• **Notifications**: Notifications can be dismissed by clicking on the "x" on the righthand side of the notice.
  • **New Style**: You can now change style options. Click on the paintbrush at the bottom of this page.
  • **Donations**: If the Lord leads you please consider helping with monthly costs and up keep on our Forum. Click on the Donate link In the top menu bar. Thanks
  • **New Blog section**: There is now a blog section. Check it out near the Private Debates forum or click on the Blog link in the top menu bar.
  • Welcome Visitors! Join us and be blessed while fellowshipping and celebrating our Glorious Salvation In Christ Jesus.

Cessationism what has ceased to exist in the church ?

Well Jesus wouldn't need to operate in the gifts..He is God.. He can do as He wills. I don't think He would have needed the gifts as they would be intrinsically part of Him, as God.

He would give gifts...but not need the gifts Himself. IMO
I said before Jesus is and was the spotless Lamb of God the Son of God slain from the foundation of the world. But when He came to this earth He laid aside certain attributes to live as a man who was our example.

In John 2:11 we find the beginning of miracles. Why were there no miracles as a child? He was the Son of God as a child.

When Jesus was baptized the Spirit of God descended upon Him. There are no recorded miracles of Jesus before that time.

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Why was the Son of God Anointed with power if He already had it at His disposal? He laid all of that aside, He could not be killed as God , He as an act of free laid His life down.

Does God know everything? Yes . Did Jesus as He walked the earth as a man know everything? Let the scripture speak for its self.

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

He said he didn’t know the day or the hour only the Father.


Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Jesus the man was tempted and over came with the Word of God sinless.


James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

God as God cannot be tempted. If Jesus was operating in His min astray as the God of the universe He could not have been tempted.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Look at every miracle He performed in His ministry, every single one of them can be categorized under one of the gifts of the Spirit.

Please don't twist my words into something they do not say. Jesus.was the spotless Son of God but He did not operate His ministry as the God of the universe. He felt pain, He was tempted, He wept, He prayed, He showed mercy and compassion. He resisted temptation with the Word of God.

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

IMO your statement quoted above misunderstands what Jesus did on this earth and how He did it.

I've back up my beliefs with Scripture and not with catch phrases and talking points I hope you will do the same.
 
Last edited:
I suggest you keep your advice to yourself.
You are free to give advice as I am, take it or leave it , your choice.

Your notion that because I don't see from your self-deterministic point-of-view means I don't spend time in the Word of God seems to me a bit arrogant.
I don't expect everyone or you to agree with me but I do expect you to challenge me with the Word of God and not talking points that are used all too often when no scripture is available to support a doctrine.
 
I said before Jesus is and was the spotless Lamb of God the Son of God slain from the foundation of the world. But when He came to this earth He laid aside certain attributes to live as a man who was our example.

In John 2:11 we find the beginning of miracles. Why were there no miracles as a child? He was the Son of God as a child.

When Jesus was baptized the Spirit of God descended upon Him. There are no recorded miracles of Jesus before that time.

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Why was the Son of God Anointed with power if He already had it at His disposal? He laid all of that aside, He could not be killed as God , He as an act of free laid His life down.

Does God know everything? Yes . Did Jesus as He walked the earth as a man know everything? Let the scripture speak for its self.

Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

He said he didn’t know the day or the hour only the Father.


Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Jesus the man was tempted and over came with the Word of God sinless.


James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

God as God cannot be tempted. If Jesus was operating in His min astray as the God of the universe He could not have been tempted.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Look at every miracle He performed in His ministry, every single one of them can be categorized under one of the gifts of the Spirit.

Please don't twist my words into something they do not say. Jesus.was the spotless Son of God but He did not operate His ministry as the God of the universe. He felt pain, He was tempted, He wept, He prayed, He showed mercy and compassion. He resisted temptation with the Word of God.

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

IMO your statement quoted above misunderstands what Jesus did on this earth and how He did it.

I've back up my beliefs with Scripture and not with catch phrases and talking points I hope you will do the same.

Well Jesus forgave sin of those who had not directly sinned against Him. In the 3rd person... before He was resurrected.

That's having power over sin to forgive it for someone who did not directly do it to Him. Only God can do that.

Jesus accepted worship. Not just like a servant to a king..but from those I'm high places. That's another clue to His full diety.

He was fully man also.. as you say so was limited in ways..but that's voluntarily self limiting..not that He couldnt operate fully as God, but chose the right time by the Father's will.

