Tongues in the NT Church

[STAND]

It was an accurate warning, which she largely ignored.

Are you threatened by my simple questions, Bob?

You seem real insecure and uncertain about your testimony here.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

That's amazing.

So both these prophesies were given by a person and then translated by someone who was also present at the time they were given?

"Prophesy" is typically delivered in the "Common tongue". "Tongues" + "Interpretaton of Tongues" = "Prophesy

In both cases, "Tongues" weren't involved.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

The pastor I was under, and is often claimed, when people are prayed over to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and before they are in order to incite a reaction, is to say you just have to start making sounds, and with practice we become more fluent. Even just a groan they will say.

This is the 'ol "Priming the pump" heresy - it was fairly common in the Assemblies of God denomination, during the "Baptism in the Holy Spirit head and back rubbing alter sessions" back in the '60s. It tends to guarantee that the "Tongues" that result will be as phony as a $3 bill. In the FGBMFI in the '70s they tended to push the same heresy. If you've never been gifted to speak in tongues, you have no idea what it's like, and so folks make up all sorts of silly "Methods". All you have to do is wait on the gift, and when it comes, you'll know it.

In my case, I was prayed for to be "baptized in the Holy Spirit" (AG vernacular), and as usual nothing happened. Several weeks later, during a song service, before the preaching - an "Odd word" popped into my mind, which I spoke, and it as followed by more odd word that flowed, and I spoke, and I realized that I was "Speaking in tongues" - there was nothing to learn, nothing to practice. Just speak what the Holy Spirit gives you to say, and when the flow stops - then you stop - simple as that.

Some weeks later, I found that "Interpretation of tongues" is identical, except that the flow of words are in the common language, and you just speak them as they flow through, and stop when they stop. It's identical to "Prophetic utterance", except that it's preceded by somebody speaking in a tongue.

Anything you have to "Practice" - is phony.

 

[Arial]

In my case, I was prayed for to be "baptized in the Holy Spirit" (AG vernacular), and as usual nothing happened. Several weeks later, during a song service, before the preaching - an "Odd word" popped into my mind, which I spoke, and it as followed by more odd word that flowed, and I spoke, and I realized that I was "Speaking in tongues" - there was nothing to learn, nothing to practice. Just speak what the Holy Spirit gives you to say, and when the flow stops - then you stop - simple as that.

Anecdotal accounts of an experience are not verification of anything and neither are experiences.

Anything you have to "Practice" - is phony.

Is that a proof of whether something is phoney or not? If it is then it would mean anything you don't have to practice is genuine. And that is nonsense.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Anecdotal accounts of an experience are not verification of anything and neither are experiences.

Yup - sometimes I wonder why I bother with giving testimony at all. Cessationists will believe what they've been taught.

Is that a proof of whether something is phoney or not?

If it's a "Spiritual Gift" (1 cor 12) then "the necessity for Practice to get it right" would be an indication that it's not from the Holy Spirit at all. why would you have to "Practice" something that's given to you in finished form, and all you have to do is speak it??

 

[Arial]

Yup - sometimes I wonder why I bother with giving testimony at all. Cessationists will believe what they've been taught.

If it's a "Spiritual Gift" (1 cor 12) then "the necessity for Practice to get it right" would be an indication that it's not from the Holy Spirit at all. why would you have to "Practice" something that's given to you in finished form, and all you have to do is speak it??

Why would you have to do it at all?

 

[makesends]

Thank you.

I've come to much the same conclusions.

I've even heard an explanation that really smacks of unbiblical heresy - when someone claims to have tried and tried to receive the 'Holy Spirit Baptism/Tongues' and prayed and prayed, etc. It was told to them that they needed to achieve a state of 'perfection' (my word). That they had unrepented sins or unconfessed sins and they needed to attain to some level of holiness or high sanctification. That, to me, is horrible heresy.

That not only implies that all who speak in tongues are at some level of higher perfection than those who don't, but it also begs the question - Does that level of perfection then remain or can it devolve?

I had a first-hand testimony given to me from a Pentecostal Bible teacher that they received 'tongues' at a young age and then 'backslid'? and fell into worldly ways again and had to go back and get re-baptized, etc. That's a bit of a contradiction to this concept at least.

So there's just so much that doesn't add up with it all. And I can honestly say it made me a bit sad to come to these conclusions because I am convinced that all the people I met in the Pentecostal church were very sincere, very in love with God and meant very well. Apparently they were just all deceived ... I guess?

We are all deceived to some degree, and deceive ourselves, supposing what we say to be of some substance. But none of us is up to the whole truth, not only emotionally, and as concerns conscience, but simply mentally. We do not have knowledge that we will have when we see him as he is, and realize the full-brunt of what he has done —what he has made. Up till then, I think, we are ignorant children, speaking, as CS Lewis put it, "the babel we think we mean."

