The Gift of Healing.

[makesends]

For the sake of being thorough.

Contrary to popular Charismatic/Pentecostal belief, the thorn in Paul's flesh was not a physical ailment, rather, as that passage explains very clearly, it's a fallen spirit that God allowed to torment Paul, called "a messenger from Satan", as Paul says was allowed by God to afflict him "to keep him humble".

1 Tim 5:23, and 1 Tim 2:27 were dealt with in the second post. And Phil 2:27, perhaps you should read that one again. He had a ministry to fulfill, so God healed him for His purposes, not Epaphroditus'. "For indeed he was sick almost unto death; but God had mercy on him, and not only on him but on me also, lest I should have sorrow upon sorrow.". And it probably was not even miraculous. Just providence.

Dave

FWIW, the "messenger from Satan" may well have been a physical ailment, which, actually, flies in the face of most Faith-Healing doctrine, for God did not remove it, no matter how Paul begged for it to be gone. That by no means implies that all physical ailments are Satan's doing, but it specifically does imply that they cannot happen in opposition to God's purposes/ decree.

 

[Dave]

Maybe google can explain it better than me.

It was not a thing but rather a demonic messenger. The word used as “messenger” here is always translated as angel or messenger and refers to a created being. So, Paul's thorn was literally a demon sent from Satan to buffet him. The word “buffet” means to strike repeatedly as waves would buffet the shore.

 

[makesends]

Maybe google can explain it better than me.

It was not a thing but rather a demonic messenger. The word used as “messenger” here is always translated as angel or messenger and refers to a created being. So, Paul's thorn was literally a demon sent from Satan to buffet him. The word “buffet” means to strike repeatedly as waves would buffet the shore.

I meant, but was not clear, that the demonic messenger may well have caused a physical ailment, (as in, Job's situation).

 

[Arial]

Point being Paul couldn't heal everybody. Other factors come in to play. Same is true with any believer who has the gift of healing. It's absurd to think he can 'heal anybody at anytime'. And foolish.

So go back and respond to posts #(32) and (33).

Lees

The purpose of healing was never for anybody at anytime. The purpose it served with Jesus and the apostles has been achieved. Our NT is complete, and there is an argument from silence that it ceased or phased out even in the Apostolic church---which time period contained in our NT. And I have not read all the posts in this thread but what I did read no one ever said it was for anybody at anytime or somebody all the time, or anybody all the time.

As a gift to the church, it has ceased, through individuals.

 

[Lees]

The purpose of healing was never for anybody at anytime. The purpose it served with Jesus and the apostles has been achieved. Our NT is complete, and there is an argument from silence that it ceased or phased out even in the Apostolic church---which time period contained in our NT. And I have not read all the posts in this thread but what I did read no one ever said it was for anybody at anytime or somebody all the time, or anybody all the time.

As a gift to the church, it has ceased, through individuals.

Tell that to @Dave, not me.

No, you are confusing signs and wonders with the gifts of the Holy Ghost given to the Church for the edificatin of the Body. The New Testament being complete has no impact on the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Again, tell it to @Dave. Not me.

Who says 'as a gift to the church, it has ceased'? You? Scripture doesn't say that. @Dave would like you to believe it, and maybe you believe it already.

Why do you say God has ceased to heal using 'indiviudals'?

Lees

 

[Arial]

No, you are confusing signs and wonders with the gifts of the Holy Ghost given to the Church for the edificatin of the Body. The New Testament being complete has no impact on the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

No I am not. You need to stop telling people things about them that you cannot know. The OP title is The Gift of Healing. Healing is what has been discussed. Gifts of healings was given to the church, a long with apostles, prophets, teachers, miracles, helps, administrations, various languages. 1 Cor 12:28.

The NT does have an impact on whether some of these gifts are operational today. They were serving a purpose and the purpose was served. Healings do still occur in the church and outside the church but it is not assigned to a person who has the gift. Any healing of anyone, whether through medicine or otherwise, a believer or an unbeliever is a gift and it is from God. The apostles healed verifying they were sent from God and spoke truth.

