Tongues in the NT Church

[Bob Carabbio]

No all the spiritual unseen gifts still apply except for no new revelations we have the prfect.

Except that it's NOT "Perfect" since there are error in it.

What make you think I am Cessationist ?

What you post.

What is it you think I am ceasing ?

The "Gifts" - "tongues" in particular.

 

[Arial]

The "Gifts" - "tongues" in particular.

Cessationists do not say all the gifts to the church have ceased. Only the ones that are no longer needed. Tongues, new revelation, healings, miracles. They were needed in the NT era as the church was being established and for various reasons. Tongues because many different languages were spoken in the areas where Jesus was sending His apostles to preach the good news, and as evidence that this salvation was going to all nations, not just Israel.

New revelation because we now have in our NT the revelation that the apostles brought concerning Christ, interpreting what was not fully revealed in the OT, and could not be until the coming of Christ, His death, resurrection, and ascension. The prophets in the post apostolic era do not bring new revelation, but the word prophecy is speaking forth God's word that is already given and expounding on its meaning and application.

Healings and miracles because their purpose in the NT era was authenticating Christ's appointment of the apostles and the truth of what they were teaching---just as they authenticated Christ as the Son of God. We now have that evidence in our Bibles. And there is no evidence that healing and miracles (the with power) was given to any but the apostles.

They have been termed "sign gifts" to distinguish them from the other gifts because they were signs of authentication and purpose that have now been fulfilled and recorded in our Bible for us. We do not need these signs anymore. And that is not to say that there are never anymore miracles, or that there is never anymore healing. We should always ask God for what we need for He is the only one that can give it. And even healing through medical procedures is from God through that means. But these "sign gifts" are not meant to be the norm in the church.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Cessationists do not say all the gifts to the church have ceased.

Only the ones they don't like, and can't minister in.

Only the ones that are no longer needed. Tongues, new revelation, healings, miracles.

What Possible use would we have for physical healing, a Word of Wisdom, or a miracle (chuckle!!) - particularly if you happen to be a missionary??

They have been termed "sign gifts"

Because the "Church" had to create an excuse for not bothering with them. "Theology" in action.

But these "sign gifts" are not meant to be the norm in the church.

No GIFT (Spiritual) is any more a "Sign" than any other. that's just a phony classification to

 

[Arial]

Only the ones they don't like, and can't minister in.

I gave you the reasons and they are Bible based so there is no reason to make the above false accusation.

What Possible use would we have for physical healing, a Word of Wisdom, or a miracle (chuckle!!) - particularly if you happen to be a missionary??

I never said anything about a word of wisdom, though the charismatics misuse what that means also, folding it into the other unbiblical things they teach instead of the word. Missionaries are supposed to be trusting in the written word to do its work by the power of God, not displays and personal experiences. Also I never said there were no more healings---respond according to what is posted, not straw man fallacies----I said it was not the norm and wasn't even in the NT era.

Because the "Church" had to create an excuse for not bothering with them. "Theology" in action.

You constantly impugn theology as though it were a bad thing, when in fact it is the first and most important thing----the study of God from which all else should come. In the above statement, you support your need for signs and wonders by imposing a completely unfounded and unsupported functioning of people's minds (knowing what is in them) as your argument. Do you know what that does? Nothing but discredit what you say.

 

[Mr GLee]

Except that it's NOT "Perfect" since there are error in it.

What you post.

The "Gifts" - "tongues" in particular.

Tongues is prophecy .

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Tongues is prophecy .

Only when it's interpreted, OR understood by the hearers. It's essentially (like all spoken gifts) a prophetic word.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I gave you the reasons and they are Bible based so there is no reason to make the above false accusation.

I never said anything about a word of wisdom, though the charismatics misuse what that means also, folding it into the other unbiblical things they teach instead of the word. Missionaries are supposed to be trusting in the written word to do its work by the power of God, not displays and personal experiences. Also I never said there were no more healings---respond according to what is posted, not straw man fallacies----I said it was not the norm and wasn't even in the NT era.

You constantly impugn theology as though it were a bad thing, when in fact it is the first and most important thing----the study of God from which all else should come. In the above statement, you support your need for signs and wonders by imposing a completely unfounded and unsupported functioning of people's minds (knowing what is in them) as your argument. Do you know what that does? Nothing but discredit what you say.

But obviously, since I'm a Charismatic/Pentecostal, nothing I say carries any weight here anyway. That's O.K.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

You constantly impugn theology as though it were a bad thing,

And in many cases it IS a bad thing. "Theology" was why the Jews wanted to murder Jesus, and "Theology" is why Roman Catholics follow the PAGAN Traditions that they do.

when in fact it is the first and most important thing----the study of God from which all else should come.