 

[makesends]

If it's a "Spiritual Gift" (1 cor 12) then "the necessity for Practice to get it right" would be an indication that it's not from the Holy Spirit at all. why would you have to "Practice" something that's given to you in finished form, and all you have to do is speak it??

Hello, Bob. In finished form? Why assume that?

Not that I disagree with the premise —(I'm a huge skeptic of the sign gifts as commonly displayed, not to mention the immaturity and really sorry theology that seems to accompany them)— but the logic by which you arrived there, in the end would seem to deny that Paul needed to be taught anything, since it was given him to be the Apostle to the Gentiles, and the words that he wrote were by the unction of the Holy Spirit. There would be no need for Bible Colleges to train pastors, nor the 3 years of Christ's ministry. As the Self-Determinists like to say, no need for the lives we lead, since God would just speak it all into existence.

 

[Mr GLee]

Yup - sometimes I wonder why I bother with giving testimony at all. Cessationists will believe what they've been taught.

If it's a "Spiritual Gift" (1 cor 12) then "the necessity for Practice to get it right" would be an indication that it's not from the Holy Spirit at all. why would you have to "Practice" something that's given to you in finished form, and all you have to do is speak it??

I would offer.

Spiritual gift? A lying sign to wonder or marvel after. Sounds like a gift of the king of lying sign to wonder tafter his tool .

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

" Charismatic" false glory producing false pride . The lust of the flesh ,lust of the eye the two building blocks of false pride

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Spiritual always represent the unseen eternal things of God . called faith

Tongues( prophecy) one of a few used as a lying wonder . another baptism a ceremonial shadow it adds nothing to a believer not a sign to wonder after , laying on of hands etc .(form of prayer)

If a sign was needed as something to use as evidence .I would think reading the bible would be enough between God and oneself .the hidden witness. The go into the closet.

We walk by or are given a understanding of the faithfulness of our unseen Head Christ . No such thing as "sign gift" .Spiritual unseen eternal gifts yes

Will he find His unseen spiritual work working in the hearts of new creatures???? FIND FAITH Or will he find men serving lying signs to wonder and marvel after, personal experience .as those who again do seek after lies Called the evil generation, natural born mankind . They seek after signs to marvel wonder. Rather than prophecy the spiritual signified . . . . . Tongue of God no wondering.


Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Why would you have to do it at all?

Why would you NOT WANT to do something that God gifts, and that "Edifies" you (1 Cor 14:4). It Seems to me that an "Edified Christian" would be a more effective minister. The AG Missionary record speaks for itself.

 

[Mr GLee]

Why would you NOT WANT to do something that God gifts, and that "Edifies" you (1 Cor 14:4). It Seems to me that an "Edified Christian" would be a more effective minister. The AG Missionary record speaks for itself.

Spiritual gifts are unseen. not edifying oneself in false pride

Gifts coming from our invisible God . Not gifts we offer to him. self edify. God does not say thank you for me empowering you to do what I wiled you to.

Arron's two sons on the first day of entering the priesthood had all the ceremonial clothing which is used as shadow of Christ to come as a ceremonial shadow.

The two brothers got togethter and came up with a plan of false fame $$$$$ show time ready to self edify . They added what was called strange self edifying fire .(lights camera action )they were consumed not a hint of smoke on the clothing Ceremonial gospel sign to the whole world not to those he used to display them by Again as if they were the gift of God that they gave to God Look daddy I did it LOL No good boy for you this time was given.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Spiritual gifts are unseen. not edifying oneself in false pride

Meaningless.

 

[Arial]

Why would you NOT WANT to do something that God gifts, and that "Edifies" you (1 Cor 14:4). It Seems to me that an "Edified Christian" would be a more effective minister. The AG Missionary record speaks for itself.

Long ago, when I first became a Christian, I was in charismatic, tongue speaking churches. I spoke in tongues myself, because, being a newborn as I was, I trusted and believed what I was being told. I did not have to practice in order to do so. I just had to intentionally let go of my mind. However God gave us a mind, and expects us to use it to gain understanding and knowledge of His word.

I watched all the tongue speaking around me, and weighed it within myself, and observed that there was no edification of the church, or in myself, or in anyone around me. Unless you count an emotional high as a self edification. All I saw was emotion gone rampant, but no change in the person (including myself) or in the church. I saw churches that lauded themselves is ALIVE!, mature, exhibitors of spiritual awakening and Christian maturity. But there was no awakening to the word of God----it was not even considered necessary----no expansion on or expounding on His word, no learning at all. Just a whole flock of people laughing and crying and falling down, and jumping, and dancing, faces enraptured, utterly mindless, just pure emotional excess. Basically, in essence, making a spectacle of the Holy Spirit---look at me, look at me, look how much God loves me, how spiritual I am!

