that is funny. Why don't you pay attention to what I said and address it directly. Your physical death is not the result of sin, yours or Adam's. Death is an integral feature of this creation -- PERIOD!

Even as a chosen one of God, you will physically die, not because you sinned nor because Adam sinned, but because that is the way God made it.

I did address your posts JIM, See post #233 and 244. If you had addressed their content you would know that.

 

[Alive]

Really simple guys…all of mankind is rushing toward a cliff. God chose to stop some.
All the rest are served grace in that they get to live lives, enjoy the creation and family…then they perish.
Twice dead forever.
God elected His to fulfill His Eternal Purpose…to have a family after His Kind.
The rest, we will find out later.

 

[CrowCross]

Yes, i agree. But you said that “Everyone has already been chosen for damnation....Everyone.” This is not true.
But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14

Lu

Have we all not sinned and fallen short? What is the wages of that?

I get your point...we're simply spitting hairs on terminology

 

[JIM]

I did address your posts JIM, See post #233 and 244. If you had addressed their content you would know that.

No, you did no t in post #233, address my post. You just ignored what I wrote and stated something altogether different.

 

[JIM]

Really simple guys…all of mankind is rushing toward a cliff. God chose to stop some.
All the rest are served grace in that they get to live lives, enjoy the creation and family…then they perish.
Twice dead forever.
God elected His to fulfill His Eternal Purpose…to have a family after His Kind.
The rest, we will find out later.

But none of that has anything to do with why we will die physically.

 

[CrowCross]

Do you think its the default position? Really?

Absolutely. Especially for non-believers.
When we commit our first sin we are not saved....at that current time.
If we were to die then we would face damnation. But then again you can argue God will save the elect no matter what and we would not die then.

If you guys want to go round and round on this....have at it.

 

[JIM]

Have we all not sinned and fallen short? What is the wages of that?

I get your point...we're simply spitting hairs on terminology

The false Calvin doctrine on election is not splitting hairs on terminology.

 

[Alive]

Absolutely. Especially for non-believers.
When we commit our first sin we are not saved....at that current time.
If we were to die then we would face damnation. But then again you can argue God will save the elect no matter what and we would not die then.

If you guys want to go round and round on this....have at it.

This turns salvation into a crap shoot. Not tenable.

 

[Carbon]

Absolutely. Especially for non-believers.
When we commit our first sin we are not saved....at that current time.
If we were to die then we would face damnation. But then again you can argue God will save the elect no matter what and we would not die then.

If you guys want to go round and round on this....have at it.

No need to go round and round. And I thought you were one of us guys?

 

[Arial]

I agree with that. That was the common view of nearly all Jews. Jesus, indeed, spoke against that. That does not mitigate against the fact that Jesus said that believing was a work, it was something that we do.

They were asking about work. Because of their unbelief. What about the rest of the scriptures I quoted and expounded on that immediately follow that quote? What about them? What about them? What about them?

And as a matter of interest, it was Jews who were thoroughly convinced that the works of the law would save them that Paul wrote Romans 9. His whole point of that chapter was to dissuade them of that false notion.

What I said!

Read the posts that are posted to you if you are going to respond to them!

That is not true at all. There is no way to twist that out of it. Clearly Jesus answered their question directly and accurately. Their question was, "What can WE DO to to the works of God?"

But that is not ALL he said JIM. Truthfully he was more likely saying they can't work what is necessary, given the situation. But only if you take the rest of what he said---even context iow---and to consideration. They were Jews ---that did believe in God. What they didn't believe was Jesus.

And that old nonsense about not meriting grace is such a red flag. Nothing could possibly ever be enough to merit eternal life. That is the point. If one kept the entire law of God perfectly, save one, he would not merit eternal life. That does not mean that God did not place some conditions for receiving that grace. Conditions, no matter how numerous or egregious even if perfectly met, could ever be said to merit the grace of being given eternal life. That would mirror the poor schlock who once claimed, "I'd give a thousand dollars to be one of them millionaires". It just doesn't work that way.