Except we both know it doesn't necessarily get on anywhere near the TRUTH.

In the above statement, you support your need for signs and wonders

Total foolishness.

ALTHOUGH - as I've mentioned before when I was Born again, a miracle happened immediately when I was no longer a smoker after 6-7 years of 3 packs a day. no withdrawal, no craving, NOTHING - I just didn't smoke the next morning (More to that story). if there was any DOUBT that things were different, that was a strong "sign" that I wasn't in Kansas any more -

As has been pointed out here, when you see God's hand in a few things, pretty soon you se HIM in everything.

 

[Arial]

And in many cases it IS a bad thing. "Theology" was why the Jews wanted to murder Jesus, and "Theology" is why Roman Catholics follow the PAGAN Traditions that they do.

That is bad theology, not proper theology based on God's self revelation, and is a red herring and a false dichotomy. I does not make theology itself a bad thing.

Except we both know it doesn't necessarily get on anywhere near the TRUTH.

That is irrelevant and not a reason to impugn theology or neglect it.

Total foolishness.

ALTHOUGH - as I've mentioned before when I was Born again, a miracle happened immediately when I was no longer a smoker after 6-7 years of 3 packs a day. no withdrawal, no craving, NOTHING - I just didn't smoke the next morning (More to that story). if there was any DOUBT that things were different, that was a strong "sign" that I wasn't in Kansas any more -

You say my statement that you have a need for signs and wonders as total foolishness, then give one as your evidence.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

That was how tongues in the church today really began. The history and names have escaped my memory but I can revisit my sources if you want the who, what, where, when, and why of it. It separated the indwelling of the Holy Spirit of all believers with a secondary baptism of the Holy Spirit with speaking in tongues. It was said this would lead to perfection and as that never happened for anyone except by claim, it morphed into more an ability given to grow in faith. And mutated some more into increased power.

The pastor I was under, and is often claimed, when people are prayed over to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and before they are in order to incite a reaction, is to say you just have to start making sounds, and with practice we become more fluent. Even just a groan they will say. This is all based on emotion and fueled by it. But yes, what you say above is the same thing that is often used when a person with the "gift of healing" speaks over someone and they aren't healed. "You must not have enough faith." of "You have unrepentant sin in your life." Unfortunately, I think some, but not all, of these folks actually believe what they are doing and saying.

Exactly, though it will be denied every time. They are more spiritual. I have a sister who is involved in this sort of thing and have heard her say that these Charismatic churches are the mature Christians. When in fact they are the babies, even if they have been Christians for 30 plus years. They never grew out of that initial stage where we often are blessed with such things as simple childlike prayers are answered at once. Which I think God probably does for the "new born" as encouragement, and as a sign to them that they have made a connection with Him. But He expects us to grow up, out of the demanding, self centeredness of children and seek Him, not the loaves and fishes. To come to know Him more and more, not seek more and more benefits. To love Him, and not the blessings.

I agree that probably even most involved in these "movements of God" are sincere, are truly His children through faith in the person and work of Christ. Jesus speaks of wolves in sheeps clothing because the enemy and deceiver is in our midst. They stand in our pulpits often. They quote the Bible. Some are deceived themselves and some have malicious intent and personal gain. But in all cases it is the sad thing that has happened in a postmodern era. Solid teaching on Christian doctrine, and expounding on the word of God, hermeneutics and exegesis of the Scriptures, have all but left our churches. His people are not being equipped to discern what is sound teaching and what is not. I equate it to our walls being torn down and our gates burned with fire. And I pray about it. The bright light in all of this is that, nothing can take any out of God's hands who He has given to Jesus.

One of the most serious heresies about "Speaking in tongues" is the "priming the pump" foolishness where people are actually encouraged to mke baby talk, or rendom sounds, and THROUGH PRACTICE develop their "tongues". This almost guarantees that what they come up with will be as phony as a $3 bill. Even the Assemlies of God Denomination tends to fall into this trap with ignorant alter workers trying to produce the miracle of tongues.

There's a verse in the bible dealing with what to do when you're hauled up before magistrates, etc. to "give an answer" for your faith. (Mat 10:19)

OBVIOUSLY, what you are supposed to expect is that the Holy Spirit will provide the words for you to speak, and you don't have to worry about coming up with anything yourself.

