Cessationism what has ceased to exist in the church ?

[Wordsmith]

But it affects people negatively

Romans 12:21
Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

 

[TB2]

Romans 12:21
Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

My point is that Christ's followers need to do a better job of following Christ. Lead by example. Of course, I also agree with you that we can't let what others do affect what we know Scripture to say. That works for you and me, but unfortunately not a lot of others who judge more by the bad examples set by adherents

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I think charismatic excesses and abuses have played a part too

When you don't want to bother with something, you can ALWAYS find "reinforcement" for your opinions.

Are some "Charismatic" ministries phony as a $3 BILL. BOY HOWDY!!! are they ever.

 

[TB2]

When you don't want to bother with something, you can ALWAYS find "reinforcement" for your opinions.

Are some "Charismatic" ministries phony as a $3 BILL. BOY HOWDY!!! are they ever.

True and people often base their judgments on the behavior of representatives. I think that's what @Wordsmith is getting at that we need to always base on what Scripture says

 

[Rockerduck]

I've been with groups who healed people, and I and my wife have prayed for people and healed them.

 

[360watt]

I've been with groups who healed people, and I and my wife have prayed for people and healed them.

Right. And obviously God can and still does heal.

In what has ceased... It is not God's ability to do His Will ..to heal and work miracles. It would be blasphemous to say this.

What has ceased is the gifts of signs, knowledge and tongues...and also the gift of miracles plus some others...but these are gifts ...not the ability of God to answer our prayers and do His Will.

So .. healing still happens and miracles can happen.

They would be just for particular purposes and teaching..as they were for the apostles and disciples.

Cessationism does not mean God no longer heals or works miracles, but has put away the tools to establish early Christianity.

 

[Wordsmith]

What has ceased is the gifts of signs, knowledge and tongues...and also the gift of miracles plus some others.

This is false and is taught nowhere in scripture.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

The above passage is not a smoking gun proof text.
These things shall cease (future) not past as in already ceased.
There is no scriptural way to tie that which is perfect to the completed canon of scripture.

! Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

God set these in the church, the church is still here. There is no scriptural way to say these gifts were only for the 12 Apostles.

These have been active throughout church history and are still active in churches that allow them to operate.

Multitudes have benefited from the gifts of The Spirit and testify to the same.

Nothing in scripture says the purpose of the gifts was to establish Christianity.

Below is the scriptural reason for the gifts in the church!

1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

 

[360watt]

This is false and is taught nowhere in scripture.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

The above passage is not a smoking gun proof text.
These things shall cease (future) not past as in already ceased.
There is no scriptural way to tie that which is perfect to the completed canon of scripture.

! Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

God set these in the church, the church is still here. There is no scriptural way to say these gifts were only for the 12 Apostles.

These have been active throughout church history and are still active in churches that allow them to operate.

Multitudes have benefited from the gifts of The Spirit and testify to the same.

Nothing in scripture says the purpose of the gifts was to establish Christianity.

Below is the scriptural reason for the gifts in the church!

1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

The cessation point is from the point of writing to a point of the future from there. Not that the gifts ceased before what was written.

But this is really about what the purpose was for the gifts of Spirit. When that is established, then it becomes clear what causes cessation.

Plus 1 co 13 is not the proof text for cessation. On its own it is not completely comprehensive. There are several others lines of reason why cessation is at the point of the death of the apostles, completion of the canon and destruction of the Jewish temple.

 

[Wordsmith]

Plus 1 co 13 is not the proof text for cessation. On its own it is not completely comprehensive. There are several others lines of reason why cessation is at the point of the death of the apostles, completion of the canon and destruction of the Jewish temple.

Ok , so explain!

 

[360watt]

Ok , so explain!

Right, another line of support is that as you go through I'm Chronological order in the New Testament, the mention of the sign gifts gets less and less. You also find the likes of Paul not recommending healing thru the gifts but using medicine. There is also Paul himself carrying an infirmity...his thorn in the flesh that was never reported to be healed.

That is one part of it.

Another is when you compare what the gifts were like then, compared the what we are doing with them now. For eg..the guidelines for practicing them in 1 co 12-14 .. I've never seen a church actually go by them. So they indicates God isn't using them because it would be alot more obvious and clear than what is supposed to be tongues and prophecy now. Also you have the purpose of tongues as a sign for the Jews.. and it isn't used for that now. At Corinth there is a difference in the way the gifts operate but doesn't seem a change in purpose.