Jesus was tempted..but He didn't sin. He felt pain but not because He was sinful.
 
Sorry previous link post #45 was incorrect. Try this one.
 
Well Jesus forgave sin of those who had not directly sinned against Him. In the 3rd person... before He was resurrected.
Yes ,but not relevant to the points I made.
That's having power over sin to forgive it for someone who did not directly do it to Him. Only God can do that.
See above

Jesus accepted worship. Not just like a servant to a king..but from those I'm high places. That's another clue to His full diety.
Yes He is the Son of God!

He was fully man also.. as you say so was limited in ways..but that's voluntarily self limiting.

John 10:18
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

not that He couldnt operate fully as God, but chose the right time by the Father's will.
Acts 10:38
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

His miracles were not performed as Him operating "fully as God".

Jesus was tempted..but He didn't sin. He felt pain but not because He was sinful.
I never implied He did sin in fact I said the opposite.
 
Yes ,but not relevant to the points I made.

See above


Yes He is the Son of God!



John 10:18
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.


Acts 10:38
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

His miracles were not performed as Him operating "fully as God".


I never implied He did sin in fact I said the opposite.
I would just say that Jesus is not inferior..or ever was inferior to the Father.

Son as in 'image' 'expression'.. not 'born out of' lesser

Son as in supreme heir

Equal to the Father
 
I would just say that Jesus is not inferior..or ever was inferior to the Father.

Son as in 'image' 'expression'.. not 'born out of' lesser

Son as in supreme heir

Equal to the Father
I never implied Jesus was “inferior” in any way. He came to earth in flesh because that was God’s plan. When the apostles and OTHERS performed miracles they did it through the anointing “Gifts” of the Spirit the same as Jesus did. Why did Jesus say:
John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. This doctrine to remove the supernatural power of the Spirit from the church is not scriptural! Why has no one even addressed the testimony given in the video I posted? Could it just be there is no real way to refute the words of these God fearing ladies who lived in the miraculous. I remember Mom Kelton telling of the time she drove her car home with no gas only powered by the Spirit of God. Her son had a book on Amazon at one time I’ll see if it is still there and post a link if I can find it. It is full of stories of thier amazing life with God.
 
Last edited:
From Got Questions

Cessationism is the view that the “miracle gifts” of tongues and healing have ceased—that the end of the apostolic age brought about a cessation of the miracles associated with that age. Most cessationists believe that, while God can and still does perform miracles today, the Holy Spirit no longer uses individuals to perform miraculous signs.

The biblical record shows that miracles occurred during particular periods for the specific purpose of authenticating a new message from God. Moses was enabled to perform miracles to authenticate his ministry before Pharaoh (Exodus 4:1-8). Elijah was given miracles to authenticate his ministry before Ahab (1 Kings 17:1; 18:24). The apostles were given miracles to authenticate their ministry before Israel (Acts 4:10, 16).

Jesus’ ministry was also marked by miracles, which the Apostle John calls “signs” (John 2:11). John’s point is that the miracles were proofs of the authenticity of Jesus’ message.

After Jesus’ resurrection, as the Church was being established and the New Testament was being written, the apostles demonstrated “signs” such as tongues and the power to heal. “Tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not” (1 Corinthians 14:22, a verse that plainly says the gift was never intended to edify the church).

The Apostle Paul predicted that the gift of tongues would cease (1 Corinthians 13:8). Here are six proofs that it has already ceased:

1) The apostles, through whom tongues came, were unique in the history of the church. Once their ministry was accomplished, the need for authenticating signs ceased to exist.

2) The miracle (or sign) gifts are only mentioned in the earliest epistles, such as 1 Corinthians. Later books, such as Ephesians and Romans, contain detailed passages on the gifts of the Spirit, but the miracle gifts are not mentioned, although Romans does mention the gift of prophecy. The Greek word translated “prophecy” means “speaking forth” and does not necessarily include prediction of the future.

3) The gift of tongues was a sign to unbelieving Israel that God’s salvation was now available to other nations. See 1 Corinthians 14:21-22 and Isaiah 28:11-12.

4) Tongues was an inferior gift to prophecy (preaching). Preaching the Word of God edifies believers, whereas tongues does not. Believers are told to seek prophesying over speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:1-3).

5) History indicates that tongues did cease. Tongues are not mentioned at all by the Post-Apostolic Fathers. Other writers such as Justin Martyr, Origen, Chrysostom, and Augustine considered tongues something that happened only in the earliest days of the Church.