This is obviously the "prophetic gift" - i.e. words FROM GOD to you, and then to them by way of the Holy Spirit. whether it's an utterance in the common language, or in an unfamiliar one isn't important - it all comes the same way - Tongues, Prophesy, Interpretation of tongues, Word of Wisdom, Word of knowledge, are all the exact same gift. you SPEAK what the holy Spirit gives you to say.

If you're involved in making up what to say, then what you say IS YOUR HUMAN WISDOM speaking, and not the Gift at all.

Tongues operate in exactly the same fashion. The Holy Spirit gives you the words to say, and you just speak them. That you don't understand them is unimportant. There's no "practice" involved - just getting used to speaking easily what the Holy SPirit gives you, adding, or subtracting nothing. If you "Practiced your "Tongues", then they're not real.

It's the same thing with Prophesy, or Interpretation of tongues. you speak what the Holy SPirit GIVES YOU. if you don't get anything, then there's nothing to say.

 

[Mr GLee]

One of the most serious heresies about "Speaking in tongues" is the "priming the pump" foolishness where people are actually encouraged to mke baby talk, or rendom sounds, and THROUGH PRACTICE develop their "tongues". This almost guarantees that what they come up with will be as phony as a $3 bill. Even the Assemlies of God Denomination tends to fall into this trap with ignorant alter workers trying to produce the miracle of tongues.

There's a verse in the bible dealing with what to do when you're hauled up before magistrates, etc. to "give an answer" for your faith. (Mat 10:19)

OBVIOUSLY, what you are supposed to expect is that the Holy Spirit will provide the words for you to speak, and you don't have to worry about coming up with anything yourself.

This is obviously the "prophetic gift" - i.e. words FROM GOD to you, and then to them by way of the Holy Spirit. whether it's an utterance in the common language, or in an unfamiliar one isn't important - it all comes the same way - Tongues, Prophesy, Interpretation of tongues, Word of Wisdom, Word of knowledge, are all the exact same gift. you SPEAK what the holy Spirit gives you to say.

If you're involved in making up what to say, then what you say IS YOUR HUMAN WISDOM speaking, and not the Gift at all.

Tongues operate in exactly the same fashion. The Holy Spirit gives you the words to say, and you just speak them. That you don't understand them is unimportant. There's no "practice" involved - just getting used to speaking easily what the Holy SPirit gives you, adding, or subtracting nothing. If you "Practiced your "Tongues", then they're not real.

It's the same thing with Prophesy, or Interpretation of tongues. you speak what the Holy SPirit GIVES YOU. if you don't get anything, then there's nothing to say.

Yes, tongues is simply prophecy. All things written in the law and prophets.

Some of the Jew were mocking prophecy so they could rather seek after lying signs to wonder after .

God is no longer adding to prophecy. No sign were given .

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Yes, tongues is simply prophecy. All things written in the law and prophets.

Some of the Jew were mocking prophecy so they could rather seek after lying signs to wonder after .

God is no longer adding to prophecy. No sign were given .

"Prophesy" is God giving something to man directly to his mind as a bit of information. Sometimes it's "earth shaking", but most often it's the "still small voice that gives you direction or information - i.e Speak to this one / pray with this one, etc.

Prophesy is stil completely active in 2024.

 

[Mr GLee]

"Prophesy" is God giving something to man directly to his mind as a bit of information. Sometimes it's "earth shaking", but most often it's the "still small voice that gives you direction or information - i.e Speak to this one / pray with this one, etc.

Prophesy is stil completely active in 2024.

Yes active not new prophecy. God is not adding .

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Yes active not new prophecy. God is not adding .

In terms of ADDING TO what's in the bible (like Purgatorial Sanctification, or Marianism, you're accurate. in terms of clarification, or personal guidance, then Prophesy is O.K. ANY PROPHESY that disagrees witjh either the LETTER, or the CONTEXT of the Bible is verboten. Reminds me of the WW2 story in England, where a prophetic utterance to "LEAVE THE CHURCH" in the midst of a meeting came forth, and shortly thereafter a bomb destroyed the place. Prophesy may properly disagree with denominational theology which is only a human invention.

 

[Mr GLee]

In terms of ADDING TO what's in the bible (like Purgatorial Sanctification, or Marianism, you're accurate. in terms of clarification, or personal guidance, then Prophesy is O.K. ANY PROPHESY that disagrees witjh either the LETTER, or the CONTEXT of the Bible is verboten. Reminds me of the WW2 story in England, where a prophetic utterance to "LEAVE THE CHURCH" in the midst of a meeting came forth, and shortly thereafter a bomb destroyed the place.