Another line of reasoning is what the qualifications are for an apostle..and the fact that no one now meets those. For eg..an eyewitness of Jesus..or close association with that person.

But the best explanation I've seen us from Benjamin Warfield on this. He did a very in-depth treatise on this.

 

[Wordsmith]

Right, another line of support is that as you go through I'm Chronological order in the New Testament, the mention of the sign gifts gets less and less.

This proves nothing! The marriage supper of the Lamb is scarcely mentioned but widely accepted

You also find the likes of Paul not recommending healing thru the gifts but using medicine.

Timothy 5:23
Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

Did you consider the possibility the water was tainted and there was not a need for a healing but only to eliminate the water for a season. I think from this text it is a huge leap and error to say he could not be healed and needed medicine instead.

There is also Paul himself carrying an infirmity...his thorn in the flesh that was never reported to be healed.

Not so!

2 Timothy 3:11
Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.

Plus the fact that Paul never said sickness was one of his issues. Infirmity does not always mean sickness it also means weakness. Paul actually listed of of his infirmities.


2 Corinthians 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.

24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.

25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep;

26 In journeyings often, in perils of waters, in perils of robbers, in perils by mine own countrymen, in perils by the heathen, in perils in the city, in perils in the wilderness, in perils in the sea, in perils among false brethren;

27 In weariness and painfulness, in watchings often, in hunger and thirst, in fastings often, in cold and nakedness.

28 Beside those things that are without, that which cometh upon me daily, the care of all the churches.

29 Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?

30 If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.

Paul just listed all of his infirmities and not one was sickness.

"Paul's Thorn" is misused and misrepresented to support a false narrative!

That is one part of it.

Another is when you compare what the gifts were like then, compared the what we are doing with them now. For eg..the guidelines for practicing them in 1 co 12-14 .. I've never seen a church actually go by them.

Not proof of anything except that you have not witnessed their proper use. I have been healed through the operation of the gifts used properly and mans doctrine will never change that fact for me.

So they indicates God isn't using them because it would be alot more obvious and clear than what is supposed to be tongues and prophecy now.

Misuses will occur, Paul pointed that out. We do not throw out the baby with the bath water here. Because some are fakes and some go about things in an unscriptural manor only proves that THEY are wrong.

Also you have the purpose of tongues as a sign for the Jews..

Not the only purpose mentioned in scripture. This is another argument misused.

and it isn't used for that now. At Corinth there is a difference in the way the gifts operate but doesn't seem a change in purpose.

See above.

Another line of reasoning is what the qualifications are for an apostle..and the fact that no one now meets those. For eg..an eyewitness of Jesus..or close association with that person.

Yes Apostles were used in the gifts BUT in scripture the gifts were not limited to apostles!

But the best explanation I've seen us from Benjamin Warfield on this. He did a very in-depth treatise on this.

I've read many rebuttals none of them work for me. I've been told I wasn't really healed, others said the healing was of evil origin. This does not work on me.

God placed the gifts in the church and in all too many cases the doctrines of men have removed them not God.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Right. And obviously God can and still does heal.

In what has ceased... It is not God's ability to do His Will ..to heal and work miracles. It would be blasphemous to say this.

What has ceased is the gifts of signs,

What gives you the right to pontificate different "Ranks" of Gifts??? The Holy Spirit has ALL Giftings (CHarisma), and he's completely free to distribute them in the Body according to need. YOU SERIOUSLY BELIEVE that the "Body of Christ has no need on "Knowledge", "Wisdom", or miracles???!!! And you feel capable of establishing "Rules" about when God is allowed to empower his people??

knowledge and tongues...and also the gift of miracles plus some others...but these are gifts ...not the ability of God to answer our prayers and do His Will.

So .. healing still happens and miracles can happen.

They would be just for particular purposes and teaching..as they were for the apostles and disciples.

Cessationism does not mean God no longer heals or works miracles, but has put away the tools to establish early Christianity.

And what makes you think in view of the theological CHAOS in Christiendom, that "real Christianity" in the 21st century has any LESS NEED of being "established" in 2023 than it did in 53???