Who says 'as a gift to the church, it has ceased'? You? Scripture doesn't say that. @Dave would like you to believe it, and maybe you believe it already.

Look around you. What appears to be that is new, relatively speaking, is associated with churches that abhor biblical doctrine and never teach it, are gaining immense amounts of wealth off of it, and has been demonstrated to be fakery. Perhaps you should read MacArthur's Charismatic Chaos. Or D.R. McConnell's A Different Gospel.

Why do you say God has ceased to heal using 'indiviudals'?

The ones doing it never do it like either the apostles or Jesus and it is showmanship and smoke and mirrors. A way to steal from the poor and desperate. There must be a special place in hell for them. Ever hear of the power of suggestion? Mass hypnosis? It really isn't that hard to do. Music, incense, lighting, programmed expectation.

 

[Lees]

No I am not. You need to stop telling people things about them that you cannot know. The OP title is The Gift of Healing. Healing is what has been discussed. Gifts of healings was given to the church, a long with apostles, prophets, teachers, miracles, helps, administrations, various languages. 1 Cor 12:28.

The NT does have an impact on whether some of these gifts are operational today. They were serving a purpose and the purpose was served. Healings do still occur in the church and outside the church but it is not assigned to a person who has the gift. Any healing of anyone, whether through medicine or otherwise, a believer or an unbeliever is a gift and it is from God. The apostles healed verifying they were sent from God and spoke truth.

Look around you. What appears to be that is new, relatively speaking, is associated with churches that abhor biblical doctrine and never teach it, are gaining immense amounts of wealth off of it, and has been demonstrated to be fakery. Perhaps you should read MacArthur's Charismatic Chaos. Or D.R. McConnell's A Different Gospel.

The ones doing it never do it like either the apostles or Jesus and it is showmanship and smoke and mirrors. A way to steal from the poor and desperate. There must be a special place in hell for them. Ever hear of the power of suggestion? Mass hypnosis? It really isn't that hard to do. Music, incense, lighting, programmed expectation.

I know what you said...that is what I know. You confuse the 'gifts of healing' with 'signs and wonders', and indicate that the New Testament being complete means there is no longer any need for the gifts of the Holy Ghost.

The gift ministries are not for authenticating the New Testament and it's writers. They are for the ministry to the Body of Christ, the Church. For it's edification and bringing it to 'perfection' or maturity. (Eph. 4:12-13) (1 Cor. 12:7) (Rom. 12:3-8)

(1 Cor. 12:28) "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, govenments, diversities of tongues."

(1 Cor. 12:30) "Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?"

You say 'look around you'. You discount the Scriptures above due to what 'you see', or what you don't see. You say, God heals in and outside the Church. In other words, no need for the gift ministries...except Scripture.

I have said before that there is the false. Of course. And why wouldn't there be? Would Satan be silent in the face of a work of God upon the earth? (Ex. 7:10-11) (Ex. 7:20-22) The falsification of the truth doesn't, or shouldn't, remove the truth.

Didn't God warn His people of this. (Deut. 13:1-5). Don't be fooled by signs or wonders or miracles. Test them by what God has said. In other words, the miracles prove nothing. God's word proves the miracles.

Lees

 

[Arial]

I know what you said...that is what I know. You confuse the 'gifts of healing' with 'signs and wonders', and indicate that the New Testament being complete means there is no longer any need for the gifts of the Holy Ghost.

I never said I was confusing the gifts of healing with signs and wonders. And I never said there is no longer any need for the gifts of the Holy Spirit. But miraculous healings are a wonder, and the Bible clearly states their purpose with both Jesus and the apostles.

John 10:24-26 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, "How long will you keep us insuspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus answere them. "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe becaue you are not among my sheep.

Acts 2:22 Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know....