Adding to the letter as it is written (death) is the context . Beleive God not seen or mankind seen? It would seem the be trial of our new born agin faith. . . Christ in us yoked with Emanuel

It would be quite difficult to leave the church. Where ever two or three gather together under the the authority of as it is written . Two or three a family , Two or three millions a family. One temple not made with the dying hand of mankind

Like that at the beginning of the ministry of two (Mathew 4) .The Son of man Jesus seen empowered by the Holy Father, Christ.

Satan the king of lying signs to wonder after (believer have prophecy as it is written sealed with 7 seals till the end of time.

The Father Christ working in the Son of man Jesus. Eternal God refused to pretend to beleive the lying signs to wonder king Satan

We are the temporal things of God not made with the dying hands of mankind . . . carrying out the appointment to die once In the new heavens there will be no temple

Again in order to leave the the Church the temple of God we would have to leave ourselves The us that went out because they were never of us from the very beginning. You must be born from above according to Christ labor of love or called a work of his faith .

He gives us little of the power(faith) to beleive in a unseen God and calls us you that have little great faith . Just enough to please the father.

Three time the Father Christ gave words to his prophet Jesus in context as it is written again and again as it is writen .It is the context

No defense against it .the sword .

 

[Bob Carabbio]

How many times have you experienced, or witnessed, this REAL tongues and was it glossolalia or xenolalia?

God isn't a "One trick pony", and just to straighten some things out - NO MAJOR PENTECOSTAL DENOMINATION connects "Tongues" with Salvation - PERIOD. "Oneness Pentecostals" (UPCI) do - but they've got other theological problems as well.

My definition of "Real tongues" would be that which the Holy Spirit gives you directly without any Creative input on your part - i.e. the Holy Spirit gives you the "words" to say, and you simply speak them. Whether they are a KNOWN language, or not, I wouldn't know, and couldn't care less.

SInce I have NEVER spoken in tongues in the public venue as a "message to a congregation" I would be one that according to Paul's definition DOESN'T SPEAK IN TONGUES, although I do it in private (1 cor 14:4) mode.

My Public gift has been Interpretation of tongues, which works just like tongues, except that the utterance in in the common language.

Essentially "Tongues", "Interpretation of Tongues", "Prophesy", "Word of Wisdom", and "Word of Knowledge" are all the SAME GIFT only varying in content. The same goes for Mat 10:19 which is a "prophetic" manifestation.

I reject the theory that they are "Angelic languages" since Paul was probably only using the term as emphasis in 1 Cor 13:1. That they are SOMETIMES known languages is a matter of record (unless you're convinced that all Pentecostal pastors workers and Missionaries are liars).

That the "Tongues" spoken in Acts 2 were known languages is the LEADING (and probably the correct) interpretation, although there's an undercurrent of "Miracle of hearing" advocates.

In the Corinthian case, apparently, NO KNOWN LANGUAGE was in evidence, and without "Interpretation" nobody knew what was being spoken.

There's ALSO EVIDENCE in 1 Cor 14 that people were "SHOWING OFF" with their prayer languages (MY gift is better than YOUR gift),

This is BECAUSE if the Holy Spirit burdens a person to speak in tongues publicly, He'll also burden somebody to Interpret. If there ISN'T an Interpretation, then the spoken tongue was "out of order", and not a legitimate spiritual manifestation.

Historically, NO HUMAN, except for Jesus, had been indwelled by the Holy Spirit. all through the OLD Testament, people were "Endued with power" by Him, but as Jesus said "you KNOW him, because He has been WITH YOU, but he SHALL BE IN YOU (john 14:17). THAT happened at John 20:22 when Jesus breathed on them the effect being in Luke 24:45 when their understanding was "opened".

Acts 2, however is referred to by Jesus as an "Enduement" (a clothing with) power. SO people aren't "getting the Spirit twice", the Holy Spirit is simply coming ON people as He did in the O.T. that He's already IN. the obvious manifestation on that occasion was people speaking in languages that they SHOULDN'T HAVE KNOWN. the obvious manifestation in Acts 10, and 19 was: they spoke in tongues and spoke prophetically.

SO - the ONLY manifestation of "tongues" that I PERSONALLY have experienced is that of private use. Whether it's a "Known language" or not, I wouldn't know.

What's a matter of record in the Assemblies of God Denomination (that I'm part of) is:

Tongues in the private setting - no "message" implied (1 Cor 14:4).
Tongues in the Public setting - not understood, but interpreted by the Tongues speaker, or somebody else (In some cases by me). This is the MOST COMMON.
Tongues in the public setting that ARE understood by an individual listener or a group, often in the correct regional accent - AND sometimes also interpreted by another matching the content of the tongue.
A Message given in the Common language, and HEARD/understood in one or more different languages.