 

[360watt]

What gives you the right to pontificate different "Ranks" of Gifts??? The Holy Spirit has ALL Giftings (CHarisma), and he's completely free to distribute them in the Body according to need. YOU SERIOUSLY BELIEVE that the "Body of Christ has no need on "Knowledge", "Wisdom", or miracles???!!! And you feel capable of establishing "Rules" about when God is allowed to empower his people??

And what makes you think in view of the theological CHAOS in Christiendom, that "real Christianity" in the 21st century has any LESS NEED of being "established" in 2023 than it did in 53???

We have the complete NT to use as our guide now... So the need for the miraculous is not as it was in the early churches. The apostles and others needed the miraculous to show they had God's authority and power behind them.

Today, the authority is in God's written Word. God obviously could do miracles now but the need for the miraculous isn't as it was then.

Yeah there is chaos around world at this time, but seeking for signs and miracles when we've got God's Word with us is an uncertain faith.

Plus I'm not making these as rules myself. It's looking at scripture alone .

 

[Wordsmith]

We have the complete NT to use as our guide now...

It is our guide and it says:

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

You cannot use the same Bible that says God gave these gifts to the church to remove them

So the need for the miraculous is not as it was in the early churches. The apostles and others needed the miraculous to show they had God's authority and power behind them.

This is a totally one-sided view. Yes miracles show God's power, but to claim that is the only reason for miracles misses the whole love and mercy side of God.

The way many who believe as you do present this totally discounts the fact that, a person suffering with cancer needs a miracle because they need a miracle not because the want to see if God still has the power to do it, or to give God a chance to show off.

Today, the authority is in God's written Word. God obviously could do miracles now but the need for the miraculous isn't as it was then.

This is absurd! In life there is always a need for miracles. There were times when Jesus healed someone and said tell no-one. Jesus was compassionate not a show off.

Yeah there is chaos around world at this time, but seeking for signs and miracles when we've got God's Word with us is an uncertain faith.

This absolutely is a tried and true talking point for Cessationism. Most desperate people who need a miracle of any kind are not "seeking a sign" they truly need help from a merciful God.
Yes we have God's word and it teaches God puts gifts in the church for our benefit and it baffles me why so many are so opposed to letting God work and be real in our lives.

Plus I'm not making these as rules myself. It's looking at scripture alone .

There are no rules for God when it come to showing mercy and help for His children.
My former pastors wife was born without eyeballs in the socket and God gave her two beautiful eyes. God was not showing off He was answering the desperate prayers of a sorrowful mother who loved her child. Thats mercy and love not some selfish mother "seeking a sign".

It appears you and all others who take this view are making up rules.

Psalm 78:40-42​

40 How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, and grieve him in the desert!
41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.
42 They remembered not his hand, nor the day when he delivered them from the enemy.

Matthew 13:58
And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

From Got Questions

Cessationism is the view that the “miracle gifts” of tongues and healing have ceased—that the end of the apostolic age brought about a cessation of the miracles associated with that age. Most cessationists believe that, while God can and still does perform miracles today, the Holy Spirit no longer uses individuals to perform miraculous signs.

The biblical record shows that miracles occurred during particular periods for the specific purpose of authenticating a new message from God. Moses was enabled to perform miracles to authenticate his ministry before Pharaoh (Exodus 4:1-8). Elijah was given miracles to authenticate his ministry before Ahab (1 Kings 17:1; 18:24). The apostles were given miracles to authenticate their ministry before Israel (Acts 4:10, 16).

Jesus’ ministry was also marked by miracles, which the Apostle John calls “signs” (John 2:11). John’s point is that the miracles were proofs of the authenticity of Jesus’ message.

After Jesus’ resurrection, as the Church was being established and the New Testament was being written, the apostles demonstrated “signs” such as tongues and the power to heal. “Tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not” (1 Corinthians 14:22, a verse that plainly says the gift was never intended to edify the church).

The Apostle Paul predicted that the gift of tongues would cease (1 Corinthians 13:8). Here are six proofs that it has already ceased:

1) The apostles, through whom tongues came, were unique in the history of the church. Once their ministry was accomplished, the need for authenticating signs ceased to exist.