What does grace mean? Think about that for a couple of minutes. In its simplest definition it means unmerited favor. What does unmerited mean? Not deserved, not earned, freely given.

If a condition is placed in order to receive grace and the condition is met---in this case faith-----and as a result of the condition being met, God grants grace, where has the grace of grace gone? It is called grace by which we are saved because it is all of God, every last drip and drop of it, including the faith through which we are saved. So you see where the view that you and many others have goes wrong? Why certain scriptures must be wrested from their clear meaning? It is because the premise is wrong. In reality it begins with the ever demanding voice of humanity fighting against God being who God is, even in the believer. Some places it just does not want to submit. It remains stubborn against sanctification in that area for it still sees dimly.

But for the grace of God, it still cannot separate the believer from Christ.

 

[Arial]

No, you did no t in post #233, address my post. You just ignored what I wrote and stated something altogether different.

Post 232

Dying physically is an integral part of creation. Adam didn't die directly because he sinned. He was ejected from the Garden because he sinned. When he was ejected, he no longer had access to the tree of life which had the ability to keep him from dying (Gen 3:22). Thus in 1 Corinthians 15:22 all dying in Adam simply means that as human beings all die. And they die because that is built into creation. And then all being made alive in that verse is, counter to all dying, means that all will be resurrected (v. 21). Neither the death nor the resurrection of the dead has anything to do with sin, ours or Adam's.

Post 233

Where in the creation account does it say anything about death being a part of it? And why, when we get to the end of the story do we find that Jesus actually destroyed death. That that is what He was doing from the beginning?

Only the ability to die was a part of the creation and its coming into creation or not coming into it, was contingent upon one thing. Full and perfect obedience to God or disobedience. Disobedience would bring into mankind what he did not have at creation. The knowledge of both good and evil. Once mankind had the knowledge of evil because he had done evil (sin), he could no longer be allowed to live forever.

Post 233

To say that neither death or the resurrection of the dead have anything to do with sin is to miss the whole point. The dead in Christ, because their sins have been forgiven, will be raised in glory. Those dead who are not in Christ and therefore have not been forgiven. will be raised to a horrible irreversible judgement and the fierce wrath of God. Though Jesus had the power and glory to take the place of everyone on the cross and purchase forgiveness for everyone, He never intended to do so. If that had been His intent, that is what would have happened. He went to the cross for those the Father was giving Him, according to the will of the Father---just like He said and did only what the Father commanded all the days of His life even unto the cross.

Those who love God only do so because He first loved us. He does not love us because we first loved Him.

How is that not addressing post 232?

 

[Arial]

I see the specific reason that God placed the tree of life in the Garden in the first place. If it were not there and even if they had not sinned, they would have died without it.

That is a lot of what ifs. We could play the game of what if all day long and with everything. They add nothing to the understanding of the truth. It was there and they died because they couldn't get to it anymore, and the reason they couldn't get to it anymore was because they sinned. You cannot take your what if and develop a doctrine out of the what if that is no where stated or implied in the text. God said if they ate from the forbidden fruit they would die. And guess what? Not only did Adam and Eve die but every man dies---physically and is born already "spiritually dead." That is why he sins. And spiritually dead does not mean his spirit is dead.

 

[ShepherdsPie]

Have we all not sinned and fallen short? What is the wages of that?

I get your point...we're simply spitting hairs on terminology

We need to consider who we were before the foundation of the world. And no, I certainly do not believe in reincarnation.
Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying: "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations." Jeremiah 1:4-5

Let’s seriously consider 2 Peter 3.
For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. 2 Peter 3:5-10,13

Lu

 

[ShepherdsPie]

Is the planet just 6,000 years old, as many Christians believe? I don’t think so.

Lu

 

[Carbon]

Is the planet just 6,000 years old, as many Christians believe? I don’t think so.

Lu

I don't think so either.