Heb 2:3-4 This salvaton which was frst announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by those who heard him. God also testified to it by sings, and wonders, and various miracles, an dby gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

So miraculous healing is a sign gift. It was a sign of the authority of those appointed----the apostles primarily--- to lay the foundation (doctrinal truths of Christ's church). That foundation has been laid. It is contained within our scriptures. Nothing is to be added to it or taken away from it. That does not mean that God no longer heals physical illness. As I have said before, healing is always of God no matter the means. And we are instructed to pray (ask) for this mercy. So it is you who are not making a correct distinction, but conglomerating it all together. And it isn't worth arguing about any more.

You say 'look around you'. You discount the Scriptures above due to what 'you see', or what you don't see. You say, God heals in and outside the Church. In other words, no need for the gift ministries...except Scripture.

I never said any such thing as there being no need of gift ministries to the church. First you talk of one gift and in the same breath make it all gifts and attach it to my words. Maybe you should define exactly what you are talking about and stick with that. And maybe you should listen to what others are saying instead of putting words in their mouth.

 

[Lees]

I never said I was confusing the gifts of healing with signs and wonders. And I never said there is no longer any need for the gifts of the Holy Spirit. But miraculous healings are a wonder, and the Bible clearly states their purpose with both Jesus and the apostles.

John 10:24-26 So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, "How long will you keep us insuspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus answere them. "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe becaue you are not among my sheep.

Acts 2:22 Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know....

Heb 2:3-4 This salvaton which was frst announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by those who heard him. God also testified to it by sings, and wonders, and various miracles, an dby gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

So miraculous healing is a sign gift. It was a sign of the authority of those appointed----the apostles primarily--- to lay the foundation (doctrinal truths of Christ's church). That foundation has been laid. It is contained within our scriptures. Nothing is to be added to it or taken away from it. That does not mean that God no longer heals physical illness. As I have said before, healing is always of God no matter the means. And we are instructed to pray (ask) for this mercy. So it is you who are not making a correct distinction, but conglomerating it all together. And it isn't worth arguing about any more.

I never said any such thing as there being no need of gift ministries to the church. First you talk of one gift and in the same breath make it all gifts and attach it to my words. Maybe you should define exactly what you are talking about and stick with that. And maybe you should listen to what others are saying instead of putting words in their mouth.

Well, I know you didn't say it. But you are doing it.

(John 10:24-26) is not addressing the gift ministries given to the Church.

(Acts 2:22) speaks to those signs and wonders verifying Jesus as the Messiah and offer of the Kingdom. Has nothing to do with the Church.

(Heb. 2:3-4) speaks to the same. (Heb. 2:3-4) "...which at first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him. God bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and diverse miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost...." See (Rom. 15:8) "Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers. Has nothing to do with the gift ministries given to the Church.

Yes, healing is a miracle and was a sign gift. It was one which would verify to Israel that He was the Messiah. But the gift of healing given to the Church, though it too is mraculous, has a different purpose. The building up of and edification of the Body of Christ. (1 Cor. 12:7) (1 Cor. 12:25)

Really? You deny which gifts for the Church today? Healing for one. What else? Miracles? Tongues? What else? Interpretation of Tongues? what else? List them for me. Then tell me why God would remove some of these for the Church and leave others.

Lees

 

[Arial]

Well, I know you didn't say it. But you are doing it.

You can insist I am doing it as many times as you want but I am not. I have reiterated at least twice, the distinction regarding physical healing. Miraculous as with Jesus and the apostles. That is a sign gift. And ordinary----not miraculous. Miraculous would be a man born blind or deaf, suddenly seeing or hearing. A man dead for three days, from a sickness, smelling and decomposing, and wrapped in burial cloths walking out of the grave whole.

Ordinary is, someone is sick and they get well. Both are gifts.

Yes, healing is a miracle and was a sign gift. It was one which would verify to Israel that He was the Messiah. But the gift of healing given to the Church, though it too is mraculous, has a different purpose. The building up of and edification of the Body of Christ. (1 Cor. 12:7) (1 Cor. 12:25)

Ordinary healing is not a miracle. It is ordinary. It is not a miracle every time someone is healed. And that scripture does not say gift of healing, it says gifts of healings--- the healings are gifts. Not miracles. A gift. Say thank you.