2) The miracle (or sign) gifts are only mentioned in the earliest epistles, such as 1 Corinthians. Later books, such as Ephesians and Romans, contain detailed passages on the gifts of the Spirit, but the miracle gifts are not mentioned, although Romans does mention the gift of prophecy. The Greek word translated “prophecy” means “speaking forth” and does not necessarily include prediction of the future.

3) The gift of tongues was a sign to unbelieving Israel that God’s salvation was now available to other nations. See 1 Corinthians 14:21-22 and Isaiah 28:11-12.

4) Tongues was an inferior gift to prophecy (preaching). Preaching the Word of God edifies believers, whereas tongues does not. Believers are told to seek prophesying over speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:1-3).

5) History indicates that tongues did cease. Tongues are not mentioned at all by the Post-Apostolic Fathers. Other writers such as Justin Martyr, Origen, Chrysostom, and Augustine considered tongues something that happened only in the earliest days of the Church.

6) There are indications that the gift of tongues has ceased. If the gift were still available today, there would be no need for missionaries to attend language school. Missionaries would be able to travel to any country and miraculously speak any language fluently, just as the apostles were able to in Acts 2. As for the gift of healing, we see in Scripture that healing was primarily associated with the ministry of Jesus and the apostles (Luke 9:1-2). And we see that as the era of the apostles drew to a close, healing, like tongues, became less frequent. The Apostle Paul, who raised Eutychus from the dead (Acts 20:9-12), did not heal Epaphroditus (Philippians 2:25-27), Trophimus (2 Timothy 4:20), Timothy (1 Timothy 5:23), or even himself (2 Corinthians 12:7-9). The reasons for Paul’s “failures to heal” are 1) the gift was never intended to make every Christian well, but to authenticate apostleship (2 Corinthians 2:12; Hebrews 2:4); and 2) the authority of the apostles had been sufficiently demonstrated.

The reasons stated above are reasons cessationists believe the miraculous sign gifts have ceased. It is important to remember, though, that cessationists believe God still continues to work through the other gifts of the Spirit. According to 1 Corinthians 13:13-14:1, we would do well to “pursue love,” the greatest gift of all. If we are to desire gifts, we should desire to speak forth the Word of God, that all may be edified.

Do you agree or disagree, why or why not ?

I disagree more than I agree.

The Pentecostal movement is a movement which believes in a restoration of the gifts which had previously ceased.

But really, my disagreement is based on me knowing someone who received the gift of a tongue.

-Jarrod

 

[Bob Carabbio]

We have the complete NT to use as our guide now... So the need for the miraculous is not as it was in the early churches. The apostles and others needed the miraculous to show they had God's authority and power behind them.

Just like we need today. What makes you think that "CHRISTIANITY" is any more "Established" in 2023 than it was in 50.

Today, the authority is in God's written Word. God obviously could do miracles now but the need for the miraculous isn't as it was then.

According to the "visible church systems" which demonstrate their POWLESSNESS every day, make excuses for it, and vehemently oppose anybody that says different.

Yeah there is chaos around world at this time, but seeking for signs and miracles when we've got God's Word with us is an uncertain faith.

And we ignore what God's Word says, in favor of our "Precious Definitive Doctrines"

Plus I'm not making these as rules myself. It's looking at scripture alone .

Through the interpretation of whatever "Visible church system" you've been indoctrinated by.

 

[360watt]

Just like we need today. What makes you think that "CHRISTIANITY" is any more "Established" in 2023 than it was in 50.

According to the "visible church systems" which demonstrate their POWLESSNESS every day, make excuses for it, and vehemently oppose anybody that says different.

And we ignore what God's Word says, in favor of our "Precious Definitive Doctrines"

Through the interpretation of whatever "Visible church system" you've been indoctrinated by.

Ummmm.. not sure what you mean by 'visible church system'... that is exactly what Jerusalem, Ephesus, Phillipi, Corinth etc.. were..

I think you must mean a particular denomination of churches.

Anyway, so the main argument going on here is.. I'm claiming some of the gifts have ceased. Particulary focussed on tongues, knowledge and prophecy.

Most of the argument coming against mine... is that because the gifts I am claiming have ceased........ are being encouraged to pursue, by God, through Paul, in the likes of Corinthians. So then that makes me wrong.

