Christian Baptism, does it include infants?

[Eleanor]

Yes, it is a good morning. I am looking at the grass from the green side.
Yes, and again, that really is not connected with regeneration at all.
Yes, of course. But what you and Roland (the article you posted) are calling conversion, I would call sanctification.
Regeneration is an event that happens in a single moment, but its effects are meant to be eternal. It is the beginning point for a process that lasts throughout this life and reaches perfection in heaven. This process is usually called sanctification.
The term “sanctification” is part of the word family having to do with holiness. Though some disagree, I believe the root idea in this word family is separation. The OT word for “holy” (qadosh) most likely comes from a word that means “to cut, to divide, to separate.” Thus a holy person or thing is one that is separated or set apart from others.

Holy is "set apart" from sin.

We have seen that God is holy in two senses. First is his ontological holiness, or transcendence. This means that God as eternal and uncreated is set apart from or distinct from all created beings in his very essence. Second is his ethical holiness, or perfect moral purity. This means that he is separate in every way from sin and everything sinful.

In the NT the main adjective for “holy” is hagios. Variations are the verb hagiazo, “to make holy, to set apart or consecrate, to sanctify”; and the noun hagiasmos, “holiness, sanctification, consecration.” Thus sanctification is basically the same concept as holiness. We should also note that the adjective hagios is often used as a noun, i.e., “holy one.” When used thus of Christians, it is usually translated “saint.”

 

[Mr GLee]

And you seriously think all those fancy words in Salvation is Relocation aren't human conjecture and akin to Gnosticism??!! That is truly amazing.

Gnosticism meaning "learned", "intellectual". natural word different sources of knowledge. One builds up.

Which learned ones, no one can serve two teaching masters . Taught of Christ spiritual wisdom not seen (living faith) or dying mankind seen the wisdom of this world ?What you se is all you get .

Satan would make it all one in the same . .losing the spiritual value of Christ .as Lucifer the antichrist. . father of lies.

 

[JIM]

Holy is "set apart" from sin.

What do you mean by "set apart" from sin?

 

[JIM]

Gnosticism meaning "learned", "intellectual". natural word different sources of knowledge. One builds up.

Which learned ones, no one can serve two teaching masters . Taught of Christ spiritual wisdom not seen (living faith) or dying mankind seen the wisdom of this world ?What you se is all you get .

Satan would make it all one in the same . .losing the spiritual value of Christ .as Lucifer the antichrist. . father of lies.

As usual, I cannot follow most of what you post. It is confusing, at best.

 

[Eleanor]

What do you mean by "set apart" from sin?

Living in obedience to God.

 

[Mr GLee]

As usual, I cannot follow most of what you post. It is confusing, at best.

Hi thanks .sorry. .

Did you have a question?

Words have meanings . Gnosticism simply meaning "learned", "intellectual" it dos not mean sinful action

Two kinds intellectual Gnostics .God one good intellectual.

The other the author of confusion the identity thief . .

Satan would make it all one in the same (Gnosticism) a derogatory word . Taking away the spiritual understanding as it is written, making the living word of God without effect.

Again two sided the coin of intellect .One Caesar dying mankind the other hidden the eternal wise one. the Gnostic the all knowing one.

 

[JIM]

Living in obedience to God.

Yes, but not perfectly so until Jesus comes again for us in the next life in heaven. So even not perfectly so, we are still being sanctified, being set apart.

 

[Red Baker]

It's a knowledgeable statement that one cannot be born again without knowing that it has happened.

David, you dear sir, are 100% wrong.

John 3:3​

“Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Nicodemus is the classic example of what I'm saying! The leader of the Jew did not even know what it meant to be born again, yet, he was showing perfect evidence of one which had been born again!

His child like confession in verse two is as good of a confession as any man on this forum or in any church throughout thsi world! His confession so much different from the other Pharisees, who accused Christ of doing miracles through the power of the prince of the devils. He like John the Baptist showed forth the fruits of the Spirit, though ignorance of much truths.

It's a knowledgeable statement that one cannot be born again without knowing that it has happened.

David, how in the world does anyone know what is happening during the new birth? That is impossible. Man is dead in trespasses and sin. The new birth is like the wind that bloweth, totally invisible. It comes and goes when it pleaseth, and works where it pleaseth, without any permission. Man is 100% passive, God alone is the only active person working! He creates a new man within us after the image of Jesus Christ.

The analogy I used above when a child is born into this world, is no different concerning our spiritual birth. What does a child know, concerning his birth into this world, without someone revealing to them where they were born, even who where their parents. We only know about the new birth by scriptures. All truths we have learned from the scriptures, one being the doctrine of the new birth. Even this truth took a few years to fully understand perfectly, bits and pieces are revealed slowly to all of us.

 

[Eleanor]

Yes, but not perfectly so until Jesus comes again for us in the next life in heaven. So even not perfectly so, we are still being sanctified, being set apart.

We are set apart, not by the fact that we never sin, but by the fact that sin is no longer our governor.

 

[JIM]

We are set apart, not by the fact that we never sin, but by the fact that sin is no longer our governor.

I don't think I have said otherwise. Although I don't really know what you intend by "our governor". It probably doesn't matter.

 

[Arial]

David, how in the world does anyone know what is happening during the new birth? That is impossible. Man is dead in trespasses and sin. The new birth is like the wind that bloweth, totally invisible. It comes and goes when it pleaseth, and works where it pleaseth, without any permission. Man is 100% passive, God alone is the only active person working! He creates a new man within us after the image of Jesus Christ.

A baby being born is not entirely passive in the experience, and he certainly knows he is being born, though he does not know the "word" born or anything about it, or about the world. These things he must learn. Just as the reborn adult must learn. But if a baby did not know he was being born, he would not land in the world screaming his head off, the minute he hits the light outside the womb. He knows something very radical and unknown changed.