That is my experience with tongues, though I realize, and that too from my own self, that most do not have that last remark as their intent, and it is far from their knowledge as knowledge has left the room anyway, and so am not condemning individuals, merely giving my opinion based on observation. I have a sister who trusts in it through having never examined it biblically except in only the one way, and I have no doubts she belongs to Jesus. Which is really all that matters.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Hello, Bob. In finished form? Why assume that?

Because when the Holy Spirit Gives the GIFT, it's given as it is to be ministered. A Prophet doesn't "Make up" intellectually the prophetic word, He delivers it as he receives it.

Not that I disagree with the premise —(I'm a huge skeptic of the sign gifts )

There's no such thing as "Sign gifts". That's Man's phony categorization. There's ONLY GIFTS, which the Holy Spirit gives, as needed. If you SICK, the Gift of tongues would be useless, while the "Gifts of Healings" would come in handy. Sometimes a GIFT could function as a "sign", but Gifts are gifts, and ministered by the Holy Spirit as needed. The list in 1 Cor 12 isn't inclusive.

There would be no need for Bible Colleges

And yet the Ministry if TEACHING is listed as a valid ministry.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I would offer.

Spiritual gift? A lying sign to wonder or marvel after. Sounds like a gift of the king of lying sign to wonder tafter his tool .

2 Thessalonians 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

" Charismatic" false glory producing false pride . The lust of the flesh ,lust of the eye the two building blocks of false pride

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Spiritual always represent the unseen eternal things of God . called faith

Tongues( prophecy) one of a few used as a lying wonder . another baptism a ceremonial shadow it adds nothing to a believer not a sign to wonder after , laying on of hands etc .(form of prayer)

If a sign was needed as something to use as evidence .I would think reading the bible would be enough between God and oneself .the hidden witness. The go into the closet.

We walk by or are given a understanding of the faithfulness of our unseen Head Christ . No such thing as "sign gift" .Spiritual unseen eternal gifts yes

Will he find His unseen spiritual work working in the hearts of new creatures???? FIND FAITH Or will he find men serving lying signs to wonder and marvel after, personal experience .as those who again do seek after lies Called the evil generation, natural born mankind . They seek after signs to marvel wonder. Rather than prophecy the spiritual signified . . . . . Tongue of God no wondering.


Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

SO this would be the Cessationist point of view.

The existence of the FALSE, doesn't eliminate the presence of the REAL.

Reject 'em if you please.

 

[Mr GLee]

Meaningless.

Did you study? Or like Perter our brother in the Lord the lord teaching two walking together as on in a personal relationship.
When the unseen head our Holy father rele it to ihim not revealed from Peter . he blessed Peter. Peter deceived thought the Lord should bless his dying flesh and blood he rebuked the Lord and forbid the Son of man Jesus from doing the will of the Holy Father .


Mathew 16: 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Flesh and blood Peter delivered it to himself false pride . . I will ascend to the clouds of the presence of God Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy against the Son of man Jesus no forgiveness against the invisible head Christ our Holy Father

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I watched all the tongue speaking around me, and weighed it within myself, and observed that there was no edification of the church, or in myself, or in anyone around me.

So 1 Cor 14:4 is a LIE in your belief.

I don't pretend to unsderstand the whole meaning/effect of it, but the Bible SAYS IT, and that settles it. In SOME WAY, Peaking the words The Holy Spirit gives me that I don't understand are "edifying". Biblically the Holy Spirit prays without me having to say anything. (Rom 8:26)

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Did you study? Or like Perter our brother in the Lord the lord teaching two walking together as on in a personal relationship.
When the unseen head our Holy father rele it to ihim not revealed from Peter . he blessed Peter. Peter deceived thought the Lord should bless his dying flesh and blood he rebuked the Lord and forbid the Son of man Jesus from doing the will of the Holy Father .


Mathew 16: 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Flesh and blood Peter delivered it to himself false pride . . I will ascend to the clouds of the presence of God Peter was forgiven of his blasphemy against the Son of man Jesus no forgiveness against the invisible head Christ our Holy Father

I have NO IDEA what you're trying to say.

 

[Mr GLee]

I have NO IDEA what you're trying to say.

its not hard to understand , define spiritual understanding .Is it something seen?

 

[Mr GLee]

SO this would be the Cessationist point of view.

The existence of the FALSE, doesn't eliminate the presence of the REAL.

Reject 'em if you please.

No all the spiritual unseen gifts still apply except for no new revelations we have the prfect.

What make you think I am Cessationist ? What is it you think I am ceasing ?