The Baptism of John

[JesusFan]

See now we are getting closer to the true meaning. Of course the water isn't the power to remit sin it is merrily the vessel God has chosen to use while doing the transformation. It is the work of the cross that remits sin and God has connected that to the baptism in the name of Christ. In the baptism in Christ name we are meeting Christ at the cross and being crucified and raised into him see Romans 6

The cross is what sets apart the 2 baptisms Johns only pointed to the coming of the kingdom but Christ added one to the kingdom see Acts 2

The entry way into the Kingdom of God is faith in the Lord Jesus, not being water baptism

 

[JesusFan]

@CrowCross never said that the command/response to be baptized is being excluded. The issue is whether or not repentance because of understanding remits sin or is it baptism that remits sin. I wouldn't worry about those Christians who believe in salvation through faith alone, which is true of Protestant Christianity doctrinally, so nearly all, are going round saying I don't have to be baptized because I was saved by faith alone. Baptism is an ordinance of the Christian church. You argue as though baptism itself is being attacked. It isn't.

We are just attacking baptismal regeneration heresy

 

[JesusFan]

Irrelevant to conversation.

That is full of rules violations which I will deal with as soon as I am finished responding to this post.
You failed to consider any other scriptures that concern sorteriology---how we are saved. Do you not believe in the Protestant interpretive method that the Bible itself is the sole authority on the interpretation of Scripture (scripture interprets scripture)? That is, difficult passages or those that seem to be presenting a contradiction of other scriptures are interpreted through the lens of those passages that are clear on the same subject. You have already indicated that you deny the Protestant mandate of salvation through faith alone. Do you dump this one too?
The premise that everything we need to know about baptism is to be found in a topical study of baptism and nothing else is a false premise. As long as one uses that to say our sins are remitted by baptism and ignores all else, the belief is built on shifting sand. Why? Because the Bible has a great deal more to say about how sins are remitted. And even the topical study of baptism has omitted those passages that clearly show it is a sign of something, even though that should be obvious. It ignores the comparison that the Bible itself makes between circumcision as a covenant sign (clearly stated and I have given those passages) and the Christian baptism as a covenant sign. A sign points to or represents something other, something greater, than the sign itself. It has nothing whatsoever to do with what I want the Bible to say. It is correctly handling the word of God.

More rules violations.
I am not saying Paul doesn't know what he is talking about. You are saying I don't know what I am talking about. I gave you scripture of Paul' explicit statements of justification through faith and nothing more. Where is your rebuttal of those scriptures?

When you say that Christ chose to remit sins in the baptism in his name, you use two selective verses and ignore everything else to prove your point, and presume upon the intentions and desires of the Lord.

Luke's narrative.

So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized; 19and taking food, he was strengthened.

It does not say he was baptized for the remission of sin. Here is the grammatical breakdown of Acts 22: 16, which is important given all the places that state we are saved through faith, not baptism.

"be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name."
The verbs are:

• “Be baptized” — passive imperative
• “Wash away your sins” — middle imperative
• “Calling on His name” — aorist participle functioning like “by calling on His name”

The participle (calling on his name) attaches the washing away to calling on the Lord, not the act of baptism. IOW Your sins are washed away by calling on His name, and baptism is the outward sign that accompanies this.

This keeps perfectly with the pattern in Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13.

The theology of Acts never attributes forgiveness to baptism itself.

Acts 10:43-48. They receive remission of sins by believing (v.43), then are baptized (47-48).
Acts 16:30-33 the Phillipian jailer. "Believe--- and you will be saved." Then he is baptized.
Acts 3:19 Repentance and turning to God are what bring forgiveness.

Paul himself denites baptismal remission as cause.
"Christ did not send me to baptize but toe preach the gospel" (1 Cor 1:17). This would make no sense if baptism itself remitted sins.
:We are justified by faith apart from works" (Romans 3-4). Water baptism is an external work. Paul's sins were forgiven before baptism. Christ had already appeared to him and he already believed, and he already called on Jesus' name before Ananias arrived (Acts 9).

Further supporting your main points
The phrase "baptism is now a type" usually refers to the New Testament concept where Christian baptism is the antitype (the reality) that fulfills or corresponds to Old Testament "types" (foreshadows), like Noah's flood or the Israelites crossing the Red Sea, showing how believers are saved through Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, not just by water washing away dirt, but as a pledge of a good conscience before God. It's a theological way to say baptism is the fulfillment of ancient patterns, signifying spiritual cleansing and new life in Christ.

