About the "perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13:10

[Dave]

13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

We have two Greek verbs being used here.

"katargeo" This is the Greek verb used to describe what will happen to prophecy and knowledge. "fail", "vanish away"

"pauo" This is the Greek verb being used to describe what will happen to tongues. "cease"

"katargeo" means to "reduce to inactivity" or to "abolish" Both forms of the verb in verse 8 , and in verse 10, are passive; that is, something or someone will cause them to stop. That something is the coming of the "Perfect".

"pauo" means "to stop, to come to an end". Which when used of persons, indicates intentional, voluntary action upon oneself. Used of inanimate objects it indicates reflexive, self-causing action. The cause comes from within; it is built in.

So we have two different ways of these three gifts being stopped. The gifts of prophecy and knowledge will stop when the "perfect comes". The gift of tongues will cause itself to stop.

Note; in 13:9-13, tongues are not mentioned. Also note the emboldened words.** added for emphasis.

13:9 For we *know* in part, and we *prophesy* in part. (no tongues)

13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (Note; that only the verb katargeo is used here. "done away")

13:11When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. 13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity


Does the closed cannon of scripture equal the perfect? From MacArthur's NT commentary.

A) That idea would have been meaningless to the Corinthians. Nowhere in this letter (1 Corinthians) does Paul mention or allude to such a scriptural completion (Rev. Does). Spiritual and moral perfection would have been the way they would have taken that. (Math.5:48) Completed holiness, our one day becoming what God now counts or reckons us to be.

B) If the perfect refers to the completion of Scripture, Then prophecy and knowledge have already been stopped, the two most important gifts for proclaiming, interpreting, and understanding Scripture. (The gift of prophecy was only partly used for revelation)

C) Prophecy will be active in the Kingdom age. (Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17).

D) Prior to the Kingdom, during the Tribulation, God will raise up two great prophetic witnesses who "Will prophecy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth". (Rev. 11:3)

E) We will see "face to face" (1 Cor.13:12).

F) No Christian, before or after the completion of the New Testament has known the Lord as he has "been fully known".

G) The verb "katargeo" means to be abolished completely and finally. An interruption of prophecy would not fit Paul's point here, which is to show the permanency of love over the temporariness of gifts. (For those who believe it will stop and then start again)

All other popular interpretations of "the perfect" Must pass the test, which eliminates the rapture, the maturing Church, and the second coming. The "perfect" is the eternal, heavenly state of believers. The eternal state allows for the neuter form of the "perfect" and allows for the continuation of knowledge and prophecy during the church age, the tribulation, and the kingdom. It fits the context of Paul's emphasis on the permanence of love. It also fits his mention of our then seeing "face to face", which will come about only with our glorification, when we will be illumined by the very glory of God Himself (Rev. 21:23). Finally, again, only in heaven will we "Know fully just as [we] also have been fully known" (1 Cor. 13:12). (Macarthur's NT commentaries)

Dave

 

[Lees]

@Dave: concerning post #(1)

If the 'perfect' is the eternal state, then the gifts of the Spirit are present in the Church till the eternal state.

(1 Cor. 13) is the product of (1 Cor. 12:27-31). There Paul lists the many gifts given to the members of the Body of Christ. He says in 12:31) "But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way."

That more excellent way is 'charity' or 'love' which should govern all the believers actions. Whether it be through the use of spiritual gifts, or even martyrdom. (1 Cor. 13:4)

So 'charity' is in contrast with all the gifts. Prophecies will fail. Tongues shall cease. Knowledge will vanish away. (1 Cor. 13:8) All of the gifts of the Spirit are temporary. Why?, because the believer has only the 'earnest of the Spirit'. (Eph. 1:13-14) And he functions with the earnest of the Spirit that he has, which is defined by his Spiritual gift.

And each believers gift works towards edifying the Body of Christ. (Eph. 4:12) Towards the work of the ministry. (Eph. 4:12) For the perfecting of the saints. (Eph. 4:12)

(Eph. 4:12-13) For the perfecting of the saints...Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ."

That word 'Till' describes how long the gifts are present in the Church. Till we the Church measure up to Christ in maturity in the exercise of our gift ministries.

Then, (1 Cor. 13: 10), "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

My opinion.

Lees

 

[makesends]

@Dave: concerning post #(1)

If the 'perfect' is the eternal state, then the gifts of the Spirit are present in the Church till the eternal state.

By your tone, I expect you are equating "eternal state" as only what comes subsequent to physical death and resurrection.

Can you demonstrate how your logic necessarily follows?

