The Gift of Healing.

[Dave]

Yes, there are reasons why it happened that way. Just like there are reasons one with the gift of healing doesn't go walking into a hospital and heals everybody.

Lees

But yet, nobody was turned away because they didn't have enough faith. The man Jesus healed didn't even know who He was. There was nobody being excluded from the pool but that man, for physical limitations, and Jesus healed him Himself. I'm not sure how that makes your point that somehow overrides the scripture that I posted. Show me one person with the gift of healing that can do this...

Luke 4:40 When the sun was setting, all those who had any that were sick with various diseases brought them to Him; and He laid His hands on every one of them and healed them.

Jesus healed them all.

Acts 5:12-16 And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people. And they were all with one accord in Solomon's Porch. so that they brought the sick out into the streets and laid them on beds and couches, that at least the shadow of Peter passing by might fall on some of them. Also a multitude gathered from the surrounding cities to Jerusalem, bringing sick people and those who were tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all healed.

Peter healed them all.

Acts 28:9 So when this was done, the rest of those on the island who had diseases also came and were healed.

Paul healed them all.

This verified the message and the messenger. As the scripture that I already provided shows. You cannot verify the message or the messenger if you cannot do that. Also keep in mind the point that I already made, that in that list of gifts, miracles was listed separate from various kinds of healings. That means they were actually doctors who had specific medical fields. Mabey one with broken bones. Another stomach illnesses, and so on. All this was gone over already.

Where do the faith healers go when they are sick?

Healer? Heal Thyself!

 

[Dave]

Charismatic covers a lot of there are moderate, extreme, and downright crazy congregations. But to link a theology Reformed Charismatic, I think they would have to be letting go of some of the systematics that went into Reformed theology. Kind of like a church called Reformed Lutheran I know of who had George Tiller serving in the church. He was shot dead in the lobby one Sunday. Tiller, in case you didn't know, was the country's number one baby killer, aborting fetuses in late term. You could see the smoke coming from the stack of his depository furnace, the ash falling on the city.

As to Piper, I have not read much of his work or listened to it. But I know he is considered a pillar, if you will, of Calvinism today.

I don't know how the two theologies could survive together. One is grounded in humanism, the other the Bible. I can't imagine how Charismatics could remain Charismatics within reformed circles, and vise versa. The only thing I can thing of is it would need to be a hijacking of a label. Like some Republicans in politics are called RINO's, 'Republican in name only'. This is one way our enemy likes to get a foot in the door and lead some estray. Making unity priority over truth. Kind of like the Catholic ecumenism. etc.

Dave

 

[Arial]

I don't know how the two theologies could survive together. One is grounded in humanism, the other the Bible. I can't imagine how Charismatics could remain Charismatics within reformed circles, and vise versa. The only thing I can thing of is it would need to be a hijacking of a label. Like some Republicans in politics are called RINO's, 'Republican in name only'. This is one way our enemy likes to get a foot in the door and lead some estray. Making unity priority over truth. Kind of like the Catholic ecumenism. etc.

Dave

I agree. It seems more a way to get young people and those with itching ears and the loaves and fishes people into the church building in hopes they will hear and believe the gospel. Now maybe they actually do teach and preach the actual Bible in an expository and doctrinal way. That I cannot say. But they are also compromising their own position imo.

 

[Lees]

But yet, nobody was turned away because they didn't have enough faith. The man Jesus healed didn't even know who He was. There was nobody being excluded from the pool but that man, for physical limitations, and Jesus healed him Himself. I'm not sure how that makes your point that somehow overrides the scripture that I posted. Show me one person with the gift of healing that can do this...

Luke 4:40 When the sun was setting, all those who had any that were sick with various diseases brought them to Him; and He laid His hands on every one of them and healed them.

Jesus healed them all.

Acts 5:12-16 And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people. And they were all with one accord in Solomon's Porch. so that they brought the sick out into the streets and laid them on beds and couches, that at least the shadow of Peter passing by might fall on some of them. Also a multitude gathered from the surrounding cities to Jerusalem, bringing sick people and those who were tormented by unclean spirits, and they were all healed.

Peter healed them all.

Acts 28:9 So when this was done, the rest of those on the island who had diseases also came and were healed.

Paul healed them all.

This verified the message and the messenger. As the scripture that I already provided shows. You cannot verify the message or the messenger if you cannot do that. Also keep in mind the point that I already made, that in that list of gifts, miracles was listed separate from various kinds of healings. That means they were actually doctors who had specific medical fields. Mabey one with broken bones. Another stomach illnesses, and so on. All this was gone over already.

Where do the faith healers go when they are sick?

Healer? Heal Thyself!

All at the pool of Bethesda had faith. That is why they were there. Yet Jesus healed only one. This overides the silly comment you made about if one has the gift of healing why doesn't he go to a hospital and heal everyone?