 

[BillyBob65]

The entry way into the Kingdom of God is faith in the Lord Jesus, not being water baptism

Look at Mark 16:16 you are not arguing with me but scripture. Belief and baptism go together according to my Lord.

 

[CrowCross]

Look at Mark 16:16 you are not arguing with me but scripture. Belief and baptism go together according to my Lord.

I've looked t mark 16:16.....the second part of the statement doesn't even mention baptism.
The second part of the statement doesn't say...but whoever does not believe and is not baptized will be condemned.

 

[BillyBob65]

We are just attacking baptismal regeneration heresy

You are arguing with the scriptures and relabeling the Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ does not help your case for it does not Change what God has said on the subject.

 

[BillyBob65]

Further supporting your main points
The phrase "baptism is now a type" usually refers to the New Testament concept where Christian baptism is the antitype (the reality) that fulfills or corresponds to Old Testament "types" (foreshadows), like Noah's flood or the Israelites crossing the Red Sea, showing how believers are saved through Christ's death, burial, and resurrection, not just by water washing away dirt, but as a pledge of a good conscience before God. It's a theological way to say baptism is the fulfillment of ancient patterns, signifying spiritual cleansing and new life in Christ.

It saves even baptism doth also now save us you over looked those words. Yes baptism in Christ name is not just a weekly bath but the calling upon the Lord like Paul says in Acts 22:16 Just saying lets keep with the scripture meanning.

 

[BillyBob65]

I've looked t mark 16:16.....the second part of the statement doesn't even mention baptism.
The second part of the statement doesn't say...but whoever does not believe and is not baptized will be condemned.

Please let stop with the dancing and be real for a minute. Lets read it together and study what it is saying.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Notice this is Jesus words talking to his Apostles. He clearly tell them that who believes AND is baptized shall be saved.
That is so clearly worded that even a second grader could understand. It is the teaching through out the bible from Acts 2 forward.

Now you say that the second part doesn't even mention baptism so I must ask why would it? It is already spelled out the one has to believe in order to be baptized. So "he that believeth not shall be damned" is a given if faith in the gospel is not there, there will be no response to the gospel. It doesn't need to say

but whoever does not believe and is not baptized will be condemned.

If one does not believe they will not respond in baptism that is elementary my dear Watson. This is a mute thought the unbelief cancels any need to go forward with and baptized will be save. It does not nullify the words of God just mean salvation can not be obtained if one of the factors is missing.

 

[JesusFan]

Please let stop with the dancing and be real for a minute. Lets read it together and study what it is saying.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Notice this is Jesus words talking to his Apostles. He clearly tell them that who believes AND is baptized shall be saved.
That is so clearly worded that even a second grader could understand. It is the teaching through out the bible from Acts 2 forward.

Now you say that the second part doesn't even mention baptism so I must ask why would it? It is already spelled out the one has to believe in order to be baptized. So "he that believeth not shall be damned" is a given if faith in the gospel is not there, there will be no response to the gospel. It doesn't need to say

If one does not believe they will not respond in baptism that is elementary my dear Watson. This is a mute thought the unbelief cancels any need to go forward with and baptized will be save. It does not nullify the words of God just mean salvation can not be obtained if one of the factors is missing.

So you are Church of Christ then, as you seem to be stating that one must complete the salvation process by being water baptized then?

 

[BillyBob65]

So you are Church of Christ then, as you seem to be stating that one must complete the salvation process by being water baptized then?J

ust reading the text and believing what it says do you disagree with what Jesus himself said there? If so why?

sorry messed up the quote box while trying to edit

 

[Arial]

John 6:37,39,65; Now compare that with Romans 10 and see how they are called.

37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

What did I quote those verses in reference to? So why are you asking me to compare them to Romans 10 and how we are called. What does that have to do with the conversation we are having? I simply used them of scriptural verification of my statement.

John 17:2,6, 9,24; This whole chapter is a prayer from Jesus to his Father he is saying he has done the work of giving the word to the Apostles and they will be faithful to the end. While we can say if we obey the word and keep it faithful to the end we to can be kept but it isn't talking about us but the Apostles. I know you cant see that because you feel this is your trump card but truly have missed the point.

Read it again. Pay attention to verse
20“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

John 19:29

John 10:29

John 3:5-6; Now compare that with Romans if so do not see how it relates

Romans what?

3John 1:12-1 don't know what this means is it 3 john 1:12 not 12-1 If so do not see how it relates

John 1:12-13

Titus 3:5 compare this with Romans ^ and while there be sure to se who is doing the washing I am sure you will see it says by the glory of God.