This argument isn't taking into account the 2000 odd years between the writing of Paul's letters and now.. and things that transpired since then that affect the gifts. Paul was writing to the Corinthians, there and then.. not directly to us now.

Nothing in the NT has ceased if there is nothing in the future from Paul and co.. writing that affects the way they function. So, of course most of the NT does apply to us now.. because there is nothing to indicate what that is .. is actually limited. But there are things that happened since the writing of Paul that do affect that giving of the gifts.. especially the sign gifts.

So.. things like being able to handle snakes and not get poisoned. That is in the NT.. but is that encouraged for believers today to do now?

The custom of foot washing.. that's in the NT.. but is that encouraged for believers to do now?

God has dealt in different ways over time with people. Not everything that applied then.. applies now. That is just reading right context.

But anyway.. that is enough from me. I don't need to convince anyone. We can agree to disagree.

 

[Wordsmith]

Anyway, so the main argument going on here is.. I'm claiming some of the gifts have ceased. Particulary focussed on tongues, knowledge and prophecy.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

The above verse seems to be the main ammunition for the Cessastionist argument. Some say all of the gifts have ceased some as the quote above focus on three.

Some take the view prophecy in this context is present day preaching and allow it to stay. Most don't even address what the gift of knowledge is in this context.

Most cessastionist allow God to heal as He wills but will never call it a "gift of healing". Most jump to the unscriptural argument if you have the gift of healing then go clean out the hospitals, which is absurd and shows ignorance of what the scriptures says about the gifts.

The real problem with most who take this view is tongues! There seems to be an all out assault of the the gift of tongues.

Then we have argument that there is no longer any need for the gifts because we have scripture. This is also absurd.

1. If you are sick you need healing.

2. If you are faced with a tough situation in life you may need for God the give you wisdom that only He can give. You can't find a verse in scripture to give you specifics on every possible situation that can arise in your life.

3. If you are about the be faced with a situation that could affect your well being that without a supernatural revelation from God could cause you great harm. A warning from God for you to not do this or do that is a word of knowledge. You cannot find a verse for that in the completed cannon. I was given a word of knowledge by an evangelist before I was healed. God revealed to him what I needed when the evangelist did not know me had never met me and no human being on the planet knew of my condition. That was a word of knowledge from the Lord and this has not ceased.

4. Tongues, now here is the real problem for many. Many shout tongues are for a sign and we no longer need any signs we have scripture! This is an argument from ignorance on what is taught in. scripture. Paul said:

1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

1 Corinthians 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Tongues can be a sign but that is not all that is taught about tongues.

5. Since many have removed tongues from scripture there is no need to deal with "the interpretation of tongues".

6. Since some on the forum in error have eliminated demons or evils spirits from existence in our day, to them "discerning of spirits" is no longer needed. I assure evil spirits (demons) are real and at work in our world today and if you are ever faced with dealing with one you with you will need this gift as well as other gifts to survive the encounter unscathed.

7. Some declare we not longer need the gift of miracles. What can I say except just read your Bible God has always been and always will be a God of miracles.

8. The gift of faith, every born again child of God has faith but not all have faith to move mountains that comes from God when you need it, you just can't conjure it up at will.

9. Prophecy does not have to always be revealing the future but I many time is. This is the toughest one for cessastionist to remove if they actually read the scriptures.

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

The above passage started in Acts 2 and will continue until "the great and notable day fo the Lord comes".

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Ummmm.. not sure what you mean by 'visible church system'

The Church Denominational systems that are Visible on earth - like "First Baptist Church" down on the corner, or "St. Agaha's Catholic Church" downtown. The genuine CHurch that Jesus founded is comprised entirely of ALL Born Again Christians, both physically alive, and physically dead from the beginning of the creation.

Anyway, so the main argument going on here is.. I'm claiming some of the gifts have ceased. Particulary focussed on tongues, knowledge and prophecy.

Which is a FALSE pontification.

So.. things like being able to handle snakes and not get poisoned. That is in the NT.. but is that encouraged for believers today to do now?

It was NEVER "encouraged" at all.

The custom of foot washing.. that's in the NT.. but is that encouraged for believers to do now?

Denominationally dependent. Some Groups still practice foot-washing.

I don't need to convince anyone. We can agree to disagree.

True, "Convincing people" is the Holy SPirit's function.