Paul (as far as I know) doesn't claim that the 'perfect' is only what follows physical death and resurrection. We have the "perfect", "already, but not yet". The fact we don't yet see it doesn't lessen the truth of what God has done in us, and who/what we are. There are several scriptural indications that what we see in Heaven is what already is—except that we don't see it until then. (We are already the sons of God, for example, but there the sons of God are revealed. If you don't like that example, there are others, but I like that one and I think it is more than just speculation, as to what it is referring to)

Further, even if Paul is claiming that what is 'perfect' is indeed only what comes by physical death and resurrection, it logically follows only that the 'gifts of the Spirit' CAN BE, but not that they ARE, present till that eternal state—'after' physical death and resurrection.

Furthermore, (and, (disclaimer), I can only claim this by my personal inclinations —not exactly doctrine— but in my habit of pattern-recognition), in the same way that 'death is swallowed up by victory', I believe that the things of this earth, 'the temporal', in being done away with, are not wastes fragmented into nothingness, but "swallowed up" into the eternal, TRANSFORMED, just as our physical bodies are raised up and glorified. The gifts 'done away with' here, may well be representative of how God uses us there, used as a crutch here, only in the beginning of the church, as the spectacular for the sake of opening eyes and building up the body until the canon was complete (or some other such ending).

 

[Dave]

Hey makesends.

I've got to admit, you lost me.

[[[Edit]]]

OK, now I see that it was a quote from Lees. Sorry, my bad.

Dave

 

[Lees]

By your tone, I expect you are equating "eternal state" as only what comes subsequent to physical death and resurrection.

Can you demonstrate how your logic necessarily follows?

Paul (as far as I know) doesn't claim that the 'perfect' is only what follows physical death and resurrection. We have the "perfect", "already, but not yet". The fact we don't yet see it doesn't lessen the truth of what God has done in us, and who/what we are. There are several scriptural indications that what we see in Heaven is what already is—except that we don't see it until then. (We are already the sons of God, for example, but there the sons of God are revealed. If you don't like that example, there are others, but I like that one and I think it is more than just speculation, as to what it is referring to)

Further, even if Paul is claiming that what is 'perfect' is indeed only what comes by physical death and resurrection, it logically follows only that the 'gifts of the Spirit' CAN BE, but not that they ARE, present till that eternal state—'after' physical death and resurrection.

Furthermore, (and, (disclaimer), I can only claim this by my personal inclinations —not exactly doctrine— but in my habit of pattern-recognition), in the same way that 'death is swallowed up by victory', I believe that the things of this earth, 'the temporal', in being done away with, are not wastes fragmented into nothingness, but "swallowed up" into the eternal, TRANSFORMED, just as our physical bodies are raised up and glorified. The gifts 'done away with' here, may well be representative of how God uses us there, used as a crutch here, only in the beginning of the church, as the spectacular for the sake of opening eyes and building up the body until the canon was complete (or some other such ending).

I don't know what you mean, 'by my tone'.

Go back and reread. Your concern/confusion about the eternal state comes from @Dave via McArthur. Not me. I just said, if the 'perfect' is the eternal state, then the gifts of the Spirit last till the eternal state. Simple logic. (1 Cor. 13:10)

Lees

 

[makesends]

I don't know what you mean, 'by my tone'.

Go back and reread. Your concern/confusion about the eternal state comes from @Dave via McArthur. Not me. I just said, if the 'perfect' is the eternal state, then the gifts of the Spirit last till the eternal state. Simple logic. (1 Cor. 13:10)

Lees

Yes, I took this: "If the 'perfect' is the eternal state, then the gifts of the Spirit are present in the Church till the eternal state." to be your thesis, not from @Dave . Anyhow, by "tone" I meant a general force of argument, (not any reference to contentiousness or whatever). Lol, I'm worried I may never find this elusive MacArthur post!

 

[Lees]

Yes, I took this: "If the 'perfect' is the eternal state, then the gifts of the Spirit are present in the Church till the eternal state." to be your thesis, not from @Dave . Anyhow, by "tone" I meant a general force of argument, (not any reference to contentiousness or whatever). Lol, I'm worried I may never find this elusive MacArthur post!

See post #(1).

Lees

 

[Mr GLee]

B) If the perfect refers to the completion of Scripture, Then prophecy and knowledge have already been stopped, the two most important gifts for proclaiming, interpreting, and understanding Scripture. (The gift of prophecy was only partly used for revelation)

The perfect or complete is used in both the completion of scripture (sola scriptura_ and ,1 Corinthian 13. beginning with e first works Christ labor of love. Love must be patient, long suffering. Then it can be Kind. building up... Having no reason to ne prideful leading building up to the perfect. complete finishing Rejoices not in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth

1 Corinthians 13-9 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,; Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.