Romans what and when you tell me remind be of what verse it is you want me to compare it to.

1 Cor 2:12,14 Again this is in relation to the Apostles he is saying the the spirit gave them the word in which they preach it is not mans word but Gods word

That is not true. I had a Unitarian try and pull that same wool over my eyes. Read the rest of the chapter and you will see that it makes no sense that he was only speaking of the apostles. It would mean only the apostles are able to discern spiritual things, no matter how many words were spoken or written.

Compare this statement with Romans 10 Apparently Paul seems to think man can understand the gospel preached to them.

Paul is writing to believers who have the Spirit, not unbelievers who don't.

I am glad you pointed to this scripture. Here is what I have been trying to get you to understand. When Paul is talking about works he is referring to the works of the law.

In Galatians he was because he was comparing it to the law of the old covenant. Even Christians are to obey the law of God, meaning his moral code as reflecting his image. But in essence a work is anything that man does in addition to what Christ did. But you did not address the passages I gave in Romans: 8:33; 3:26; 3:8. Why not?

See Ephesian 2:8 We are justified by The faith that once was delivered and in that faith the gospel call to respond is in baptism in Christ name see Acts 2

Baptism is not part of the gospel. It is what we are commanded to do after we have been forgiven through faith.

 

[BillyBob65]

sorry messed up the quote box while trying to edit

37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

What did I quote those verses in reference to? So why are you asking me to compare them to Romans 10 and how we are called. What does that have to do with the conversation we are having? I simply used them of scriptural verification of my statement.

Read it again. Pay attention to verse
20“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

John 10:29

Romans what?



Romans what and when you tell me remind be of what verse it is you want me to compare it to.

That is not true. I had a Unitarian try and pull that same wool over my eyes. Read the rest of the chapter and you will see that it makes no sense that he was only speaking of the apostles. It would mean only the apostles are able to discern spiritual things, no matter how many words were spoken or written.

Paul is writing to believers who have the Spirit, not unbelievers who don't.

In Galatians he was because he was comparing it to the law of the old covenant. Even Christians are to obey the law of God, meaning his moral code as reflecting his image. But in essence a work is anything that man does in addition to what Christ did. But you did not address the passages I gave in Romans: 8:33; 3:26; 3:8. Why not?

Baptism is not part of the gospel. It is what we are commanded to do after we have been forgiven through faith.

Read it again. Pay attention to verse
20“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

Okay I am reading it again right now as you asked. As I pay close attention I see it is about the Apostles as I mentioned before and he tells you right here how one is called to believe it is through their word (the gospel he gave them to spread) that they believe and remember in the gospel
Acts 2 records baptism in the name of Jesus Christ as the commanded response. And verse 21 relates back to Romans 6 where Paul describes how we are transformed from dead to sin to alive in Christ and if we are in Christ we are in the God head for it is one.
I am sorry the reference to Romans was Romans 6 don't know why it did not type in. So please compare John 3:5,6 to Romans 6

John 10:29 is another discussion all together, it is one the faith only group use for once saved always saved. It doesn't say how one is given to Christ.

I asked you to compare Titus 3:5 to Romans 6 also hey funny thing I found out why it is missing the 6 in my posting because I stupidly press the shift button while trying to do 6 silly me sorry about that.

That is not true. I had a Unitarian try and pull that same wool over my eyes. Read the rest of the chapter and you will see that it makes no sense that he was only speaking of the apostles. It would mean only the apostles are able to discern spiritual things, no matter how many words were spoken or written.

I think you are missing the understanding please go back and read the whole chapter. Paul starts off saying he is talking about himself
1And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
and continues to we meaning the other Apostles. The whole chapter is Paul saying that they speak not of there own words but only what the spirit has given them to say. Remember what you have been preaching to me CONTEXT my brother context.

Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. Yes and God tells you how to be justifies it is by obeying the gospel call.

Romans 3:26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Yes and How does God justify through the gospel. You have to obey the gospel call.

Romans 3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just. Don't know how you are relating this to the discussion.

Baptism is not part of the gospel. It is what we are commanded to do after we have been forgiven through faith.

With all due respect that is merrily your view but it does contradict many other scriptures. I have shown you all the ones it contradicts so you will have to study to make sure your view aligns with all scripture dealing with the salvation from God. I am afraid you are missing some important scriptural meaning but you will have to study to show yourself approved. It is a sad thing to be on the wrong side of scripture. I too study hard to be in align with what the scriptures teach hope some day we can be united with the Christ in his word.