Really? You deny which gifts for the Church today? Healing for one. What else? Miracles? Tongues? What else? Interpretation of Tongues? what else? List them for me. Then tell me why God would remove some of these for the Church and leave others.

Do you really expect me to do that for the fourth time?

Over and out. You are simply being argumentative. Certainly not in any way edifying.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Really? You deny which gifts for the Church today? Healing for one. What else? Miracles? Tongues? What else? Interpretation of Tongues? what else? List them for me. Then tell me why God would remove some of these for the Church and leave others.

People can and should pray for miracles and should pray for ever greater manifestations of the Holy Spirit evidenced within our lives, in keeping with what we pray when we pray the Lord's prayer, quote "On earth as it is in Heaven"

Heaven begins at home, to borrow heavily for a catchy turn of phrase.

In God's Mercy He may smile upon you. We do not live as those with no hope.

But those who make public spectacle of God and make Him a mockery will not be looked kindly upon, I would imagine, in That Day.

If you're right and someone could rise up and heal an entire hospital full of people what would happen if they did? Shrines would be up before morning and pilgrimages began, to worship something that isn't God...

Does anyone think God might want that? To give comfort in someone's final hours, or healing of any kind, things like that really are simply best left in God's Providence alone to do as He pleases.

I do believe in the main, signs gifts are unnecessary today in the eyes of God, I see it more like God expecting us to have grown from milk to the meat at some point.

I do think we should express to people what the Scripture states concerning the Holy Spirit, that they might know that God's available to strengthen, remind, and comfort as we have need, and we do have need just to get through each day.

 

[Dave]

If you're right and someone could rise up and heal an entire hospital full of people what would happen if they did? Shrines would be up before morning and pilgrimages began, to worship something that isn't God...

Hi Hazel.

For the same reasons I always said that the shroud of Turin should be burned. I think it's a fake anyways, but still, I know the nature of people. If someone really had the gift of healing, there would be lines across the world. Every billionaire would be trying to pay top dollar to claim spot in front of that line. It would be on the news everywhere.

Dave

 

[Lees]

You can insist I am doing it as many times as you want but I am not. I have reiterated at least twice, the distinction regarding physical healing. Miraculous as with Jesus and the apostles. That is a sign gift. And ordinary----not miraculous. Miraculous would be a man born blind or deaf, suddenly seeing or hearing. A man dead for three days, from a sickness, smelling and decomposing, and wrapped in burial cloths walking out of the grave whole.

Ordinary is, someone is sick and they get well. Both are gifts.

Ordinary healing is not a miracle. It is ordinary. It is not a miracle every time someone is healed. And that scripture does not say gift of healing, it says gifts of healings--- the healings are gifts. Not miracles. A gift. Say thank you.

Do you really expect me to do that for the fourth time?

Over and out. You are simply being argumentative. Certainly not in any way edifying.

Who is talking about 'ordinary healing'. Sign gifts are not ordinary. Gifts of the Holy Spirit to the Church are not ordinary.

No, I expect you to answer the question. Give me a list of the gifts of the Holy Spirit given to the Church that are not for today. And then tell me why God removed these and not others that are for today. After all , you said you believed that some gifts are for today...correct?

No, I am not being argumentative. I am questioning what you're saying. {edit} I am not afraid of your questions.

Lees

 

[Lees]

People can and should pray for miracles and should pray for ever greater manifestations of the Holy Spirit evidenced within our lives, in keeping with what we pray when we pray the Lord's prayer, quote "On earth as it is in Heaven"

Heaven begins at home, to borrow heavily for a catchy turn of phrase.

In God's Mercy He may smile upon you. We do not live as those with no hope.

But those who make public spectacle of God and make Him a mockery will not be looked kindly upon, I would imagine, in That Day.

If you're right and someone could rise up and heal an entire hospital full of people what would happen if they did? Shrines would be up before morning and pilgrimages began, to worship something that isn't God...

Does anyone think God might want that? To give comfort in someone's final hours, or healing of any kind, things like that really are simply best left in God's Providence alone to do as He pleases.

I do believe in the main, signs gifts are unnecessary today in the eyes of God, I see it more like God expecting us to have grown from milk to the meat at some point.