Why couldn't Paul heal himself of his thorn in the flesh? (2 Cor. 12:7-8)

Why couldn't Paul heal Timothy? (1 Tim. 5:23)

Why couldn't Paul heal Epaphroditus? (Philippians 2:27)

Why couldn't Paul heal Trophimus? (2 Tim. 4:20)

Lees

 

[Lees]

We must keep in mind that 'spiritual gifts' given to each member in the Body of Christ is for one purpose only. That is to minister to the Body of Christ. They are not given for believers to go out into the world and display them like a circus show. They are not given to prove the message and the messenger. They are given for the edification of the Body. Read (1 Cor. 12:1-30)

And that 'Body' of gifted believers is displayed in the local churches. And it is within the confines of that local church, that local Body, that the believer is to function and exercise his gift. All the while under the watch and care of the elders or spiritual leaders in the church.

Again, a believer who thinks he has the gift of healing, if he goes into a hospital to heal everyone, is out of touch with God at the outset. For every believers gift is for the Body. And if a believer with the gift of healing asks his leaders if he can take his gift on the road, then the answer will be, or should be, no. Your gift is not a carnival show.

So it should be clear how important the Body is to the effectual working of the gifts. And if the Body is constantly taught and teaching that the gifts have ceased, do you think the gifts will be present? The believers still have them, but they are not openly displayed as, after all, they have ceased, they say.

Something to consider.

Lees

 

[Arial]

We must keep in mind that 'spiritual gifts' given to each member in the Body of Christ is for one purpose only. That is to minister to the Body of Christ. They are not given for believers to go out into the world and display them like a circus show. They are not given to prove the message and the messenger. They are given for the edification of the Body. Read (1 Cor. 12:1-30)

And that 'Body' of gifted believers is displayed in the local churches. And it is within the confines of that local church, that local Body, that the believer is to function and exercise his gift. All the while under the watch and care of the elders or spiritual leaders in the church.

Again, a believer who thinks he has the gift of healing, if he goes into a hospital to heal everyone, is out of touch with God at the outset. For every believers gift is for the Body. And if a believer with the gift of healing asks his leaders if he can take his gift on the road, then the answer will be, or should be, no. Your gift is not a carnival show.

So it should be clear how important the Body is to the effectual working of the gifts. And if the Body is constantly taught and teaching that the gifts have ceased, do you think the gifts will be present? The believers still have them, but they are not openly displayed as, after all, they have ceased, they say.

Something to consider.

Lees

Well that is as good an excuse as any I guess. Kind of like when Word of Faith teaches that faith is a force that activates God's power, and if doubt exists, it nullifies the faith. And then they quickly instill automatic doubt by saying faith won't work if there is sin in your life.

Did Jesus only heal believers or did he heal unbelievers. Did he only do it within congregations? Did the apostles verify the authority of their message with miracles to unbelievers or believers? Who would need the message of the gospel most verified? One who already believes it or one who does not?

When I had been a believer only a few months, my mother was diagnosed with cancer and was scheduled for surgery. I asked my pastor to come and pray with her the evening before. (He was always going on and on about all the people he healed and all the miracles in his life.) He asked if she had been saved. I said no. He said, then he could not pray for her.

I was shocked to put it mildly. But I remembered that that is not how Jesus looked at it at all. A great many of those he healed did not even know who he was, in fact I would say none did, as that had not been fully revealed. The miracles themselves were his witness. And I knew I could pray for her. So I sat with her and did so. She was seventy five at the time and I prayed for the surgery to be successful and to keep her safe. It was and she was with us for another 20 years with never a recurrence. But it was me sitting down and praying with her that was the instrument that broke the hold of Christian Science over her, that was the means of her hearing the voice of the Shepherd (not my voice) and following him.

The gift of healing was given to the early church as a witness. And there is no record or even implication that any but the apostles had it, or those appointed to plant churches. It was always accompanied by the gospel. The Bible does not make a big deal out of it at all. It was a witness that what they taught was from God. We do not need that witness in our gatherings anymore. The Bible is the witness.

Does that mean God no longer heals physical ailments? No. If anyone is healed by any means, it is of God. But to keep it into the category of what might be called miraculous (completely outside of the natural), it does not mean that he never does that either. But it is not common and it is not a gift that a person possesses, and it is not a gift to the church exclusively, or to all churches.

 

[Dave]

All at the pool of Bethesda had faith. That is why they were there. Yet Jesus healed only one. This overides the silly comment you made about if one has the gift of healing why doesn't he go to a hospital and heal everyone?

Why couldn't Paul heal himself of his thorn in the flesh? (2 Cor. 12:7-8)

Why couldn't Paul heal Timothy? (1 Tim. 5:23)

Why couldn't Paul heal Epaphroditus? (Philippians 2:27)

Why couldn't Paul heal Trophimus? (2 Tim. 4:20)

Lees

At the pool of Bethesda, it was unique circumstances, Lees. I think the fact that Jesus didn't even give His name should be a hint that He was trying to stay low key at that moment. Nobody was turned down. They had the pool. Only one didn't have access to it.

 

[Lees]

At the pool of Bethesda, it was unique circumstances, Lees. I think the fact that Jesus didn't even give His name should be a hint that He was trying to stay low key at that moment. Nobody was turned down. They had the pool. Only one didn't have access to it.

What does it matter that Jesus didn't give His name. He had the power to heal anyone at anytime...correct? So why didn't he heal all those poor people who wanted to be healed miraculously?

Everyone not healed by Christ that day was turned down. The one that was healed didn't ask him for it either.

Does it bother you that Christ could have healed them all but didn't?

Lees