6) There are indications that the gift of tongues has ceased. If the gift were still available today, there would be no need for missionaries to attend language school. Missionaries would be able to travel to any country and miraculously speak any language fluently, just as the apostles were able to in Acts 2. As for the gift of healing, we see in Scripture that healing was primarily associated with the ministry of Jesus and the apostles (Luke 9:1-2). And we see that as the era of the apostles drew to a close, healing, like tongues, became less frequent. The Apostle Paul, who raised Eutychus from the dead (Acts 20:9-12), did not heal Epaphroditus (Philippians 2:25-27), Trophimus (2 Timothy 4:20), Timothy (1 Timothy 5:23), or even himself (2 Corinthians 12:7-9). The reasons for Paul’s “failures to heal” are 1) the gift was never intended to make every Christian well, but to authenticate apostleship (2 Corinthians 2:12; Hebrews 2:4); and 2) the authority of the apostles had been sufficiently demonstrated.

The reasons stated above are reasons cessationists believe the miraculous sign gifts have ceased. It is important to remember, though, that cessationists believe God still continues to work through the other gifts of the Spirit. According to 1 Corinthians 13:13-14:1, we would do well to “pursue love,” the greatest gift of all. If we are to desire gifts, we should desire to speak forth the Word of God, that all may be edified.

Do you agree or disagree, why or why not ?
Translation: "MY PRELIGIOUS PARADIGM" doesn't believe that the "Spirituals" are for today. I can't manifest any of them, and I don't want YOU to either.
 
Translation: "MY PRELIGIOUS PARADIGM" doesn't believe that the "Spirituals" are for today. I can't manifest any of them, and I don't want YOU to either.
no just the "individual" sign gifts. :) which do not build up the body.

lots of spiritual gifts remain for building up the body until we all attain the unity in Christ.
 
Cessationism is the view that the “miracle gifts” of tongues and healing have ceased—that the end of the apostolic age brought about a cessation of the miracles associated with that age. Most cessationists believe that, while God can and still does perform miracles today, the Holy Spirit no longer uses individuals to perform miraculous signs.
Have seen things I can't unsee.
2) The miracle (or sign) gifts are only mentioned in the earliest epistles, such as 1 Corinthians. Later books, such as Ephesians and Romans, contain detailed passages on the gifts of the Spirit, but the miracle gifts are not mentioned, although Romans does mention the gift of prophecy. The Greek word translated “prophecy” means “speaking forth” and does not necessarily include prediction of the future.
This is an argument from silence. The epistles are very circumstance specific. The only reason we even know of tongue speaking in the corporate body of Christ in 1 Corinthians is because it was being abused. Paul was addressing abuses of the gift. Without those abuses, we wouldn't even have those passages in Scripture. Do you know how many things in the NT only have single mentions? Answer: lots. Because Paul is addressing very specific circumstances in different churches. The fruits of the Spirit are only mentioned in Galatians (an early Pauline epistle), not in later epistles. Does that mean the fruits of the Spirit ceased to be?

Also, prophecy does not = preaching, which there is a different Greek word for. But I think you're right, NT prophecy isn't mainly about end time predictions, but spontaneous thoughts the Holy Spirit brings to mind--usually knowledge about someone else that one couldn't possibly know on their own.
4) Tongues was an inferior gift to prophecy (preaching). Preaching the Word of God edifies believers, whereas tongues does not. Believers are told to seek prophesying over speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:1-3).
Not true, actually. No gift is superior to another. Prophesy is not intrinsically better than tongues. Paul is referring to corporate worship. Prophesy is superior in the context of corporate worship than tongues "unless" (people always miss the "unless" in 1 Corinthians 14)---"unless there is interpretation of the tongues."

6) There are indications that the gift of tongues has ceased. If the gift were still available today, there would be no need for missionaries to attend language school
Tongue speaking is not limited to the use in Acts 2. Look at Acts 10, when Cornelius was speaking in tongues but not witnessing to anyone. 1 Corinthians 14.2 makes clear that the gift of tongue is also for private prayer between the person and God.
The Apostle Paul predicted that the gift of tongues would cease (1 Corinthians 13:8).
Yes, when the "perfect" comes, which is a reference to either Christ's Second Coming or when we are face to face in God's Presence.

*Bottom line: Scripture does not expressly teach that the signs gifts or tongues or prophecy have ceased.