I do think we should express to people what the Scripture states concerning the Holy Spirit, that they might know that God's available to strengthen, remind, and comfort as we have need, and we do have need just to get through each day.

Why do you say, "If you're right and someone could rise up and heal and entire hospital full of people"?

Because I have never said that. In fact, I have said just the oppisite. Why do you choose to misrepresent me.

{ Edit. Personal insult removed by admin}

Lees

 

[Arial]

Who is talking about 'ordinary healing'. Sign gifts are not ordinary. Gifts of the Holy Spirit to the Church are not ordinary.

No, I expect you to answer the question. Give me a list of the gifts of the Holy Spirit given to the Church that are not for today. And then tell me why God removed these and not others that are for today. After all , you said you believed that some gifts are for today...correct?

No, I am not being argumentative. I am questioning what you're saying. Are you afraid of that? I am not afraid of your questions.

Lees

Tongues, miracles including miraculous healings and raising the dead, signs and wonders.

Because they served their purpose of authenticating the apostles foundation laying---doctrinal teaching. Tongues (languages) were needed because the gospel was being spread to all nations and more than one language was spoken, and to show salvation came to Gentile as well as Jew. The church doesn't need that anymore.

Apostles as they must be appointed by Jesus and be a witness to his life, death, and resurrection. (Paul spoke with him after the resurrection and ascension.) They were given to lay the foundation upon which the church is built

Prophets as in fore telling. The church has prophets as in speaking and expounding on the written word of God. I have said all of the with the exception of the apostles and prophets at least twice before. It may be difficult for you to accept, but it is not difficult to understand. And stop the snark. I edited it out.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Why do you say, "If you're right and someone could rise up and heal and entire hospital full of people"?

Because I have never said that. In fact, I have said just the oppisite. Why do you choose to misrepresent me.

Of course you get the praise of others. Is that why?

Lees

Praise of others? Excuse me but that is rude to say to someone, especially the first words ever spoken between us to my knowledge.

I do apologize but I was not intending to misrepresent anything you said. As is my habit I use the proverbial we and you all the time, it's just the way I speak.

If you'll excuse me though, I'll just dip out of this. It's clearly not starting with a brotherly tone so I'll just end any aspect of my involvement here, I have no need of drama at the moment.

I'm just looking for a place of rest.

Also, I'm not being insincere in my apology because in political discussions I try to always go back and edit out any accidental yous but since this is not political debate I just didn't think about... and for that I am actually sorry. It is just the way I talk though, I can't manage to stop.

 

[Lees]

Tongues, miracles including miraculous healings and raising the dead, signs and wonders.

Because they served their purpose of authenticating the apostles foundation laying---doctrinal teaching. Tongues (languages) were needed because the gospel was being spread to all nations and more than one language was spoken, and to show salvation came to Gentile as well as Jew. The church doesn't need that anymore.

Apostles as they must be appointed by Jesus and be a witness to his life, death, and resurrection. (Paul spoke with him after the resurrection and ascension.) They were given to lay the foundation upon which the church is built

Prophets as in fore telling. The church has prophets as in speaking and expounding on the written word of God. I have said all of the with the exception of the apostles and prophets at least twice before. It may be difficult for you to accept, but it is not difficult to understand. And stop the snark. I edited it out.

No, I have showed you that signs and wonder miralcles are not the same as the gifts given to the Church. Again you confuse the two. Just as you do those who were appointed apostles and the gift of apostleship given to the Church.

(1 Cor. 9:1-2) "Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord? If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord."

Note here that Paul didn't claim any miraculous gifts as evidence of his apostleship. That's because he is not talking about the gift of apostleship to the Church. Paul never claimed his ability to do miracles and speak in tongues validated his writing the Word of God. (1 Cor. 14:37) And neither did Peter when talking about Paul writing Scripture. (2 Peter 3:16)

Where do you get the idea that the gift of tongues was necessary for the spread of the gospel? The gift of tongues had a confusing aspect about it. (1 Cor. 14:23) "If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?"