 

[makesends]

There are some problems with the first two. But one significant problem is that neither actually provided a biblical definition of conversion. Actually, neither really provided a definition of regeneration either. But then, that is the problem with so much of any discussion that appears on forums such as this. We all talk past each other because there is not agreed upon definition of so many words.

The "assumed" definition of conversion in those have nothing whatsoever with regeneration. Given the meaning of "convert" in Luke 22:32 (KJV), one can be converted an unlimited number of times. And there it is strongly implied that the conversion is self acting, it is something the person does.

For what it is worth, most English versions do not translate/interpret Luke 22:32 as converted, but rather as turn back or come back or turned again. In such, conversion is not only not the same thing as regeneration, they are not even connected.

Perhaps regeneration and conversion are not grammatically connected, or even in the immediate text, logically connected, but would you say that regeneration and repentance are not connected? (And I don't mean immediately connected, but one depending on the other, or, at least, both depending on something else they have in common, and thus neither occurring without the other.) (And, I'm not talking about the kind of repentance often referred to, particularly in the Old Testament, where those who don't know God change their ways for a time, but are not themselves changed.)

 

[Eleanor]

I don't think I have said otherwise. Although I don't really know what you intend by "our governor". It probably doesn't matter.

Those not "set apart" from sin are not saved.

 

[makesends]

A baby being born is not entirely passive in the experience, and he certainly knows he is being born, though he does not know the "word" born or anything about it, or about the world. These things he must learn. Just as the reborn adult must learn. But if a baby did not know he was being born, he would not land in the world screaming his head off, the minute he hits the light outside the womb. He knows something very radical and unknown changed.

Ha! Though I might argue that Jacob wasn't passive when he grabbed Esau's heel, I'd say that in truth they are passive concerning their birth —that is, they do not contribute to it, nor give their consent, nor make any decisions concerning it. They may be aware that something is happening, but their minds are sleepy about it, and they haven't a clue what is going on.

 

[JIM]

Perhaps regeneration and conversion are not grammatically connected, or even in the immediate text, logically connected, but would you say that regeneration and repentance are not connected? (And I don't mean immediately connected, but one depending on the other, or, at least, both depending on something else they have in common, and thus neither occurring without the other.) (And, I'm not talking about the kind of repentance often referred to, particularly in the Old Testament, where those who don't know God change their ways for a time, but are not themselves changed.)

Perhaps I can best answer you by saying that in Acts 2:38 in which Peter tells those hearing him to, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.", I believe that three things occur there for those who did (and do) as Peter commanded. I believe that they were justified; I believe that they were regenerated, and I believe they were (initially) sanctified. I believe that all three things happened in the moment they were baptized. I believe that all three things constituted being saved, having received eternal life. I use the term conversion to mean that instant in the life of a person when he goes from being a lost sinner to becoming a child of God, a saint.

 

[JIM]

Those not "set apart" from sin are not saved.

I haven't said anything different.

 

[Carbon]

Brother, no man knows the hour in which regeneration took place, this would ne impossible. There could be days, even months, maybe even longer, before true evidence is seen. We may get close to the season in which we begin to be willing to listen with a purpose of changing our life, but he exact time is hidden from us. I know this may open up a new can of worms.

But when we are born again, placed in Christ we are a new man. Everything is different, we have a new knowing, an new seeing, a hunger for God etc... These and others are things we did not possesss before regeneration.

 

[Arial]

Ha! Though I might argue that Jacob wasn't passive when he grabbed Esau's heel, I'd say that in truth they are passive concerning their birth —that is, they do not contribute to it, nor give their consent, nor make any decisions concerning it. They may be aware that something is happening, but their minds are sleepy about it, and they haven't a clue what is going on.

That is true. But that is not the way I saw the poster addressing the issue of the new birth in response to @David1701 's post. I could be mistaken---oh LOL----but to me, the analogy fell apart at the outset, by bringing what is learning after the new birth into the equation.

 

[Arial]

But when we are born again, placed in Christ we are a new man. Everything is different, we have a new knowing, an new seeing, a hunger for God etc... These and others are things we did not possesss before regeneration.

Some things change immediately. Not all things---that is the journey we embark upon. With me, and with others who have given their testimony, and I suspect all, even if it is still not recognized for what it was; it was a 180 as @David1701 described. My entire world view changed during the time I went to sleep and the time I woke up in the morning. And my attitude towards God changed from believing in his existence to knowing Him as the holder of all truth and from being God to being my God. I became thirsty for none but the living water---though I did not know of such a thing as living water.

Were there things leading up to that? There always are. From before I was born and was yet being formed in my mother's womb, from my first angry squall at that first abrupt change (even though I kicked and tormented my mother to be set free until she said "I am having this baby today!" two weeks before my due date)every step was leading (by God) towards the new birth in Christ.

 

[makesends]

You cannot be born again without knowing it!

Your inner man is now light in the Lord: before it was only darkness; you now hate the sin you once loved and love the Lord you once hated. You have a new, soft heart/spirit, in place of the heart of stone. This simply cannot happen without you being aware; and it happens in a moment of time, as everyone who has experienced it knows.

Being born again immediately converts you to the Lord in repentance and faith. There could never be a noticeable gap between the two, even though being born again precedes repentance and faith in logical order.

Once you are born again, you are right that you will know it. But it is not up to you to know when it happened. I did not know when it happened. My mother said it was when I was 5 years old, but I don't remember it. All I know about it is, that, (according to my mother, anyway), I did indeed change my behavior (to some degree).

I'm curious how you would assess the 'Second-Work-Of-Grace' testimonies.