Also, please consider Acts 2, how we've been in the "last days" since the Day of Pentecost:

And as Peter said in Acts 2.16-21, the promised Holy Spirit is what was prophesied by Joel that in "the last days, God says I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams."

It doesn't make sense for the "last days" to start back on the Day of Pentecost and then for that to change. There is no Scripture that says God will pour out His Spirit in the last days (including prophecy, visions, dreams), but then take the Spirit back in the "last, 'last days'," and then pour out the Spirit again.

16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Blessings
 
Last edited:
Have seen things I can't unsee.

This is an argument from silence. The epistles are very circumstance specific. The only reason we even know of tongue speaking in the corporate body of Christ in 1 Corinthians is because it was being abused. Paul was addressing abuses of the gift. Without those abuses, we wouldn't even have those passages in Scripture. Do you know how many things in the NT only have single mentions? Answer: lots. Because Paul is addressing very specific circumstances in different churches. The fruits of the Spirit are only mentioned in Galatians (an early Pauline epistle), not in later epistles. Does that mean the fruits of the Spirit ceased to be?

Also, prophecy does not = preaching, which there is a different Greek word for. But I think you're right, NT prophecy isn't mainly about end time predictions, but spontaneous thoughts the Holy Spirit brings to mind--usually knowledge about someone else that one couldn't possibly know on their own.

Not true, actually. No gift is superior to another. Prophesy is not intrinsically better than tongues. Paul is referring to corporate worship. Prophesy is superior in the context of corporate worship than tongues "unless" (people always miss the "unless" in 1 Corinthians 14)---"unless there is interpretation of the tongues."


Tongue speaking is not limited to the use in Acts 2. Look at Acts 10, when Cornelius was speaking in tongues but not witnessing to anyone. 1 Corinthians 14.2 makes clear that the gift of tongue is also for private prayer between the person and God.

Yes, when the "perfect" comes, which is a reference to either Christ's Second Coming or when we are face to face in God's Presence.

*Bottom line: Scripture does not expressly teach that the signs gifts or tongues or prophecy have ceased.

Also, please consider Acts 2, how we've been in the "last days" since the Day of Pentecost:

And as Peter said in Acts 2.16-21, the promised Holy Spirit is what was prophesied by Joel that in "the last days, God says I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams."

It doesn't make sense for the "last days" to start back on the Day of Pentecost and then for that to change. There is no Scripture that says God will pour out His Spirit in the last days (including prophecy, visions, dreams), but then take the Spirit back in the "last, 'last days'," and then pour out the Spirit again.

16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Blessings
Well said. A lot here that cannot be scripturally refuted.
 
no just the "individual" sign gifts. :) which do not build up the body.
Not a scriptural position. 1 Corinthians 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
 
no just the "individual" sign gifts. :) which do not build up the body.

lots of spiritual gifts remain for building up the body until we all attain the unity in Christ.
"Sign Gifts" is nothing but another "Theological assumption".
 
Cessationists don't claim miracles and healings have completely stopped, but the giving of the gifts of prophecy tongues and knowledge plus the gift of healing has passed.
Because they can't do it, they don't understand it, and they're dead-set against any evidence that they might be wrong. Just typical "Theology" at work.
 
Because they can't do it, they don't understand it, and they're dead-set against any evidence that they might be wrong. Just typical "Theology" at work.
I think charismatic excesses and abuses have played a part too
 
I think charismatic excesses and abuses have played a part too
There is truth in your statement but scripture is not interpreted by what men do.

Because there are fake so called "healers" that fact has no bearing on what scripture actually says. There are false teachers, false prophets, fake Christians, phony pastors and evangelist, and false tongues but none of that changes or interprets Gods written word.

In fact satan tries to confuse the church with deception and many times accomplishes his goal. It is our job to see that does not happen but throwing the baby out with the bath water so to speak is not the solution. Expose the bad and show the good, but many times when discussing the gifts it appears to many just throwing it all out is the way to go.
 
There is truth in your statement but scripture is not interpreted by what men do.

Because there are fake so called "healers" that fact has no bearing on what scripture actually says. There are false teachers, false prophets, fake Christians, phony pastors and evangelist, and false tongues but none of that changes or interprets Gods written word.

In fact satan tries to confuse the church with deception and many times accomplishes his goal. It is our job to see that does not happen but throwing the baby out with the bath water so to speak is not the solution. Expose the bad and show the good, but many times when discussing the gifts it appears to many just throwing it all out is the way to go.
But it affects people negatively
 
Back
Top