There's also a FALSE practice in Pentecostal churches (including the AG) called "Priming the pump".

I.e. you're encouraged to speak baby talk or nonsense syllables, or just to make sounds to "Get it started". This will result in PHONY TONGUES produced by your own mind that you have to "Practice" to get right.

REAL tongues don't require any sort of "Practice". They're just THERE In your mind, and you speak them as they flow in.

 

[Mr GLee]

God isn't a "One trick pony", and just to straighten some things out - NO MAJOR PENTECOSTAL DENOMINATION connects "Tongues" with Salvation - PERIOD. "Oneness Pentecostals" (UPCI) do - but they've got other theological problems as well.

My definition of "Real tongues" would be that which the Holy Spirit gives you directly without any Creative input on your part - i.e. the Holy Spirit gives you the "words" to say, and you simply speak them. Whether they are a KNOWN language, or not, I wouldn't know, and couldn't care less.

SInce I have NEVER spoken in tongues in the public venue as a "message to a congregation" I would be one that according to Paul's definition DOESN'T SPEAK IN TONGUES, although I do it in private (1 cor 14:4) mode.

My Public gift has been Interpretation of tongues, which works just like tongues, except that the utterance in in the common language.

Essentially "Tongues", "Interpretation of Tongues", "Prophesy", "Word of Wisdom", and "Word of Knowledge" are all the SAME GIFT only varying in content. The same goes for Mat 10:19 which is a "prophetic" manifestation.

Tongues are prophecy . We have the perfect book of prophecy sealed with 7 seals to the end of time .God is not bring new prophecy in any manner.

Satan the father of lies is still king of lying signs to wonder, wonder, wonder after. Rather than prophecy as it is written (sola scriptura)

Spiritual (invisible gifts) of the invisible Holy Spirit they work in dying mankind

They are two fold. . the words given to the preacher as a gift and the understanding the other part working mutually both . From faith (the unseen eternal) to the same invisible eternal . Not our thoughts, His way .

Prophecy. . . .(sola scriptura) hearing God

Mockers . . .of prophecy

1 Corinthians 14 : 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe

The law spoken of the foundation of the doctrine.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

God is not bring new prophecy in any manner.

So - another brave cessationist pontification!!!

Prophesy is "FORTHTELLING" and may or may not have a "Foretelling" content.

Mat 10:19 is the assurance of Prophetic unction in a "Court situation" So are "Word of Knowledge", and "Word of Wisdom". I assume you never need "Wisdom", or "knowledge" about a situation.

 

[Mr GLee]

So - another brave cessationist pontification!!!

Prophesy is "FORTHTELLING" and may or may not have a "Foretelling" content.

Mat 10:19 is the assurance of Prophetic unction in a "Court situation" So are "Word of Knowledge", and "Word of Wisdom". I assume you never need "Wisdom", or "knowledge" about a situation.

Thanks for the reply..

It would seem you lean toward "FORTHTELLING" What I would Call Satan FORTHTELLING.

His only voice the oral grape vine traditons of dying mankind.

No new prophecy. The tongue or language of God

The perfect is sealed with 7 seals till the end of time. With a warning of "death" . . .never to rise to new spirit life to all who refuse to believe.. . . . sola scriptura the living word of the Spirit of Christ, the husband

Prophecy . . .declaring the will of God not seen in respect to the things past, present and future the eternal word not subject to time.

The foretelling only . . .a wile of the spirit of error Lucifer, the Legion. Nostradamus the flip of a coin guesser.

Satan the King of lying sings to wonder after. Saying to Jesus the Son of man trust and bow down and I will give all the kingdoms and all the false glory. .

Satan the king of lying signs to wonder after his only voice of lies. He is till especially today when words have no need for meaning as a law.

Beelzebub still bringing every day lying signs to wonder after as if it was prohecy (sola scriptura) He will cease when tossed in the judgment fire of Christ on the last day under the Sun ..

God is not a man as us (dying mankind) neither are His living ways our dying ways.

Signs to wonder after= non believers . Prophecy the tongue of God the spiritual food for the believers

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Thanks for the reply..

It would seem you lean toward "FORTHTELLING" What I would Call Satan FORTHTELLING.

O.K. in your Book, God never speaks to anybody any more about anything, and only satan speaks to us.

I disagree.

SImple as that.