Concerning the gifts given to the Church, that you say are no longer needed, where in the Scripture does it say the Church doesn't need them anymore? Why do you choose the very openly miraculous gifts to eliminate from the Church? And why do you allow for the gifts that can be easily imitated to stand?

You err on two fronts. The purpose of the gift ministry to the Church. And that some gifts have been eliminated because they are no longer needed. And not just you, the vast majority of the Church.

And the damage such unbelief has caused is beyond repair in the Church. Why? Because all of the gifts given to the Church are 'miraculous'. They are only from the Holy Spirit. But you and others make them common place. You don't appoint a man as a pastor/teacher in the Church because he evidences the power of the Holy Spirit and the gift of pastor/teaching. You do so because of his 'academic' credentials. It's not a 'miraculous' appointment. It's a man made appointment. Because all of the 'miraculous' gifts were done away...you say.

This occurs in the Church all over the world. People are placed in leadership positions that don't have the gift of leadership from the Holy Spirit. Thus, when one comes along who happens to have the gift, be it leadership, or pastor/teaching, or whatever, all of a sudden there appears a distinction. And to those in the leadership positions who don't have the gift, that one with the gift becomes a threat. What do they do? They get rid of him. Perfect example is Jesus Christ. Insuring that the ministry of the Holy Spirit is squelched in that local church.

I don't remember being 'snarky'. Could have I suppose. I know I can be.

Lees

 

[Lees]

Praise of others? Excuse me but that is rude to say to someone, especially the first words ever spoken between us to my knowledge.

I do apologize but I was not intending to misrepresent anything you said. As is my habit I use the proverbial we and you all the time, it's just the way I speak.

If you'll excuse me though, I'll just dip out of this. It's clearly not starting with a brotherly tone so I'll just end any aspect of my involvement here, I have no need of drama at the moment.

I'm just looking for a place of rest.

Also, I'm not being insincere in my apology because in political discussions I try to always go back and edit out any accidental yous but since this is not political debate I just didn't think about... and for that I am actually sorry. It is just the way I talk though, I can't manage to stop.

My apologies for the rudeness. I should not have said that.

Sometimes entering an ongoing debate is like getting between two dogs fighting. That's no excuse however.

Again, my apologies.

Lees

 

[Mr GLee]

The mistranslation of the word apostle "sent messenger" as in beautiful feet is given over to highly venerable dying mankind. (a wile of the evil one the spirit of false apostles, false prophecy. It destroys the gospel.

God is still sending out his apostles two be two with prophecy the tongue of Christ
.
Many deny Abel the first apostle, prophet, martyr used to establish a man must be born again from above

Ask yourself. . who sent you as an "apostle" today to defend the faith of Christ's labor of Love? As it is written (sola scriptura)

True apostle as well as false apostles are still doing the work. It's not an outdated word. That served its purpose

My wife sends me out as her apostle to the Supermarket with words not to add to or take away. Completing the mission I receive the apostle's reward. .Two homemade peanut butter cookies and a cold glass of milk.

 

[Hazelelponi]

My apologies for the rudeness. I should not have said that.

Sometimes entering an ongoing debate is like getting between two dogs fighting. That's no excuse however.

Again, my apologies.

Lees

You are forgiven, I can do the same sometimes.

When I jumped in I was just trying to give another perspective to see from, that yes, was more supportive of your opponent, but I thought it might help you see it another way.

Sometimes I just need a different way to see something to understand better. I think that's why it helps having more than one to speak.

To me, I don't think arguing over something we almost never see in our day and time as if it should be a normal is worth arguing about.

Rather, we should support and fight for what we do see today and see that we need, which is to know there's an understanding that comes from God alone, and a strength and comfort too, and these things we see, and need and come from the Holy Spirit.

I can't describe what it was for me to be saved, but in the span of a heartbeat the whole world turned on it's head...

That new understanding is worth fighting for... But nothing else is, to me, because the new understanding is salvific, in the end, and whether someone can heal on demand is not a blip on the radar.

I will leave you to it, and wish you well. God bless.